Donald Trump's border trip ignites immigration debate

Presidential candidate takes his campaign to the Mexican border on 'The Kelly File'


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," July 23, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight Donald Trump at the Mexican border and making a big impression.

Welcome to "The Kelly File" on location, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly.  Just over one month ago the billionaire real estate mogul making waves in his announcement declaring his run for president of the United States.  Igniting a firestorm with that speech that suggested Mexico is sending criminals including rapists and murderers over the border illegally into the U.S. in addition to some very nice people. The remarks earned him a direct rebuke from the Mexican government and critics who accused him of bias against Hispanics. But Trump did not waiver. He has stuck by that position and especially when the nation saw an illegal immigrant felon deported five times from this country gunned down the vibrant Kate Steinle in San Francisco, Trump has risen to the top of some early Republican polls.

Today the billionaire traveled to Laredo, Texas to see the U.S. Mexican border firsthand. And here directly from law enforcement on the ground as well as the U.S. citizens living there. Trump was greeted on the tarmac by supporters and protesters and it didn't take long for him to start making headlines.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think it's a great danger to be here for you?

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, they say it is a great danger but I have to do it. I love the country and there is nothing more important than what I'm doing. And I'm the one that brought up the problem of illegal immigration. And it's a big problem, it's a huge problem, you folks know it better than anybody. And you look at the crowds outside. We have big crowds are all screaming in favor of Trump.  Everybody wants because they want the problem fixed.


KELLY: From there, the Trump campaign led a motorcade of fans and reporters to the border for a press conference with the mayor of Laredo, watch.


TRUMP: Thank you very much for being here. It's been an amazing experience. Mexico is booming, absolutely booming. And Jesus, the city manager have done an amazing job right here. But a lot of what is happening here is because of the fact that Mexico is doing so well. Just doing beyond what anyone ever thought. And I don't know if that is good for the United States but it is good for Mexico. Anybody have any questions?


TRUMP: Yes, I think I will win the Hispanic vote. You know, I have thousands of Mexicans and Hispanics and I think when it comes right down, I don't know if you saw the poll but they just did a big poll in Nevada, the state of Nevada, and I'm way ahead. And more importantly as far as I'm concerned, I'm way, way ahead with the Hispanics. Well into the 30s which and I think second is like 11. So I have a great relationship. Over the years thousands and thousands of Hispanics have worked for me and now work for me and the relationship is very good. Questions?


TRUMP: Go ahead. Go ahead. How many people killed?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In Chattanooga, five people were killed (INAUDIBLE) by marines -- by American citizens coming from the Middle East.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, it means that killers come from all over the world.  

TRUMP: Yes, I agree with that. I agree with that. And they come through here but they come from all over the world. I agree with that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You keep saying that there's a danger but the crime rate along the border is down. What danger are you talking about?

TRUMP: Great danger with the illegals. And we are just discussing that. But we have a tremendous danger on the border with the illegals coming in. Yes ma'am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you seen any evidence here to confirm your fears about Mexico sending his criminals across the border?

TRUMP: Yes, I have. And I've heard it. And I've heard it from a lot of different people. And in fact, as you know, the border patrol was the one that invited me. I think most of you have that invitation we sent it.  The border patrol invited me and then they canceled because frankly they don't want to get involved. They know that from the reason they invited me was because of the tremendous problem and the tremendous crime and all of the things that you are talking about. So, they invited me and then at the last moment, I mean, we were virtually in the air, and they said, we can't get involved. And I heard they got those orders from Washington.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What evidence specifically have you seen?

TRUMP: We will be showing you the evidence.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say to the people who I've spoken to this morning in Laredo called you a racist?

TRUMP: Well, you know, we just landed. And there were a lot of people at the airport. And they were all waving American flags. And they were all in favor of Trump on what I'm doing. And I mean, virtually everyone that we saw, was such a great warm, I was actually surprised but there was such great warmth at the airport, with all of those people that were there. So, we're very, very honored. Yes, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were plenty chanting against you.


TRUMP: No, they were chanting for me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, they were chanting against you.

TRUMP: I didn't see that.


KELLY: Well, the last stop of the day was reportedly unplanned. At the last minute, Trump met with local law enforcement and members of the border patrol. And that's when a question in his remarks about criminal, illegal immigrants came up and once again Trump refused to back down.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many feel that. What you've said, when you said, that the people across the border are rapists and murderers --

TRUMP: No, no, no, we're talking about illegal immigration. And everybody understands it. And you know why, that's a typical case -- wait.  That's a typical case of the press with misinterpretation.


They take a half a sentence -- by the way, they take a half a sentence and they take a quarter of a sentence, they put it all together. A typical thing. And Joe at Telemundo and Telemundo should be ashamed. And I'll tell you something. What's really going to be fun, I'm right now suing Univision for $500 million. We're going to win a lot of money because of what they are doing. So I want to just, again, I want to thank you --   

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you're finished.

TRUMP: No, no, you're finished, you've obviously --



KELLY: So, Donald Trump is again the top story. Talking about what he calls the tremendous danger at our southern border. We have reaction from two people incredibly passionate about this issue.

Conservative author Ann Coulter and immigration activist Jose Vargas are next. Don't miss this.




TRUMP: You know, by the way, by the way, such a great relationship with the Hispanics and very interestingly, in Nevada, for those that haven't heard, they just did a poll, and I'm leading, not only am I leading by a lot in the poll, but almost more important to me, because I employ hundreds and actually I employ thousands of Hispanics and over the years, tens of thousands, but I'm leading in the poll by a landslide.


KELLY: But when presidential candidate Donald Trump took his southern border tour today, he was met by fans who cheered his focus on illegal immigration and by critics who slammed him for what they call his hateful remarks about Latinos. And while neither of our next two guests went to the border today, this is an issue they both care a lot about.

Jose Antonio Vargas is an immigration activists, he is himself an illegal immigrant and he is host of the new MTV special "White People."  Ann Coulter is a best-selling conservative writer and most recent author of the book "Adios, America: The Left's Plan to Turn Our Country Into a Third World Hellhole." We're going to begin with Jose.

She's always so shy about telling us how she really feels. Jose, good to see you. So, just a fact check because Donald Trump did do well on this one poll to which he refers however, according to the latest Washington Post, ABC News poll conducted in mid-July among Hispanic adults, 84 percent said, they definitely would not vote for him. They said that they definitely would not. However, he does lead general GOP polls by several respected organizations. And the question I have for you is, does his message seem to be catching on?

JOSE ANTONIO VARGAS, IMMIGRATION ACTIVIST: Well, I mean, I think what's catching on here is the fact that the general public doesn't really know the facts when it comes to immigration. I find it really stunning listening. You know, I'm a journalist at heart. Right? Reporting is my religion, journalism is my church. Why hasn't anybody actually said that 40 percent of people who are here illegally, 40 percent, including somebody like me, actually got here and overstayed their visa. Meaning they didn't cross the U.S./Mexico border, right? And yesterday the Pew Research Center --

KELLY: But why should that shut down the points? Why should that shut down the points on other side? Which is --

VARGAS: Well, because --

KELLY: And there is another 60 percent that are crossing. And then some of them, as he points out, commit crimes.

VARGAS: Some of them, yes. But you and I had a conversation about this last week. Not all of them. Right? They are not all representative of that. It's kind of like saying --

KELLY: Even he didn't assert that.

VARGAS: That is kind of like saying Donald Trump represent all of Republicans views. I mean, I don't know about, you know, what Rick Perry, for example, the governor of Texas disagree with what Donald Trump is saying. But actually, here is the bigger point though. I mean, he was talking about how he was invited by border patrol people. According to U.S. customs and border protection, the number of Mexican immigrants apprehended by border patrol have been trending backwards for years. At their lowest levels since the 1970s. Why doesn't Donald Trump say that?

KELLY: Okay. But the point is, for Donald Trump and those who support him, the more we see cases like Kate Steinle, who you know, law abiding American citizens who are in this country --


KELLY: And then low and behold get murdered by illegal immigrants who have been deported repeatedly and have committed felonies over and over, the more his message resonates. And people are looking for an answer, illegal immigration which was not at all at the top of most people's list, it is for people like Ann, she's been making this an issue, but the GOP has been largely ignoring this for years much to Ann's consternation. And now suddenly it is a top issue for folks.

VARGAS: Well, here's what we need to agree on. We need a solution.  I'm undocumented. I'm on your show. Right? Like we need a solution to solve this problem. But Donald Trump spewing ignorant, you know, and hateful things at the border is not that solution.

KELLY: What is the hate? Get specific, Jose.


KELLY: What specifically did he say that was hateful?

VARGAS: I mean, the fact, you just listed at Washington polls poll.  Right? Eighty four percent of Latinos do not -- which is why when Donald Trump says, they love me. Who is he talking about? By the way there are 33 million Latinos --

KELLY: How was that hateful or fell? I just want to zero down on it, Jose. Because that is his broad brush that people use.

VARGAS: Because here is what is happening. When he talks about the rapists and the murderers, who exactly is he referring to? He was referring to --

KELLY: But you don't deny that some illegal immigrants who have come across the southern border are rapists and murders, do you?

VARGAS: That's like any group of people. We can pick on any group of people and like take five, six, seven, ten examples of it.

KELLY: The failure to conceptualize it. Okay.

VARGAS: Exactly. Conceptualizing is really the failure. And by the way, back to my point, 34 million people in this country, Latinos of Mexican decent, 22 million of them are U.S. born American citizens, right?  When they hear that kind of language from Donald Trump, what do you think they think?

KELLY: Well, I guess it depends on who you ask.

VARGAS: Well, absolutely.

KELLY: Nevada, Hispanic, Republicans who don't seem to have a problem at all.

VARGAS: But they don't speak for everybody. They don't speak for everybody.

KELLY: Jose, it's great to see you.

VARGAS: Great to see you. Thanks for having me.

KELLY: Ann Coulter is also here. She has a different view. Ann, let me just start -- let's just start with Trump. There's a lot to get to including the President today, yesterday, expanded, expanded the rights of illegal immigrants already in this country in the face of heart wrenching testimony we saw on Capitol Hill this week, saying, please, please crack down. Instead, he basically went another direction. I want to get to that with you. But Trump, your take on today.

ANN COULTER, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: He's fantastic. I mean, he is absolutely right that of Hispanics who are eligible to vote, and would ever in a million years consider voting republican, he will probably get more of those votes than any other republican running right now. Because it is like as I've said a million times, the main proponents of amnesty and our current legal immigration system, which is dumping millions of extremely poor people and low-wage workers on the country, are their fancy bosses in New York. And San Francisco. And L.A. who want the cheap maids, cheap nannies, cheap workers. The workers themselves could use with a little less competition. And I hear Republicans --

KELLY: What do you think of Jose's point?

COULTER: -- talking about how we have to get up the minimum wage, there is an easy way to have the minimum wage rise on its own. Stop dumping low-wage workers on the country.

KELLY: What do you think of Jose's point though where he says, look - -

COULTER: It's the one thing I've --

KELLY: You know, he is mad that Donald Trump didn't put the numbers to it and say, okay, he said you can say there are rapists and murderers in any group of the country. You know, you could do it by race, you could do it by class, you could do it by gender and of course it would be true.

COULTER: Yes. But for one thing, was he in studio with you because this must be awful living in the shadows. He has his own show on MTV. He got a driver's licenses across the country. You can become a lawyer in California. How about getting Donald Trump to arrest Jose? We can start right there. The point is yes, any group will have rapists. But we don't -- these aren't people who have any right to be here. The motto should be, there are way too many and there shouldn't be any. It even rhymes.

KELLY: In the meantime, as I referenced a moment ago, we saw a family after family, Kate Steinle family, and others, go before Congress and say, please, please do something.


KELLY: Because we have had loved ones who have been murdered by illegal immigrant in sanctuary cities and in other cities. And within 24 hours, Ann, the White House came out and said, not only are they going to veto Kate's Law if it gets through, but they expanded the, by executive action, the rights of illegal immigrants who are already in the country.

COULTER: Right. No, can that be any more doubt now that this is just a massive plan of the Democrats to inundate the nation by the people who are going to block votes for the Democrats. Obama never would have been elected but for Teddy Kennedy's 1965 immigration acts. Democrat consultants gloat and laugh about it, they called it George McGovern's revenge and the Kennedy family's greatest gift to the Democratic Party, it's not as if Democrats are winning all these victories because they've changed American's minds. No, they brought in new voters. That is why they are winning, that is why immigration who gets to live and vote in America is the most important issue and these illegal immigrants or legal immigrants going around and demanding that, oh, you have to be nice to us and we might not vote for Donald Trump. No, you're a guest in this country. You aren't black.

Immigrants need to understand, we care about race and civil rights because the Democrats fought a war to preserve slavery and Democrats imposed Jim Crowe's law for a hundred years. If you have no right to be in this country, America hasn't done anything to you. You're the ones who should be being grateful to us and hoping, you know, you will be allowed to come in legally. One of the visa programs that Obama extended was the diversity visa program. Diversity. We just, you know, randomly take people on a lottery system. You know, because that's how, you know, Scarlett Johansson picks who she is going to date. She has a lottery.  We're America. We should be picking the best people --

KELLY: All right. I see a lot of men raising their hands. They want more information. All right. On that happy note, I got to go. Good to see you, Ann.

COULTER: Good-bye.

KELLY: Well, breaking tonight, new fall out in a case getting national attention as we get the autopsy results now from the  controversial jailhouse death of an African-American woman. See what they tell us about the way Sandra Bland died and how it could impact a potential murder case and the narrative we are being told by some about this matter.  And then, Secretary John Kerry took a beating today from senators asking about secret side deals with Iran that were not disclosed to lawmakers on Capitol Hill. And why the administration apparently caved on key safe guards in its nuke agreement with the Ayatollahs.

Marc Thiessen is next with what it means for the President's deal and for the United States.


SEN. JIM RISCH, R-IDAHO: With all due respect, you guys have been bamboozled and the American people are going to pay for that.




JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: The alternative to the deal that we have reached is not what I've seen some ads on TV suggesting disingenuously. It isn't a quote better deal. Some sort of unicorn arrangement involving Iran's complete capitulation. That is a fantasy.  Plain and simple.


KELLY: Developing tonight, Secretary of State John Kerry may be nursing some bruises after trying to defend the Iran nuclear deal to a panel of senators having none of it, for the most part. The senators suggesting the administration had been quote, "Fleet and bamboozled and that American is going to pay a price in the long run." Here is a little of that.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From my perspective Mr. Secretary, I'm sorry. Not unlike a hotel guest that leaves only what a hotel bathrobe on his back, I believe you've been policed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be able to walk away from this and say that this is a good deal is ludicrous. With all due respect, you guys have been bamboozled and the American people are going to pay for that.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R-FLA.: All of these promises they are making about never pursuing a weapon, they all revealed with lies. When they are developing long-range rocket capable of reaching this very room --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you're so confident this is such a great deal, why wouldn't you have been supportive of allowing the American people to be involved in the decision --


KELLY: Joining me now, Marc Thiessen, the former chief speechwriter for President George W. Bush and a FOX News contributor. Marc, good to see you.


KELLY: So they were not being forthright on selling a deal as, you know, something great that in fact is not. But the thing they really zeroed in on was the news that broke yesterday that there are allegedly two secret side deals that were cut in Vienna that directly undermines the entire big deal that Secretary Kerry came back waving at us. Tell us what the two side deals are. What is number one?

THIESSEN: So number one, there are two side deals. One is relating to -- they're both relating to an inspection regime. So, one of them is relating to the inspection regime in a place called Parchin which is a military complex. And basically according to Senator Menendez, that side deal allows the Iranians to collect their own soil samples which is kind of like letting Lance Armstrong collect his own blood samples for a doping test. I mean, these are the people who are trying to cover up their nuclear deal and we're going to let them collect the soil samples. And then the second one has to do with them coming clean on their past military nuclear activity. And we don't know what the details of these are again because these are secret deals and Congress hasn't seen them and apparently even the Obama administration hasn't seen them only the Iranians and United Nations haven't seen them. So, we are basing this entire deal on a secret deal between Iran and United Nations that even Barack Obama apparently has not seen.

KELLY: So, the Europeans basically, the U.N. has seen it but the U.S. Congress hasn't and will not.

THIESSEN: I mean, it is amazing --

KELLY: Go ahead.

THIESSEN: Yes. They didn't even allow, President Obama didn't even reveal the existence of these deals when he submitted the agreement to Congress, which is a violation of the law. It took Senator Tom Cotton and Congressman Mike Pompeo to go into Vienna and meeting with the U.N. inspection officials to find out that it even existed. They are required by the law to submit not just the nuclear agreement but all materials and annex is related to it, in which means this secret deal as well. So, they are violating the law by not sharing this with Congress.

KELLY: The side deal supposedly allows Iran to keep military sites off limits, from the inspections. So, what is to stop them from taking the nuclear activity that they promised not to at the other places and then shipping them off to a military sites that are off limits?

THIESSEN: That's exactly what they will do. I mean, first of all, this is the Iranian regime has said, the Iranian foreign minister himself has said that the Assad agreement doesn't require, it keeps all the military sites off limits. So, unless we have seen the tax of the agreement that show otherwise, we have to take him at his word. And if that's true, that exposes this whole deal as falsity, as a fraud. Because you know, President Obama kept telling us, this is not about trust, this is about verification but these secret deals are what are going to govern the verification. Congress hasn't seen it. What self-respecting member of Congress can go to his constituents and vote for this agreement without having seen the side deal that governs the inspection.

KELLY: Here is my last question. Here is my last question. Is the whole thing we're seeing in Congress now just a show trial? I mean, does what they are, you know, is what they are about to do meaningful at all?

THIESSEN: Well, it is meaningful in the sense that it is getting out information and exposing what this -- how this deal is even worse than we thought it was. The problem is, is that Republicans back in April seated their ability to block this deal by agreeing to a review process that requires a two thirds by super majority to override the President's veto to kill the deal. So, that means you need 14 Democrats in the Senate and 44 Democrats in the House to vote, no. So, the question is -- that's almost impossible to get. But the question is, are these side deals a game- changer? Does the existence of the secret deal that Obama withheld even the existence of from Congress put enormous pressure on the Democrats to vote no, until they find out what is in it.

KELLY: Marc, good to see you.

THIESSEN: Thank, Megyn.

KELLY: Thanks, Megyn.

THIESSEN: Well, ABC News anchor George Stephanopoulos has stepped in it again. This time with remarks about Republicans and race. Howie Kurtz is here with analysis.

Plus, breaking news in the Sandra Bland death case. As autopsy results are released and they may not necessarily support the narrative we have been hearing on this case from some corners.

In moments, Sheriff David Clarke on whether the Police Department and its statement that she killed herself holds water.

Plus, Mark Eiglarsh and Andell Brown weigh in on the calls to have murder charges levelled against the cops.


WARREN DIEPRAAM, WALLER COUNTY ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: They were cleared of any injuries. The only injury that was found close to the hands were some lacerations or abrasions on her wrists, which are consistent with being handcuffed and struggling during the handcuff process.  



KELLY: Breaking tonight, new details on the controversial arrest and death of an African-American woman in Texas. Authorities today were leasing the autopsy results. Prosecutors say they suggest that Sandra Bland killed herself. It comes as sheriff's office tells us that she had not been placed on any formal suicide watch. Trace Gallagher, reports from our west coast newsroom. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Megyn, the autopsy reports shows that Bland did not have defensive injuries on her hands, typical in cases of violent homicide. Nor did she have bite marks or injuries on her face, lips or tongue consistent with a violent struggle. And the county attorney who released the autopsy said the injury to her neck was uniform and consistent. Listen.


WARREN DIEPRAAM, WALLER COUNTY ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Had this been a violent struggle or a murder, you would most likely not expect to see a consistent and uniform ligature mark around her neck.


GALLAGHER: She did have injuries on her back which may have come during her struggle with police. And some 30 cut marks on her left wrist that were quote, "In a state of healing." At the time of her death, Bland had a significant amount of marijuana in her system. When she arrived to the jail, Sandra Bland was asked about her state of mind. Quote, "Have you ever been depressed?" Answer, yes. "Do you feel like this now?" Answer, yes. "Have you had thoughts of killing yourself in the last year?" Again, the answer, yes. "Have you ever attempted suicide?" The answer was yes in 2014 after losing a baby. But later, she answered no to the many of the same questions, and she was not placed on suicide watch. Guards also failed to do a mandatory physical check on her in the hour before she was found dead. Jail employees also did not have the required training to deal with mental health issues or suicidal inmates. And the sheriff has not responded to questions about why Bland's cell contained a large trash can and plastic bag. And now the local ABC affiliate reports that prior to the guards finding Sandra Bland's body, an inmate in an adjacent cell didn't hear any commotion or crying to suggest foul play. But said Bland was often emotional and crying during her three days in jail, though a guard says hours before her death, she was in good spirits. Megyn.

KELLY: Trace, thank you.

So what about the actions of the arresting officer and the department itself? Here now, Sheriff David Clarke of the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Office. Sheriff, good to see you, so this is -- the first part of this case occurred when they stopped her for a lane change, an illegal lane change. And the confrontation between this woman and the state trooper got ugly. He told her, to put out her cigarette, she said, I don't have to. He told her to get out of the car, she refused. It went up and up and up and up. And suddenly she gets arrested and finds herself after a pretty violent confrontation there on the sidewalk, finds herself in jail for three days for a traffic infraction. That's the first part of the case that people who are critical have problems with. Do you defend the officer?

SHERIFF DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: Oh, wholeheartedly, to stop. This is on a classic case where a citizen did not comply with a law enforcement officer's lawful command. I watched the video several times. I counted 49 times that that officer gave a lawful command and it was disregarded. In fact, from the time that he pulled that car over, he was very personable. He was calm. He was polite. He called her ma'am several times. And he could sense that she was irritated and he asked her, she was loaded (inaudible) from the time that she pulled over. I expect in those situations an officer to make a reasonable attempt to de- escalated situation, but not put him or herself in arms when doing it. So once that fails, I expect an officer to going to arrest mode. And that's what he did. And once you're going to arrest mode, you get to move up on the force continuements, no longer verbal commands. You can use intermediate weapons. He chose a taser. I don't have a problem with him using the taser. His choice of words, I'm gonna light her up.

KELLY: What about -- but, what about.

CLARKE: You know that is how we train.

KELLY: Yes. Because he said there, I will light you up and he -- you can hear him shouting at her when she's -- she is getting upset because she has no way, she is getting threat and getting told that she is under arrest for a traffic infraction, that isn't that big a deal.

CLARKE: I understand, but she still has to comply with his lawful commands. You comply and you grief later. Look, a once -- he was talking very calmly when he said, get out of the vehicle. When that doesn't work, an officer is allowed to raise the level. In other words, become more vocal in terms of giving out those commands. Look, you know, what we train officers to say when they gonna use a taser is do x or I'm going to tase you. But I'm not going to get hung up on that, I was more appalled by the language. She was using with an authority figure. If she has been my daughter, I would be embarrassed at the kind of language that she was using on the scene. Look, she does some things that cause an officer to have to move up in terms of his respond to keep her safe and to keep himself safe. That's unfortunate that the autopsy report, you know the manner of death is suicide. It is unfortunate that according to M.E.'s report, or coroner's report, depending on what state you're in, you know that she -- it looks like she took her own life. I don't know the reasons for that allow the medical people to deal with that thing. But once again, the bottom line for me and all of these cases that you and I, Megyn, have talked about nationally, you have an obligation to comply with a law enforcement officer's lawful command. Look at he was going to give her a warning for heaven's sake.

KELLY: It's just a good policy. Just even if you know the cop is in the wrong, comply and complain later, Sheriff, good to see you.

CLARKE: Thank you, Megyn.

KELLY: Well, despite the autopsy and the rest of the evidence, many remain unsatisfied. At this hour, Ms. Bland's family is awaiting the results of a second independent autopsy. And many believe that the jail officials did something to Ms. Bland while she was in that cell. And that this was not a woman hanging herself. So could we still see murder charges as some are now demanding? Mark Eiglarsh is a criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor. Andell Brown is a civil rights attorney. Good to see you both. Andell, do you believe that's over, now given the autopsy report that says this is suicide, plain and simple. Are -- is this talk about murder charges over?

ANDELL BROWN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Megyn, the D.A. said they're conducting it as if it is a murder investigation. And as Mark would know and you would probably note to yourself, one autopsy does not a case to make. A second autopsy and an independent one is being commissioned at this point in time, and we have to wait and see before we say what the final conclusion is.

MARK EIGLARSH, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, that was a long answer.

KELLY: But when you look at the autopsy, Mark.

EIGLARSH: Said no. The answer is no.

KELLY: The autopsy is really.

EIGLARSH: Oh, yeah.


EIGLARSH: Yeah, yeah. You know Megyn, listen, the short answer is no. There's not gonna be any criminal charges here because the evidence doesn't support anything other than a suicide, a tragic suicide. My heart goes out to the family. But the evidence doesn't suggest that anyone went into her cell. It was consistent with a hanging. No defensive wounds on her at all and someone in the adjacent cell, who normally would point their finger at a guard, you would expect them to say, oh yeah, I thought somebody went in there. Said, there was nothing other than her crying. There was no commotion or struggle. This was a tragic suicide.

KELLY: All right. But let me ask you this before.

BROWN: What we know about the evidence is that is incomplete.

KELLY: Go ahead, Andell. Go ahead.

BROWN: No. I said what we know about the evidence is that it is incomplete. And they are saying that all of a sudden, we have a jail cell that I know Mark has never seen with a trash bag in it, big enough for someone to hang themselves. That is suspect.

EIGLARSH: So where did it come from, Andell?


KELLY: That's negligence by jailers, right? How does that translate into a murder charge, Andell?

BROWN: Well, whether it is negligence or not has yet to be determined. At this point, we have suspicious circumstances where someone who is at the least risk of committing suicide because African-American women.

EIGLARSH: She does wrong.

BROWN: No, African-American women.

EIGLARSH: Hold on.

BROWN: Across.


BROWN: Are the least likely of anyone.


BROWN: To commit suicide. And that is.


KELLY: She already said her form.

BROWN: But it was the numbers.

KELLY: She had tried to commit suicide.

EIGLARSH: And she suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

BROWN: This wasn't on the form.

EIGLARSH: Hold on Andell, this is proven now. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.


EIGLARSH: She suffered from depression. She had cuts, 30 cuts on her arm. Again, I feel for her.

BROWN: And you know how many suffered from depression?

EIGLARSH: Mental illness is extraordinary.

BROWN: Nine percent of the population suffers from the depression.


EIGLARSH: And those most likely to kill themselves.

KELLY: She had tried to kill herself before.

BROWN: The numbers don't bring.

KELLY: It wasn't like the mild depression like I am having a rough time, you know.

BROWN: No doctor ever diagnosed her with depression.

KELLY: She tried to kill herself.

BROWN: No doctor ever diagnosed her with depression.

EIGLARSH: So what's your theory? Andell, what's your theory? Someone.

BROWN: With you theory that.


KELLY: When she is trying -- it could take her own life.

BROWN: Someone checks the.

KELLY: Pills confirmed it.

BROWN: And that's it, but the.

EIGLARSH: Megyn, ask him to tell America.

KELLY: Here's the thing, Mark.


KELLY: Mark, let me talk to you about this. Mark -- but Mark.


KELLY: That how are they -- first of all, there was a video camera on the jail cell. And it doesn't show anybody going in or coming out during the time of issue.

EIGLARSH: Right. End of story.

KELLY: Second of all, there would be some defensive wounds.

EIGLARSH: We're done.

KELLY: If someone murdered her in that cell, she just submitted to it.

EIGLARSH: I like the first argument better than the second. Listen, yes, you would typically find a defensive wound, that's why I brought it up. But the fact that no one went into her jail cell, Andell, seems to suggest that there is no murder, Andell.

BROWN: Mark.

KELLY: All right, here's the other question, though.

BROWN: The prosecution is.


KELLY: Andell, let me ask you this.

BROWN: You were there.

KELLY: Let me ask you this. Let me shift gears. Let me shift gears. Because the other argument is that at a minimum, you've got negligence by the jailers, who it appears their.


KELLY: Violated procedure. They hadn't been trained.

EIGLARSH: They did.

KELLY: Properly according to the authorities, and that they should not have put the big plastic bag in the -- inside the jail cell.

EIGLARSH: Of course.

KELLY: So Andell, what does that amount to? Because usually, we see immunity for officials in situations like this, would it be here or could there be a civil lawsuit by her family?

BROWN: Well, if we're talking about negligence, I believed that they will be protected, unless there are some intentional acts by people that have yet to be identified. What I'm saying, Megyn is that, do can we prove murder that the point in time? Absolutely not, but the investigation is not over. And if we find that the partial information we have is not all of the story, then we have to be ready to go in the other direction. I will not say as Mark is saying that there are absolutely no grounds for a murder charge.

KELLY: And so I mean, it is like the fact that she had a contentious exchange with a state trooper, prior to getting to the jail. Doesn't make the jailers part of some conspiracy towards murder? I mean, that's really the theory here. They are so ticked off by what they saw on that curb side. That now they think the folks who are jailing the prisoner, want to talk her life. That's a far reach. It's good to see you both.

EIGLARSH: It makes no sense.

BROWN: Thanks.


KELLY: Breaking right now, we have reports of a shooting at a movie theater in Lafayette, Louisiana. Local papers in the news wires are reporting that up to six people have been shot. And we are also hearing that two people are dead, including the shooter. But we should caution, it is very early, we are just getting reports. Right before the segment, we heard the first news of it. Some of the details will likely change, we are told that Governor Bobby Jindal is on the way to the scene. Again, it's just coming in to the Fox News channel, a shooting at a movie theater, including fatalities. We'll have more right after the break.


KELLY: And breaking tonight, we are just getting some disturbing reports out of Louisiana of a shooting at a movie theater in Lafayette. Local media reporting that there are multiple injuries, possible fatalities, and the gunman may also be dead. Of course, this is reminiscing of the movie theater shooting we saw in Aurora, Colorado, a case that was watched by the nation and in which the shooter was just convicted, earlier this week. We are working now with our sources to confirm this information, but Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, sending out a tweet, just a short time ago that read, quote, "Prayers for Lafayette at Grand Theater, talking to state police colonel about shooting in Lafayette." And social media is a buzz with folks claiming to have been there and to have witness the events. Trace Gallagher join us live from our Breaking News desk. Trace.

GALLAGHER: Megyn, we were being told this is at the Grand Theater in Lafayette. This is during the 7 o'clock showing of "Trainwreck." Witnesses tell The Daily Advertiser, which is the local newspaper in Lafayette that apparently 20 minutes into the show, an older white man stood up and apparently started firing. They said it sounded like firecrackers and that he was firing from the back of the theater, down toward the front of the theater. They ran out. Now, we are being told from fire officials confirmed, six people have been injured. We have a producer on the ground in New Orleans who apparently is hearing from a parish official, very close to Bobby Jindal that there may be two dead including the shooter. That is not yet confirmed. And three of them are critical. Again, this happened maybe 45 minutes to an hour ago, at least that's when we got word of this happening of the shooter in this theater. Again, we do not have any crews on the ground. The local crews are making their way right now, trying to find out more information about this. Katie Domingue of Carencro -- by the way, Lafayette is about 40 miles away from Baton Rouge. She says that she was with her fianc, about 20 minutes into the movie when they heard a loud pop, pop. They thought it was a fire cracker. Again, when she saw the older man standing up, she said that she heard six shots and they ran out of the theater. Again, we're hearing six shots, six confirmed injuries first responders on their way to the movie theater right now. Maybe they have arrived at the movie theater. Again, we are waiting to get cameras and pictures out of Lafayette, 40 miles outside of Baton Rouge. We are working to get more information, Megyn, as we get it. And more Bobby Jindal, by the way, we're being told that the governor is on his way to the scene. I know you read the tweet. He's apparently on his way to the scene and tweeting out prayers for Lafayette while he is en route. Megyn.

KELLY: Trace, thank you. Keep working the sources and we'll get right back to you. You have to think that the law enforcement authorities looking into this are reminded of what happened in Aurora because after that man, now convicted of murder, went into that theater and shot it up in the middle of the movie, The Dark Knight. He had booby trapped his apartment, knowing that the authorities would then go there to try to track him down and to try to track down the trail of how he got to that place. And meant to unleash carnage at that spot and another as well, and the police prepared for that kind of a trap, protected themselves. But these situations so often don't end -- they don't begin and they don't end in the one side of violence. Again, tonight, we're having conflicting reports of possibly two dead, including the shooter. Another report says one dead, just the shooter. More on the Breaking News right after this.


KELLY: Breaking now, the Associate Press just reported that two people are dead now, following this movie theater shooting in Lafayette. That again, two people dead including the shooter. And now we are getting reports from several different sources that the shooter has killed himself, although, Fox News has not yet independently confirmed that. We are trying to get a local official, a local police representative on the phone now so you can hear directly from this person what appears to have happened in this movie theater in Lafayette tonight. Six were reportedly wounded and the gunman, plus one other we believed are dead. As we -- do we have him?


KELLY: Hi, Sir. I'm sorry. I didn't even get your name from my producers. What is it?

SUAREZ: Hey Megyn, This is Sergeant Kyle Suarez.

KELLY: Thank you for being here with us. Tell us what happened.

SUAREZ: Yeah. Sure. Approximately, 7:30 Central Time, a male entered the Grand Theater located on Johnson street within the city limits of Lafayette. At some point, the male began firing randomly in one of the theaters inside. We can confirm that there are at least two to three fatalities on scene. One of which we believe is the shooter. And there have been several injured that have been transported to area hospitals. But we do believe that the shooter is at least one of the fatalities at this time.

KELLY: And when you say several injured, can you confirm six? Does that number sound about right?

SUAREZ: Between 6 and 10 at this time, Megyn that we can confirm.

KELLY: Any -- when you say the gunman entered, the male entered. Did he enter while the movie was in progress?

SUAREZ: That's unconfirmed at this time, Megyn.

KELLY: Any idea what kind of weapon he was using?

KELLY: No. We were unable to confirm that at this time. As you can imagine, it is very early in the investigation.

KELLY: Of course, of course. And can you confirm that he shot himself? That he killed himself?

SUAREZ: Again, we're not ready to confirm that at this time, Megyn.

KELLY: What is the age range of the victims?

SUAREZ: We have not even begun to -- begin to identify the victims. Obviously, we would want to notify (inaudible) and the family members before we would start even release that information.

KELLY: Have there been any sort of a threat called in.

SUAREZ: We are looking into that right now. We're looking to see if there were any postings on impact of social media. Again, very early in the investigation and all those aspects will be looked into.

KELLY: Any reason to believe there might be a connection to ISIS or radical Islam or terror, as we understand it in this country?

SUAREZ: Yeah, it's too early, Kelly, to -- sorry, Megyn. It's too early to draw any type of conclusions at. That's it.

KELLY: Understood. Thank you, Sir. So much for giving us your time tonight, we appreciate it.

SUAREZ: Thank you, Megyn.

KELLY: Joining me now again, Sheriff David Clarke of the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Office. We asked him to come back when we heard the Breaking News, Sheriff, thank you for being here. And so what would you imagine that the sheriff's that the law enforcement right now is doing around that movie theater and the shooter is dead, so with respect to him and his personal effects and home.

CLARKE: Well, the first things as you know, Megyn. The first facts are those most likely to change as this goes on, panic, pandemonium, horror the situation like this. The first responders to have attended the injured and start sharing information, gathering information, we heard the gunman maybe dead, he may not be dead. My biggest concern in these situations is now is that there is not some secondary situation where he planned explosives. Or maybe there is a secondary shooter somewhere in the area or maybe even still in the theater. So the early parts of this, and I've been in these chaotic situations. You know, you want to calm everything down, get help to the injured and start piecing this thing together. It's gonna be a long night for those officers in Lafayette, Louisiana.

KELLY: What kinds of evidence are they're looking to retrieve that could be helpful to them?

CLARKE: Well, the evidence stage collection comes later on. As indicated, first of all they want.

KELLY: But I mean, what about.

CLARKE: That's job one.

KELLY: What about the shell casing inside the theater?

CLARKE: Shell casings, you want to protect the scene. Shell casings is the weapon that the gunman is dead, you want protect that weapon. You want to start help to identify people. You want to make sure that the people had fled because like I said, panic and pandemonium sets in. You want to make sure that you can keep as many people as you can, at least in the area because they are all witnesses. I don't know how crowded the theater was. But this is gonna be a pain seek investigation. And I just, you know my prayers are with the people in Lafayette, the people in that theater, the first responders, and just going to pray at this point.

KELLY: Absolutely right. You know, it was days ago that the Aurora movie theater shooter was found guilty of murder, over and over again. And the nation relived that crime in a way many did not want to, as we heard a very effective prosecutor walk us through what that person did to the children and others inside that movie theater. How big a risk is there, Sheriff that something like that could lead to a copycat event?

CLARKE: Well, you know, we're living in that age right now, unfortunately. And you know, until they learn the motive, what was behind this thing, you know, we're speculating at this point. But, yeah, we're seeing it more and more unfortunately. And this is the age we live in.

KELLY: Yeah. We'll find out more in the hours and days ahead. Sheriff, thank you for your help tonight, again, carnage has been unleashed in Louisiana. Stay tuned.

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