Can Trump keep up the momentum?; Walker talks New Hampshire forum, GOP debate

Presidential candidate is moving up in the national polls on 'The Kelly File'


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," August 3, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, just three days away from the first republican primary debate in a series of major new polls redefines the field. As the candidates get a chance to size each other up in a face to face forum tonight.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. At this time tomorrow we will know the final lineup for this Thursday's GOP primary debated hosted by Fox News in Cleveland, Ohio. There are 17 republican candidates. The largest GOP field in modern U.S. political history and the polling has been intense. Right now in a Fox News poll just released a few hours ago, Donald Trump is surging and Ohio Governor John Kasich is also moving up. Fourteen 14 of the 17 republican candidates got together tonight for a forum in New Hampshire. Have you heard about this? A chance for these politicians to sharpen their message ahead of the real showdown on Thursday. And here's a little of what we saw.


GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, R-N.J., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have to have a concrete plan. You can't just speak in generalities, vague generalities of folks, 71 percent of federal spending right now is between entitlements and debt service. It is not the American people who are failing the entitlement system, it's the leaders of our country who are failing the American people by not telling them the truthful.  

DR. BEN CARSON, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: First of all, Washington would say you can't get health savings account to the indigent because they're too stupid. And they wouldn't be able to manage them. They think everybody is like them. But the fact that's not true. And you know, in fact, you know, they said that about food stamps and people learned how to manage food stamps.

FMR. GOV. JEB BUSH, R-FLA., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would take the advice of the military very seriously. We need a strategy first. This president hasn't for two time has admitted that we don't have a strategy as it relates to ISIS. It's pretty amazing.

CARLY FIORINA, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: How long have we been talking about the border being unsecure? Thirty years. How long have we known it was insecure? Thirty years. How long has it been insecure?  Thirty years. We talk a lot at election time but somehow we never solve these festering problems. It is because the status quo is in-charge.  Leaders challenge the status quo.

GOV. SCOTT WALKER, R-WIS., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For example on our schools, we no longer have seniority or tenure. We can hire and fire based on merit, we can pay based on performance. I mean, we can put the best and the brightest in the classrooms. And four years later, graduating ranks were up, third grading rating scores are up. ACT scores and our second best in the country. I think in working in a blue state like Wisconsin, it's not too late for Wisconsin, it's not too late for America.

SEN. RAND PAUL, R-KY., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I am the one candidate who will do that. I am the one candidate who has stood up to the President and say, no more, we're not going to let you collect our phone records indiscriminately with the generalized warrant."

SEN. TED CRUZ , R-TEXAS: The only way we're going to turn this country around, stop the spending that's bankrupting our kids and grandkids. Stop the abuse on our constitution. The abuse on our liberties is with a leader with a demonstrated history of standing up to the Washington cartel.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R-FLA., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What we need now are leaders that understand this new era that has clear ideas that I have offered, about how to modernize our economic policies to fully benefit from all the opportunities of the new economy and also ideas about how to restore. Not just the American prestige in the world but our military power, our ability to stand with our allies and our ability to anticipate - -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Senator. We need to go.

RUBIO: -- before it develops and threatens the safety of our people.


KELLY: Wow! Joining me now, Fox News digital politics editor Chris Stirewalt. It's fascinating, isn't it? To see them, you know, practicing up to before they have to stand next to each other. In this forum, they were on a standalone basis. And you can see them smiling, and laughing at each other and sort of being good nature about it. Trump was not there.  But on Thursday night, it's going to be a different story. It's going to mano y mano. Elbow to elbow. I don't know how you say elbow in Spanish.  And they're going to be dusting it up a lot more. Dry run? This was separately independent. Because it took place in New Hampshire.  

CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: Well, it took place in New Hampshire. As a coalition of South Carolina, Iowa and New Hampshire and these early states who say that they should have their voice.  But you know what's interesting? An amazing thing is happened on the way to the FOX debate. The polls on the early stage end up looking a lot like now. The orders are reversed. Some states, Walker is number one. But he's number two. Someplace else. And Trump is number one here and here and out there. But when you think the average of the polls, it looks an awful lot like the national polls.

So what is happening is we the FOX News Channel has created the pivot point. Or the Republicans have created the pivot point by setting their schedule. But this debate, the FOX News Facebook debate in Cleveland in Cleveland is the trigger point. We're not just the candidates get serious but the voters get serious. As they answer the questions to pollsters.  They think about things in a different way. Because they're not really casting their vote for president when they answer these pollsters. They're saying, who do you want to see on the stage? And that's what we'll find out tomorrow.

KELLY: Donald Trump in all these polls is surging.


KELLY: In the one poll he has got three to one over Walker. Three to one over Walker. That's our poll. The Fox News poll. He has got 26 percent support. Walker has got nine. Walker is down 15 percent from mid- July. So, Trump seems to be taking from Walker. There you see it. Look at the numbers. Time after time, Trump has said things that have been controversial and the pundits have said he's done. He's not done.

STIREWALT: He's smoking like Joe Frazier. But the question is, does it last? How long does it last? I think the broad expectation is that it can't last forever. Either Donald Trump will run the kind of --


STIREWALT: Because one of two thing seems about to happen. I've been wrong before and maybe wrong this time. But one of two things seems about to happen. Either Donald Trump will continue to run what he started to show which is a more controlled campaign and he will tired of it and voters will tired of him if he acts too much like a politician. Conversely, if he remains mercurial or turns to being mercurial and over the top bombast and he does that, then he will blowout instead of fading out.

KELLY: But what is the evidence of that? Because what we've seen so far is several controversial comments but no fall in the polls. In fact, just the opposite, a spike and --

STIREWALT: I highly doubt that the people who are supporting Donald Trump especially independents, not Republicans but independents, republican leaning independents who are coming in to support Donald Trump, care particularly whether he is polished or politic or whether he sounds like a politician or uses measures and phrases. What they want is a wrecking ball. They want somebody will come in and rip it up. They want him.

KELLY: That should be his campaign team, that Miley Cyrus song.


STIREWALT: And air flowing in the wind and riding on the wrecking ball. It's got to be hot.

KELLY: He can do very well with that. Even better than what he's doing.

STIREWALT: He can come on stage with that.

KELLY: What's the game plan of these other guys? Bush, Walker?  These guys who are hovering. They used to be number one. They're not anymore. They're now number two, number three. But they lag him by a lot.  What is their game plan likely to be going into Thursday night?

STIREWALT: Bush, Walker, you're in a different category. Those guys need to not have a blowout. They need to look like they're presidential.  They need to look plausible. For the other candidates, and that probably means avoiding Donald Trump. If Donald Trump attacks them, they've got to have an answer. For the other guys, the question is, do you want to pick a fight with the Donald? Do you, if you are John Kasich, let's say John Kasich makes the stage, as it looks like he is likely to right now? If he makes the stage, does he want to get out there and get in Donald Trump's face? Does he want to be the guy, because he thinks he is a pretty tough guy. That he is going to be the guy who says, Donald, get out of here, you're fired. And by the way, drinking game. The first candidate who uses you're fired on Donald, everybody has to chug a whole beer.


KELLY: Tell me because I'll be moderating it. Later? I guess, we'll do it later?


KELLY: We like drinking games as much as the next guy and gal. Okay.  So it is all about Donald Trump. Trump Nado as you referred to it before.  That's what you say about it Thursday night.

STIREWALT: Well, yes. But it is also about which one of these people look like they could be president of the United States? It is all fun and game until somebody gets to a podium. This is the test that everybody has to pass. This would be the first time that they're reeling an identifiable presidential setting.

KELLY: Because look -- I just want you to pause you for one second.  I'll just want to raise this one poll of you. I want your comments on it.  And it shows that Trump while very popular in the polls, also has these high negatives where you see, look, 33 percent say they would never vote for Donald Trump. He is almost at the top of that poll. You know, behind like Pataki. They're really against Pataki for some reason. And then Walker is at the bottom of this poll. And that's where you want to be.  Very few Republicans say they would never vote for Scott Walker.

STIREWALT: Right. And you want to be broadly acceptable but desirable to a few. You want to be broadly acceptable and that a broad swath of Republicans say, yes, this guy seems okay. But you want to be loyally loved by a few. What Trump has is a high intensity core, surrounded by some bandwagon riders. But he also has a growing number, or at least a stable number of individuals who say no, way, no how. What happens to those people? The stronger Trump looks, the more they consolidate. And we've said it before, I'll say it again. The greatest beneficiary of the Trump Nado still stands to be Jeb Bush. We've talked about this for a long time. But the weirder things look, the more chaotic things look, the more likely voters are coalesce behind Jeb Bush in an effort to try to prevent Trump from getting the nomination.

KELLY: Uh-mm. So fascinating. We've been having debate meetings every day. Stirewalt is on them as well. So, he knows the question.

STIREWALT: They're totally easy. No problem.

KELLY: He's not going to tell you what they are. They're not easy.  They're not easy for anybody. And that's what we owe our viewers. Great to see you.

STIREWALT: You bet. See you there.

KELLY: So, what does it say that Trump continues to surge? Perhaps at Scott Walker's expense. Guess who is here next? Huh? Governor Scott Walker. He's here next and we will talk with him about the road ahead.  And a drama new twist in the Hillary e-mail scandal coming up. A judge, whoa, compelling Mrs. Clinton and two of her most trusted aides to discuss her unprecedented e-mails set up as secretary of State under penalty of perjury.

Now, Ed Henry is covering the Clinton camp. Judge Napolitano is here on the legal fallout in moments. And I hate to say I told you so but trust me when I tell you, I told you so. Remember when they said they weren't going to be looking back and looking at the old e-mails to see if they were responses and it is public request? And I said yes, you will? We'll talk about it in a minutes.

Plus, breaking news on the Iraq veteran turned police officer who was murdered on the job this weekend. We'll look at what the police chief in this case is now saying about the Black Lives Matter debate. Just ahead.


TONEY ARMSTRONG, MEMPHIS DIRECTOR OF POLICE: We have to ask ourselves, do all lives matter, regardless of race, creed, color, economic status, what profession that person holds, all lives matter. And this is just a reminder of how dangerous this job is.




WALKER: I've won three elections in four years. The last two which I won after a lot of people who were upset on the Democrats set of things.  And we did it by making big bold actions and got results because of that.  You know, I would love to go against whether it is Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden. I'm a new fresh face versus a name from the past. I'm someone from outside of Washington with a proven track record and most of all, I've gotten things done in a blue state.


KELLY: That was presidential candidate Governor Scott Walker earlier tonight on New Hampshire with remarks on how he plans to win the top billing on the republican ticket. Experts say, Walker will face tough questions on his state, Wisconsin, American Unions and women's issues as the race towards one republican nominee is up. My next guest is pulling in second place when you average many of the country's national polls.

And joining me now, someone we're sure will be on the debates stage on Thursday. Republican presidential candidate and Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker. Governor, good to see you tonight.

So, I don't want to make this all about Donald Trump but I want to start with his poll numbers since he is three-to-one over you in the Fox News poll. So, he's killing you in that poll. You say you aim to stay above the fray. And the headlines about you in Wisconsin, don't expect him to be throwing punches. Do you plan on taking Trump on at this debate?

WALKER: Well, I'm not going to take anybody. I'm not talking about what I'm for. I think people, voters are tired of politicians who tell what you they're against and who they're against. They want to know what you're for. But I think part of the reason why those polls are that ways because people want a fighter. And right now, they think Mr. Trump is a fighter. I think part of the reason why I'm polling in second is because people think I'm a fighter. I think in the end, what will make the difference and how we win the nomination, is people realize they don't just want a fighter. They want someone who can fight and I've the only one in this race who shown consistently on the common sense conservative forums that I can win either in a blue state. I can clearly fight and win in America.

KELLY: One thing people seem to like about Trump is, you know, he is exciting. He is a celebrity. He knows how to work a crowd and talk in a way that excites people, are you excited? Do you think the voters feel that way about you?


WALKER: Well, I think at least in the Midwest, people have picked me three times in the last four years because I got things done. I think that's what really exciting. I think the biggest sentiment out there right now is people frustrated with Washington. They're particularly frustrated with Republicans in Washington, they feel like, hey, we elected a House, we just elected the Senate, they haven't repealed ObamaCare. We still got the Iran deal. We got all these problems going on. Why are not Republicans doing more? And so, I get that sentiment out there. But I think that's where in the end over time as we spend the time campaigning across America, they'll going to say, yes, we want a fighter. We want someone who stands up and takes on the big fight. But we also want to win that fight both in the election and ultimately in terms of getting results and I think that's where our track record raises to the top.

KELLY: How much damage do you think this do if any to the republican brand? I mean, Trump criticized virtually every republican running. Some other Republicans have refused to do that saying, I'm going to follow the Reagan rule. To the extent the candidates are slinging mud at each other.  How much damage do you think it will do to the eventual nominee?

WALKER: Yes. In the end, this is such a great field. I think it just shows the enthusiasm the Republicans have across the board throughout this country. And as long as most of our attention is focused on how bad Hillary Clinton would be as a presidential candidate. And how even worst she'd be as the president of the United States, I mean, think about this, in everywhere in the world that Hillary Clinton has touched is worse off today than it was before she and the President took office. That's what we need to focus in on, I think in light of this recent emails, you know, I would love to point out that she would be a pretty good deceiver in chief, certainly not someone you can trust to be the commander-in-chief. And that's where I'm going to spend my time focusing on how bad Hillary Clinton can be.

KELLY: What do you do in the next few days? What do you do to get ready? Do you get murder boarded? You know, people sit around and fire questions at you. Do you have somebody playing me? Somebody playing Brett? Somebody playing Chris?

WALKER: No. The next couple days, you really just kind of relax.  For the first time in about two weeks, I'm going to be back home to see my beautiful wife Tonette and my boys Matt and Alex. And then Thursday morning, get this, I'm actually going to be at the kickoff of for the Wisconsin State Fair. A tradition that I've never missed. And then I'm going to hop on a plane and come and join you in Cleveland.

KELLY: Relax is the plan. I would think twice about that if I were you.

WALKER: Yes, just relax.

KELLY: No, just kidding, just kidding, just kidding. Governor, it's great to see you and I'll see you Thursday night.

WALKER: A pizza join up here in New Hampshire.

KELLY: Very nice. Well, on Thursday, I don't know. There will be skyline chill out in Ohio. It's great to see you.

WALKER: Thank you very much.

KELLY: All the best, sir.

Well, Ed Henry dug up some new details tonight about reports that Vice President Joe Biden may be considering a challenge against Hillary Clinton.  All this as Mrs. Clinton takes a hit in the polls.

Up next, Ed has the Clinton camp's response. And Judge Napolitano is here with some potentially big news about a court order issued to Mrs. Clinton and her top aides. And it is not good. The judge -- not Napolitano, the judge in the case is ticked.

Plus, breaking news in the manhunt for the ex-con accused of killing a police officer in cold blood. And what it means for the national debate over race and law enforcement.


ARMSTRONG: As a community we say so often, there is a theme that Do Black Lives Matter? And at the end of the day we have to ask, do all lives matter?


KELLY: Breaking tonight. New reaction from the Clinton campaign after we saw signs today that Vice President Joe Biden may be considering his own run for the White House. This while Mrs. Clinton takes another hit in the polls. Chief White House correspondent Ed Henry is live in Washington for us tonight. Ed?

ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're telling us tonight they're not really worried. They're going to run their own campaign, Megyn. Democrats close to Clinton as you know have loved the tension so far between Donald Trump and the rest of the crowded republican field but she may now have a civil war of her own as Vice President Biden edges closer to potentially getting into this race. A new FOX poll tonight shows, while Clinton still has a commanding lead, she's reached a new low after self-inflicted wounds over our e-mail server, dropping 10 points since June alone. That's given an opening to Bernie Sanders as well as the Vice President.

The speculation about Biden accelerated after FOX News broke the news last Thursday. The Vice President chief-of-staff met with a top democratic fund-raiser to potentially gauge whether he can raise enough money at this late stage. Now, FOX News confirmed today, the Vice President also brought back two key political advisers who could help put together a campaign.  And look at this Chicago based draft Biden 2016 group. There, "I'm Ridin' with Biden" bumper stickers, they say on the website are sold out. As some of President Obama's top advisors tonight. They're suddenly caught in the middle of this potential fight. Listen.


JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The President certainly believes that a spirited contest would be in the best interests of our party and best interest of our country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has attained the great stature as a senior statesman within the Democratic Party. And does he want to risk all that in a battle that he would be very up-hill?


HENRY: Now, Clinton agent says, they're not panicking about this.  So, it's interesting, the candidate has suddenly decided to start running her first TV ads in Iowa and New Hampshire tomorrow to yet again try to reintroduce herself to voters -- Megyn.


KELLY: Reintroduce? How many times are we going to meet her?


Gosh. All right, Ed, thank you.

Also breaking today for the Clinton campaign, a federal judge.  Unhappy with her. Demanding that the former Secretary of State and two of her most trusted aides go on the record under penalty of perjury for the first time about the private e-mail server that she used as secretary of state.

FOX News senior judicial analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano is here. So, this is one of those Freedom of Information Act request.


KELLY: That was filed against the State Department that they blew off, they gave information and they were not truthful about every place they checked and the extent of the records and this judge has about to had it with all of them?

NAPOLITANO: He has and Friday afternoon he ordered that her two aides whose faces were just on the --  

KELLY: Cheryl Mills and Huma Abedin.

NAPOLITANO: Correct. As well as Mrs. Clinton herself certified, quote, under penalty of perjury, a phrase rarely used by a federal judge.  Never in my experience used by a federal judge when dealing with a present or former federal official. Certify under penalty of perjury, what happened to these e-mails? How did they get from your computer as secretary of state to where they are now? What circuitous rude did they take?

KELLY: And not just you ma'am but your two top aides which is -- basically haven't seen anything from them.  

NAPOLITANO: Now, Remember, Mrs. Clinton is not in a courtroom and she doesn't have a lawyer in the courtroom. This is a lawsuit filed by judicial watch, they watch to a group in Washington, D.C. under the Freedom of Information Act against the State Department looking for her e-mails.  The case was once dismissed because the judge bought the State Department's argument that we don't have --  

KELLY: We gave everything. Well, we gave everything.

NAPOLITANO: Correct. And then the State Department and judicial watch together came back to the judge saying, you have to reopen this case.  We just learn that she's been hiding tens of thousands of e-mails.

KELLY: So, here, just to round back the viewers. Remember when this first came out that Hillary had her own e-mail account and it wasn't on the website and so on. All right. Server. Marie Harf was asked, are you now going to go back and comply with your legal duties to pull Mrs. Clinton's records for all the Freedom of Information Act requests and all the Congressional demands that you at state said you met.


KELLY: And now we find out you didn't even bother to check the server, Hillary Clinton server and so on. And she said no. We're not.  We're not going to go back and look at any of it. And this was the prediction, you were on the show. We talked about it. You and I both agreed with this. This is what we said.


KELLY: She said they will not be going back and examining whether her e-mails were produced in response to FOIA request, Freedom of Information requests that have already come. I have news for you, Marie, yes, you will be doing that. Trust me. Once the lawyers get ahold of you, you will going to be doing it.


NAPOLITANO: Well, that's exactly the situation that she's in now.  Here's another fear of Mrs. Clinton should have. When the government suspected that General Petraeus kept secure documents in a desk drawer in his house in his home, the FBI raided his home to get those documents. The government doesn't suspect that Mrs. Clinton has secure documents. We know she does and she gave a thumb drive to her lawyer who does not have a security clearance.

KELLY: So, why the double standard? Why would they be so enthusiastic about raiding the home of General Petraeus and not Secretary of State Hillary Clinton?

NAPOLITANO: I suggest to you that we would have to ask that to Attorney General Lynch or even the President himself. Mrs. Clinton should be treated like anybody else who is apparently, I'll take that back, obviously violating the law by failing to secure classified documents. An insecure venues not approved by the government.

KELLY: I just want to put it on the board so the viewers can see for themselves what this Judge Sullivan wrote. As related to the FOIA request, this is Freedom of Information request in this case. "The government is here by ordered to request that Mrs. Clinton, Mrs. Abedin, and Miss Mills confirm under penalty of perjury that they have produced all responsive information that was or is in their position as a result of their employment at the State Department."

NAPOLITANO: Look at the date. July 31st. He gave them until August 7th. He just game them a week to do it. And I cannot emphasize to you too much. The significance of this federal judge appointed to the bench by her husband --

KELLY: Not incredible.

NAPOLITANO: -- using the phrase under penalty of perjury. Reminding her, for the first time Mrs. Clinton, you will be under oath. And if you deviate from your obligation to tell the truth, I will know about it and you will bare the --  

KELLY: She was not, as she was supposed to be, required to fill out that OF109 when she left the state. She should have been required to do it. But of course they gave her a pass. This judge has basically said, you'll do it now. You will certify under penalty of perjury that you'll given all the documents you have and if not there will be a consequence.

NAPOLITANO: And if the FBI doesn't get the server and the Congressman Gowdy's committee lacks the authority to get the server, guess what this judge can do. Order the server produced into his courtroom and examined by experts right then and there.

KELLY: That's amazing. I mean, they are not officially parties to the lawsuit. The judge didn't directly ordered these three women to make the certification. They are ordering the State Department to get them but that puts state and Mrs. Clinton in a very difficult position.


KELLY: Great to see you, judge.


KELLY: Well, we also have new reports on reports tonight on reports of possible criminal charges for the navy officer who went after the shooter in last month's massacre in Chattanooga. Is it true we've been investigating?

Plus, there's a major break in the search of an ex-con accused to murdering an Iraq veteran turned police officer. And we'll have that next along with Mark Fuhrman and Mark Hannah who are here on how one police chief is using this case to turn the Black Lives Matter movement on its head.


UNIDENTIFIED CITIZEN: Please, please hurry up!

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: What complex are you man? Are you on the north side or closer to the street, do you know?

UNIDENTIFIED CITIZEN: Forty eight Summer Lane. Forty eight Summer Lane. He's shot!

DISPATCHER: Officer, he's shot.  



KELLY: Breaking tonight, big news in the manhunt for an accused cop killer. Ex-con Tremaine Wilborn allegedly gunned down Memphis Police Officer, Shawn Bolton, after Bolton approached the car, Wilborn was inside of on Saturday night. Wilborn reportedly turned himself in just a short while ago and had a disturbing message for the police chief in this case.  Trace Gallagher has the story live from the Breaking News Desk, Trace.

TRACE GALLAGHER: Megyn, the suspect 29-year-old Tremaine Wilborn walked in to the U.S. Marshall's Office with his attorney and his family for allegedly shooting and killing the Officer Shawn Bolton. Wilborn had been on the run for two days. The story highlights why police across the country say there is no such thing as a routine stop on. On Saturday night, Officer Bolton saw an illegally parked car on a Memphis side street.  He pulled in front of the car. Turn on his spotlight. But when he approached the vehicle, police say Wilborn confronted the officer, fought with him, shot him multiple times, then fled. Neighbors who heard the shots tried to call 911 but said it was busy so they used Officer Bolton's squad car radio to notify police. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please, please hurry up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What complex are you, man? Are you on the north side or closer to the street?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Summer Lane, 48 Summer Lane.



GALLAGHER: Police say Officer Bolton apparently interrupted a drug deal because a small baggy of marijuana was found inside the car. Tremaine Wilborn was out on probation after being convicted of armed robbery in 2006. Buying or selling drugs was a violation of his supervised release.  Yesterday, the Memphis Police Director said Bolton was gunned down for less than two grams of pot and called the suspect a coward, and it turns out the suspect was listening. Listen.


TONEY ARMSTRONG, MEMPHIS DIRECTOR OF POLICE: He wanted to make it a point to say I want you to know one thing. And I asked what that was, and he said I want you to know that one, I'm not a cold-blooded killer and two, I'm not a coward.


GALLAGHER: Officer Bolton was a former Marine who served a year in Iraq. His friends and family call him an avid reader and weight lifter who always wanted to be a good cop. His funeral, Megyn, is set for this Thursday.

KELLY: Trace, thank you. So the manhunt may be over. But this case is only adding to a debate that has been raging for months. Watch as the Director of the Memphis Police Department shares his message for the Black Lives Matter Movement.


ARMSTRONG: We say so often, there is a theme, and do black lives matter? And at the end of the day, we have to ask ourselves. Do all lives matter regardless of race, creed, color, economic status, what profession that person holds. All lives matter. And this is just a reminder of how dangerous this job is.


KELLY: Joining me now, Mark Fuhrman, who is a Fox News Contributor and Former LAPD Homicide Detective, and Mark Hannah, who is a Partner at the Truman National Security Project, and adjunct Professor of Media Studies at the News School. Thank you both for being here. So Mark -- Mark Fuhrman so interesting to hear him say that about the black lives matter movement. And yet listen to the message from Melissa Harris Perry, the one with the crazy earrings issue and all that, do you remember that.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The answer to black lives matter is not white lives matter. No. Whatever you do, that's not the right answer.


KELLY: So that required a little set-up, my apologies. What she was ripping on Governor Martin O'Malley for saying all lives matter. And she was saying no, listen up, democratic a candidate, that's not what you say.  You know what? Tell it to that man right there who is out there on the beat working it. Your thoughts on it, Mark Fuhrman.

MARK FUHRMAN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I'm sorry, Megyn. When you hear the police chief and you hear certain political activists with opposing views on what lives matter, you just have to pause and say, of course all lives matter. But it seems that only black lives matter when they're killed by white police officers and when they're killed by other black people, I guess it is ok like in Chicago or Baltimore. You don't see this same group chanting the same slogan in those communities. It is only during these situations.

KELLY: What about it, Mark Hannah? Because you're going to see one fraction, one fraction of the coverage in connection with this officer's murder that we saw in connection with some of these other killings that we've seen with police involving African American men.

MARK HANNAH, CAMPAIGN AIDE & KERRY PRES. CAMPS: Right. Well, I think you're going to see it all over the newspapers. Tomorrow, I think you're going to see it on the Nightly News tonight.

KELLY: The coverage of this is going to compare in any way to what we've seen in Ferguson, in Baltimore, all over.

HANNAH: I think any time a police officer is killed in the line of duty, tragically, first of all, let's all agree that tonight, all our thoughts are prayers are with Officer Bolton and his family. This is a night where we should be saying, police lives matter specifically.

KELLY: You can't say that. You can't because you get lectured by this movement that you don't get it.

HANNAH: This is the logic of the movement, Megyn. Any time there is senseless violence committed against any person or group of people, and it is not going heard and attention must be paid, it is ok to say police lives matter. Black lives matter.

KELLY: Where's the hand book? Because I didn't see that, and Governor Martin O'Malley learned the hard way. You certainly can't all lives matter or white lives matter, otherwise you'll be shouted by the group and then Melissa Perry, Mark Fuhrman, will come out and yell at you that don't get it.

FUHRMAN: Of course all lives matter. Police lives. And I appreciate Mark Hannah for saying that. Police lives do matter. They're doing a thankless job in a dangerous situation. Every single moment they're on the street. When something like this happens or they're second guessed a shooting, or it's a bad shooting, it doesn't matter. The media is focusing on the black and the white formula. And there is so many shootings and so many violent confrontations across this country. What happened just 30 miles from my home May 5th? Sergeant Greg Moore was gunned down in a similar situation. But he was white and the suspect was white. And nobody will really know about this nationally. But his life mattered.

KELLY: The thing about it, Mark Hannah -- sorry. The thing about it, Mark Hannah, is that there's no accounting. There's no -- even hat tip to the cop so often. That this is the job they do, this dangerous job where someone could shoot them in the face when they just go up to the car to looking to see whether an arrest should be made. This guy had a long record. He had served about a decade for a bank robbery and he didn't want to get pinched with marijuana even two ounces of marijuana on him. And the police say that's why he shot this cop in the face repeatedly. So this is a danger that cops are up against.

HANNAH: Over two grams of pot. This is the grotesque sort of tragic thing about this. That this officer, all the men and women in blue. They take their lives and sort of put themselves at great personal peril to do their job every day. And this is why the Mayor of Memphis, Mayor Watson mentioned that look, our officers are trained to participate with certain rules of engagement. They're out on the streets every day being confronted by people who have too many unlawful guns.


HANNAH: No rules of engagement, and are sort of armed to the hilt with illegal guns or legal guns in some cases. And so he made an implicit call for common sense, gun legislation without politicizing the death too much. He made a common sense plea for -- look, let's get these guns off the streets. In cities like Memphis, cities New York City, cities like Baltimore are ravages by gun violence. It is why police unions...


KELLY: Then you have these other cities that have these very tight gun laws like Chicago. And it doesn't seem to make any difference. The crime rates are skyrocketing as police feel demoralized, and you have got people in the streets like we saw here in New York City, chanting what do we want, dead cops, when do we want them, now. And sure enough, two New York City Cops wound up dead. There's just got to be more than Fox willing to tell the other side of the story. You guys, thank you both so much.

HANNAH: Thanks, Megyn.

KELLY: Well at the same time we watched this case play out in Memphis, police departments in America's biggest cities are dealing with skyrocketing crime rates as I just mentioned, murders way up, and other violent crimes, not far behind. Rudy Giuliani was the mayor who is credited with cleaning up New York City. He should see New York now. What is driving this? What will it take to turn it around, next.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're tired of standing here saying to the city, do something. You got elected to be a mayor of the city. You now have to step up and do your job.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the World Headquarters of Fox News, it's the Kelly File, with Megyn Kelly.

KELLY: Murder rates in 35 of America's biggest cities are up, an average of 20 percent so far this year. And today, police chiefs from across the country met to discuss the reasons why. Some cities like Houston, Baltimore, and Milwaukee have already seen more than a 50 percent rise in homicides since last year. Just over the weekend, 22 people were shot in New York City. Speaking to a radio show this weekend, the New York Police Commissioner, Bill Bratton warned against a return to the bad old days in New York.


BILL BRATTON: We need to get this right. Because we can't repeat the fiasco of the 1970's, that we're now feeling 40 years later in terms of the homeless issues, the emotionally disturbed. This is too important to get wrong.


KELLY: Rudy Giuliani is the Former Mayor of New York City, and the man credited with turning around the city's crime problem. Mr. Mayor, great to see you.


KELLY: So many New Yorkers just love you because of what you did for this city. And Bill Bratton helped you do it, so why is he achieving such a different result under a different mayor?

GIULIANI: Because he has a different mayor.

KELLY: What's the difference?

GIULIANI: The difference is an exceedingly left wing socialist, I don't know what you want to call it policy that tolerates the idea that people can live on the streets. Let's examine this for a second. If my brother was living on the streets of New York City, what would I do? Would I let him live there? Would I go and intervene and try to get him off the streets and get him into a house, a drug rehabilitation, alcohol rehabilitation, or mental health situation where he gets medicine. So when I was mayor, my police officers would go up to homeless people with a social worker. And we would take them off the streets. You were not allowed to live on the streets of New York City.

KELLY: Totally different story now.

GIULIANI: You do not have a right to live on the streets of New York City.

KELLY: So what is with it this mayor? And other mayors like him in other cities? Is it the kind thing? They don't want to lock up the homeless?

GIULIANI: It is mean, it's inhumane, and it is horrible. When I see a city with homeless people, I see a city that doesn't love people. If you love people, you intervene and help them.

KELLY: They seem to have a different attitude. You look at -- ok this is just an example, City Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito. She worked in a proposal that would make crimes no longer crimes, like public urination, and public consumption of alcohol, and being in a park after dark, and jumping subway turn stiles.

GIULIANI: She has no idea what a civilized society is. She hasn't figured out what western civilization has achieved for us. I mean, public urination indicates some -- particularly if you're doing it constantly, or defecation like the people I've seen.

KELLY: Beginning of the end, look at this New York Post cover, it is the beginning of the end.

GIULIANI: By the way, it affects public health for me and you. So the reality is, if you love people, if your brother was an alcoholic...

KELLY: You do something about it.

GIULIANI: Would you give him money to buy alcohol or would you get him into an alcohol rehabilitation program? So she doesn't treat that person as a person. She treats him as an idea, an ideology, as thinking.  This is problem with socialists, which is what it really is, or liberal or progressive ideology. Progressive is the worst term we've ever used. It is retrogressive. It takes us back to an era in which we were out of control.

KELLY: How bad does it to have get do you think in these cities? You look at Houston, murder rate up 53 percent, Milwaukee up 85 percent. How bad does it have to get before these cities actually do something about it?

GIULIANI: Pretty bad. I only got elected Mayor of New York City in 1993 because there had been 2,224 murders, 2,211 murders, 1,900 murders.  And I got them down to 500 and Bloomberg got them down to 300. It has to get to be a catastrophe before people respond and say, my god, we can't take these ridiculous silly liberal policies which are anti-humane. It is not humane to allow a person to live on the streets. He is only going to get worse. Forty percent of the people living on the streets are probably mentally ill.

KELLY: Yeah and we just saw this weekend, we saw the 20th forcible robbery in Central Park this year, double that of 2014.

GIULIANI: And they kill each other.

KELLY: And it was violent, it was violent and the man was choked and passed out. This is one of the nation's favorite spots. Mr. Mayor, it's great to see you.

GIULIANI: Thank you, Kelly.

KELLY: Up next, unbelievable story on the Navy. Don't go away.


KELLY: Tonight, the Navy is pushing back against reports that it is considering criminal charges for the naval officer who returned fire against the gunman in last month's massacre in Chattanooga, Tennessee.  That rampage claiming the lives of four marines and a navy sailor. Trace Gallagher has been doing the investigating. He is live in our West Coast Newsroom with the story, Trace?

GALLAGHER: Megyn, when Muhammad Abdul-Aziz opened fire on two military facilities in Chattanooga, the head of the Navy facility, Lieutenant Commander Timothy White used his personal firearm to fight back, but the facility is a gun free zone. And this weekend, both Former Senator Jim Webb who also served as Secretary of the Navy, and Former Congressman Allen West, an Army Colonel confirmed that Commander White would be punished. Allen West said "I never liked to be reactionary and follow anything that may just be hyperbole or a conspiracy theory, that's why I held off on addressing this issue until I got confirmation." But the Pentagon and Navy pushing back hard, telling Fox News the story is not true, and it is "Extremely unlikely that Commander White would be charged."  But a defense official added this caveat, "Even if remote, is there a chance White contributed to the chaos and got people killed? Hurt police efforts? We are exploring that?" Arizona Republican Senator, John McCain and Republican Texas Congressman, Mac Thornberry say they plan to include a directive in next year's National Defense Authorization Act that would force the Pentagon to allow troops to carry weapons on base for personal protection. Gun supporters have been calling for the change since the Major Nadal Hassan killed 13 and wounded more than 30 in the Fort Hood shooting in 2009. Army Chief of Staff, General Ray Odierno is concerned about over-arming military personnel, Megyn.

KELLY: All right, Trace, thank you. We'll be right back.


KELLY: Tomorrow night, we will know the final line up for this Thursday's GOP Primary Debate. And we have a big Kelly File line up, Senator Ted Cruz, Governor Mike Huckabee, Mark Thiessen, plus legal guys, Marthur are here. In the meantime, are you going to watch the debate? You can still be a part of it., submit a question right now. See you tomorrow at 9:00.

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