Donald Trump refuses to apologize for criticism of John McCain's war record

In the end, the ideal leader speaks for you, not the reverse


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," July 20, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Greg Gutfeld along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Geraldo Rivera, Eric Bolling and she almost drowned in a dew drop, Dana Perino, "The Five."

Talk about being captured.


DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: John McCain goes, "Oh, boy, Trump makes my life difficult. He had 15,000 crazies show up" -- crazies. He called them all crazy. He's not a war hero.

FRANK LUNTZ, MODERATOR: He's a war hero.

TRUMP: He's a war hero.

LUNTZ: Five and after years.

TRUMP: He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured.


GUTFELD: Now maybe this is trash talk between rivals -- it could be. But even Trump knew he crossed the line. It's why he repeated hero four times after -- that was his correction. But Donald is not to blame for being Donald. The fault lies with those who yield to his rules, that either you're a groupie or a traitor. But in reality, critics beat both. Groupies offer little insight, just rope and dope.

His repeat defenders always paint Trump's gaffes as blunt honesty, which turns them into Bill Maher's audience: pliant. They left stuff slide. If Obama had mocked McCain's service, the right would storm the White House. When you perceive criticism as disloyalty, you turn fans into minions. But criticism is your guardrail: Embrace it and you avoid these petty feuds and these nasty gaffes.

But to his credit, Trump may have slayed the self-serving denigrations found amongst Republicans once and for all. Those who normally call you an unreliable conservative are now embracing the same one in Trump. The guy helped elect Democrats and he gave to the Clintons. When you see righties defending jokes about POWs, it says this game of "I'm more conservative than you" is about ego and not issues.

In the end, the ideal leader speaks for you, not the reverse. Trumps your id, but it's not your conscience. And so we embraced him, exposing TV's true purpose which is ratings. An election is in 16 months, but ratings come out for us every single day and Trump delivers. I mean, he just described Holy Communion as a little cracker. At least he didn't say that about McCain.




RIVERA: Come reverse sort of little cracker.

GUTFELD: Yes. Well, Geraldo, you think -- I saw you earlier today. You think that Donald should apologize. I don't think he should because I think -- we know what Donald does, but explain to me why you feel.

RIVERA: There are over 500 surviving prisoners of war. We revere their service. You can't go there, particularly, if you were a draft dodger. I did not serve to remedy my conscience. I put myself in as many wars as I could since the Vietnam era, to show that I did not served because I was a chicken. But then I had some political problems and I didn't want to, I didn't believe it and et cetera. Trump didn't serve, and I met him in those studio 54 days. That's how long I know him. But he -- when you have a POW, you know, this is service that is revered. He must explain to them, either that was a bad joke or he made a terrible error and he's sorry for it. There are some things you must apologize for.

GUTFELD: You know, Eric, I think he blew in this. I think he could have deflated this by just saying, it's a joke.


GUTFELD: Because you know if this was a Comedy Central crew -- roast and he said, you know, and McCain was in the roast. He could have said like you know, they say you're a hero, but where I come from, heroes don't get caught. People would have actually laughed.


GUTFELD: But it was like, he doubled down instead.

RIVERA: Chris Rock actually did that.

BOLLING: If you list not -- if you listen to the whole -- from the beginning to the very end, there's a back and forth. Donald trump is talking about John McCain taking shots at his fan base with the people who showed up at his last rally. The audience kind of claps, they laugh. They're egging him on. And there's another question about McCain, about his service as senator. And they kind of lie, he takes another shot and they kind of laugh. And then it goes to, but he's a war hero. And then, it's almost like Donald is on a roll and he just throws it out there. I'm sure - - and then correct himself and say, no, he was a war hero four times and you guys you pointed out. Personally, I think John McCain is a war hero. And I would tell you, talking to Donald Trump -- he will probably tell you the same thing. He's a war hero.


BOLLING: I think he's right. And I -- but I think while he was taking the shot and McCain was his service, not to the American people or to the country as military service, taking the shot at John McCain for his service as a senator, and there is a big difference there. So, I --

GUTFELD: But I don't see. I get.

BOLLING: What do you there? Donald is not gonna apologize, you're right.


BOLLING: It is not in his nature to apologize.

GUTFELD: But he definitely was talking about his military service, when he was captured.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Yeah, I mean, if -- to say that he was joking would have taken away from his appeal to his base. So his fans like it that he is authentic.


PERINO: And then he says what he believes. Then if, you know, this is -- finally, somebody who is willing to just tell it like it is. So if you were to say, oh I was joking about him not being a war hero. Like, that actually could have been trying (ph) the right to do to quell the media storm. But it's not in keeping with how he has described himself and his authenticity.

GUTFELD: Do you think he disrespected McCain or more than McCain?

PERINO: More than McCain. And don't take it for me. I mean, it's like from the veterans and the other POWs, I mean, that's the concern. And also, temperament and character are what people ultimately look for a year from now. And not right now during a primary, but a year from now. And if you -- if a crowd can egg you on to the point that you actually call a prisoner of war, not a hero because he was captured and you don't like people who are captured. Even if it's in the heat of the moment, as a president of the United States you have to be able to dismiss that instinct and rise above it. That's what people will follow.

GUTFELD: Yes. It's the kind of the nature of all these, the little petty feuds. If you do criticize Donald Trump, he will end upcoming after you. That's less than presidential, you just let that stuff slide Kimberly, right?

GUILFOYLE: Well, right. But then, that's what people who are very practice politicians do. They have teams that manage and micromanage them, then bring them in and control the rhetoric and the flow of speech. And in fact, what they think they should be saying because things are poll tested over and over again to make sure that message is staying on course. He's not that kind of candidate. So it's also -- it's a blessing, but it's a curse because he's populist. He's able to tap into the emotions and the passions and the frustrations of people who are tired of politics as usual, but he's not going to be the quintessential political candidate because that's not who he is.

PERINO: Can I take up on that?


PERINO: Can I take up on that because they were at an event in Iowa for conservatives, republicans -- all get together. It's a -- every time in this type of cycle, they all get together. And they didn't actually have a time, the other candidates were asked immediately to react. And so they didn't really have time to go back to their handlers and poll tests and say, how shall I say. And I actually think there are three examples on the top of my head that show how people would play this instinctively, OK, and I think instincts matter. So Cruz declines to comment. Now he's probably thinking straight ahead, thinking -- maybe those followers have eventually become mine -- whatever.


PERINO: But his instinct was to not say anything at all and to not dismiss a comment. Ben Carson says it depends on what you mean by war hero. That's his instinct. Depends on what you mean by war hero. Well, OK, I don't understand even where he comes from that. And then Rick Perry, who up until now is probably -- I think received less press attention than he's deserved has the instinct to say, this is uncalled for and you could not be commander in chief and you should get out of the race. Those are just three examples of the immediacy and instincts.

RIVERA: If you have that kind of temperament and you're face to face with Vladimir Putin as president of the United States, and you -- what are you going to do? You push the button and then refuse to apologize for pushing the button? The stakes are too high. You know the Putin example is one at the global level. The other is what if you insult someone's mother? Is that your mother and you're not gonna apologize for insulting the guys mother. You know that doesn't just go to your political acumen. That goes to your fundamental character. You -- there is more at stake here for Donald Trump than his success in this presidential race. If he doesn't apologize to these POWs, this is a stand on his personal legacy and he has grossly disappointed his loyal friends and his loving family.

BOLLING: Geraldo, do you really think that Donald Trump has disrespect or doesn't think that someone who is captured by the enemy and spent five years in captivity isn't a war hero? Do you honestly think that.

RIVERA: I think.

BOLLING: Do you think it just kind of fell out of his mouth and he, you know, he would wished he could take it back. Don't forget, the context of this was someone asked him about John McCain's service to the veterans and he said John McCain who dropped the ball as far as the veteran's administration. There are veterans who've got.

GUILFOYLE: The VA scandal.

BOLLING: Tens of thousands.

GUILFOYLE: The deaths.

BOLLING: Of veterans who have died because of the VA -- what's going on in the VA?

RIVERA: Changing the subject. Remember I -- when I interrupted, I talked about Chris Rock? Chris Rock, several years ago had a comedy routine based on John McCain's service. Chris Rock's whole joke was, war hero? What kind of war hero? He was in jail, he was captured. What kind of war hero -- that's Chris Rock. Chris Rock can get away with it. In this context, where the man is running for president, and you have of all the heroes we have in this country. There are some things you -- some that that are truly sacred that you just can't violate. This is a very, very big deal that cannot be minimized. This is not about I said it and I maybe, I didn't mean it or this was political.

GUILFOYLE: But now you have to see how the voters and their respond.

RIVERA: This was a bridge too far. This was a bridge too far.

GUTFELD: Also, we have to expect more, don't we? I mean, it's like, again, if Eric Holder had said this, "Fox News, we would be covering it 24/7."


GUTFELD: "And we would be demanding resignations and investigations," which is why we have to hold Donald Trump to the same standards."

RIVERA: Amen. Amen to that.

BOLLING: But we are.

PERINO: Are we not?

BOLLING: I mean, I -- we are. And look at every show in every network it is led with Donald Trump. Every single.

GUTFELD: I agree.

BOLLING: From top to bottom.

GUTFELD: I agree.

BOLLING: Has led with Donald Trump. So I think he's being held to a similar standard. Again, we -- let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

PERINO: Right.

BOLLING: I think everyone --I'll speak for myself. I've said things that I wish I haven't said that it never intends to say.

RIVERA: What you've said to me?

BOLLING: No, I meant that.



GUTFELD: You should apologize. Donald --

BOLLING: We -- right.

GUTFELD: But he's got too much pride.

BOLLING: Well -- or it is just the way he is. And you know, he is -- look, people have signed on to Donald Trump because of who he is. Because he doesn't -- he's not the standard politician.

GUILFOYLE: Right. Anyway, what I was saying -- I wasn't finished. So what I'm saying is, it's that's who he is. So you can make a value judgment on that, on his candidacy, on the person that he is, and decide if he is for you or he's not, and the party is gonna have to that as well. But don't be afraid of diversity and different thought. You know, it process as far it goes. I love John McCain. I voted for John McCain. Obviously, everybody knows. Who's gonna doubt that he is a war hero? He was flying missions are one of the most difficult times, or North Korea has the most sophisticated air defense systems make.

RIVERA: North Korea and Vietnam.

GUILFOYLE: North Korea and Vietnam, all of that. So he's service to this country, the fact that he stayed two years in solitaire confinement, he wouldn't come home when others -- when he was gonna be allowed to because he don't want to jump the line ahead. He's a class-act and he handled it very well by saying, I'm not going to criticize. You know, I'm in the arena; he could make comments about me. That, I thought, was very good how he handled it.

GUTFELD: The interesting thing that would, Dana is that, I guess out of all the candidates, Donald Trump is the one we have to explain the most -- as supposed. Again, it goes back to the.

PERINO: I see your point about not, like every week, there's another reason why you have to be defend -- and that will -- that could continue where.

GUTFELD: They didn't have to do that with Reagan? And the left didn't have to do that with Obama. You have to.

PERINO: But the left will have to do it for Hillary.

GUTFELD: That's true.

RIVERA: That's interesting.

GUTFELD: Yeah, a lot of explaining to do.

BOLLING: You know, but candidates on the trail, they make mistakes. They say things that they wish they hadn't said before.


BOLLING: Maybe not to say.

RIVERA: And you say you were sorry.


PERINO: Some of the things are fatal, like 47 percent of people are on welfare.

RIVERA: I don't like John McCain because he called my followers crazies, but I never meant for a second meant to imply that people who are prisoners of war are less than heroic or less than a hero.

PERINO: And -- well, and that's our.

RIVERA: That's it. You're finished with it.

PERINO: And also, all the republican, the conservatives that came out and that had to defend it. But the people that were coming out and saying on the right who were forced in the position of having to defend John McCain and they go drudgingly to their Twitter feed and say, I disagree with everything John McCain says, but he's a war hero. Like is it -- like a word of advice, I just cut off that first part. He's a war hero, period. I can't believe that we have actually been pushing to have an argument whether John McCain is a war hero.

GUTFELD: Yeah. All right, we got more to come on this very same topic. How will Trump's comments effect his 2016 campaign, and should he drop out of the race all together? That's what Kimberly thinks. I'm kidding. Hear from other GOP candidates after this. I was joking.


BOLLING: Following his controversial comments about John McCain, Donald Trump is facing some backlash from fellow 2016 GOP candidates.


SCOTT WALKER, 2016 GOP PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I denounce Donald Trump for that. He needs to apologize to Senator McCain and all the other men and women who have worn the uniform. That's just a disgrace.

MARCO RUBIO, 2016 GOP PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is not just an insult to John McCain, who clearly is a war hero and a great man. But it is an insult to all POWs, to all men and women who have served us in uniform, who have been captured and that all.

RICK PERRY, 2016 GOP PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: More over the top bombastic rhetoric from Donald Trump. I really don't understand his strategy here of taking on a bullet that went through John McCain and hit a lot of us that wore the uniform of this country.


BOLLING: But Trump says his critics are just upset because he is leading them in the polls.


TRUMP: The republican candidates, some of whom are registering 1 percent and zero. And they're very upset that I'm leading the polls by actually, a nice margin. They're extremely upset.


BOLLING: And Dana, so he is right about one thing, if you take Donald Trump's polling numbers out the whole GOP field shifts quite dramatically.

PERINO: That's true. So they are all having to deal with that, but I actually don't doubt all of them were sincere in their revulsion because that's what a lot of people felt at the comments, even if they were sort of massaged away, later on, by saying -- by trying to revamp it. The thing as I don't understand on the point of this issue is the conservative purity that is demanded from most people on the conservative side, but for some reason, they're totally accepting of a Donald Trump candidacy. When actually in his background, he has supported some of the most liberal policy positions and candidates in his career. So I think that if -- I think Donald Trump will probably end up on that debate stage of all -- that's what the numbers show. And so, if I were one of those other candidates, I'll be studying their own records very closely, because everyone on that stage will be probably a very good debater including Ted Cruz, in particular. But I would know Donald Trump's record very well, and he's going to have to defend that on the substance and I don't think that he'll be able to make personal attacks, divert attention when he challenge on the substance in the debate.

BOLLING: So Greg -- so if he wasn't in the front and leading, would the other candidates take the shots that they're taking at him for what he said?

GUTFELD: Again, I have to agree with Dana. I'm not in the race, but I've thought and I know Trump, but I -- and I thought the comments were bad. So, what he says, oh, it's just because we're in the race. He's almost saying that kind of opinion doesn't matter. If you were upset by this, it doesn't matter, which is really weird because as a conservative, if you don't care about this comment to John McCain, what's wrong with you? If you don't think this is bad, you aren't the real conservative. You're the rhino, if you don't care. But I have to say one thing, give Trump's ambivalence about politics. He's not an ideologue. I don't think he's an ideologue. He's an ideal third party candidate. He's got this populist appeal. He's got name recognition. My feeling is money.

PERINO: Money is it.

GUTFELD: Money. I have a feeling that's where this is gonna lead that he might be a third.

PERINO: He tried it before.

GUTFELD: Yeah. And I think, what happens is, if you vote for a third-party candidate, that hurts the candidate you originally were going to vote for and helps the candidate that you least like.

BOLLING: Assuming he has to run as a third-party candidate.

GUTFELD: Yeah, yeah.

BOLLING: Everyone is writing Trump. Is it too early to write him off?

GUILFOYLE: No, wait for the debate. Let's see what happens there. And I don't think anybody should be afraid of him being on the stage. Meaning, let's see all the issues. Let's get the debate going. I think it's gonna be healthy for the party and people are like, oh, this could hurt the Republican Party. I don't think -- do you feel that fragile?


BOLLING: Can I just say -- to stand this (inaudible) for a second. The RNC came out and made a very harsh statement.


BOLLING: Towards Donald Trump. I'm not sure that's -- you know, they're like dad.

GUILFOYLE: You make alienate a program.

BOLLING: Like the kids are fighting, but is it -- was it too early for dad to step in and take the shot at one of the kids?

RIVERA: William Jefferson Clinton won the election as 42 percent of the vote in 1992. So that's, you know, that's the warning sign through republicans, including Donald Trump. But just as Dana point about consistency, John McCain drafted the immigration reform bill during George W. Bush's administration. Marco Rubio drafted the immigration reform bill in more recent times. Both of them, when it came time, when they saw the displeasure from the Tea Party, faction of the party, changed their minds about the bills that they had drafted. So my goodness, I think that Donald Trump.

PERINO: I think in 2000.

RIVERA: Inconsistency has -- certainly, has plenty of precedence.

PERINO: I think in 2007 John McCain's bill, that was a bipartisan bill, actually, could have gone forward if it weren't for Barack Obama and Harry Reid who voted for the poison pills that Clinton did not vote for. That I don't think he will return -- James is mine until, he starts to run for president, and that's when he changed his mind, but not when the bill was on the table.

BOLLING: There were quite a few candidates still that have moved on a lot of issues.

RIVERA: Mitt Romney, you couldn't snail him down. Where did he stand on a lot of issues? I think that's what cause people.

PERINO: Health care being one.

BOLLING: Health care being a big one, since he passed in Massachusetts. Final?

GUTFELD: I just -- I always -- they can move. I think the other candidates can actually learn from Donald Trump. And it's always about making sure the target on your back is small because the media is always going to go after you. The target is already there, so you've got to figure out how to marginalize that target, make it smaller and that means thinking before you blurt.


PERINO: I actually might have been (inaudible).

BOLLING: I can't remember -- I'm sorry Dana, I'd never -- I think I've never ever seen a candidate that has more target. This guy has got a target from the left. He's got a target from the right.

PERINO: But he asked for.

GUTFELD: But he said.


PERINO: I mean, he like when -- and especially, when you go after people personally about their appearance, or like -- things like that that is creating a target. And actually, it might have strengthened the Republican Party because it made the rest of them smarter and be willing to stand up and say, OK. this is what I'm gonna say and believe and I'm gonna show that I am ready.


PERINO: To go.

RIVERA: I didn't say that, I saw it. When they started you know, criticizing Trump, I didn't consider their criticism as legit as I did ordinary citizens.

BOLLING: We got to leave right now.

RIVERA: They seemed self-serving.

BOLLING: We're good. All right, coming up, the latest developments on the Iranian nuclear deal prove the administration wasn't honest to you, the American public, when they were selling it -- that's next.


PERINO: All right. Last week, the White House announced a controversial nuclear agreement between Iran and the U.S., and five other world powers. The Obama administration, further angered critics including some powerful democrats, like taking the deal directly to the United Nations before giving congress a chance to vote on it. Here's the top democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Ben Cardin.


BEN CARDIN, SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: I don't know why they're going to the United Nations. I think they should have gone to the United Nations there after the 60-day review. They don't gain anything by doing it earlier. I think it is not consistent with Iranian review act.


PERINO: Those concerns were ignored, and today, the U.N. Security Council unanimously, endorsed the deal and KT McFarland explains why the United States should have got in per se.


KT MCFARLAND, FOX NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY: Nobody in Tehran is chanting death to China, death to Russia. They're chanting death to America, destroy Israel. So the United States looks at this, and said, (inaudible) everybody start (inaudible). You know the Russians want to sell them weapons. The Chinese want to buy Iranian oil. Everybody wants to do business with Iran and the countries which is involved in the U.N. They're not as concerned with death to China, death to Russia.


PERINO: So Eric, a week later, as people have search, looked at the details of this deal -- It might not be as bad as some that's worst critics thinks, but it certainly not as good as the Obama administration is saying.

BOLLING: There was a fantastic interview over the weekend. Chris Wallace took on vote Secretary of State Kerry and Ernie Moniz, the energy secretary. It was fascinating to see the spin that they put on this deal.

PERINO: Can I show it?


PERINO: Yeah, we have it. I want to say, look -- let me show you what Eric is talking about and then we'll get him to continue. This is John Kerry, yesterday.


JOHN KERRY, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATES: I never, in four years, had a discussion about anywhere, anytime. The fact is that in arms control, there is no country anywhere on this planet that has anywhere, anytime. There is no such standard within arms control inspections. And the intelligence community has made it clear to us, as they did before we signed on to this deal, that we would be able to know what they're doing during that intervening time.



PERINO: On the record saying that.

BOLLING: And President Obama said it. He said, "We were gonna after anywhere, anytime inspections." Not only that, there was another interchange with Moniz where Chris Wallace said, "Hey, what about years '15 and forward?" President Obama is on record saying, "The Iranians can -- and make sure Iranians to bomb level and as much as they want." And Moniz says, "No, they won't that, it's not in a deal." And then Wallace push back and says, "Where is that because I don't see anyone the deal." And Moniz says, "Well, they've promised to do that." Now, if you listen carefully, basically, what -- they have a deal for 10 years, possibly up to 15 years. After that, KT by on the door, the Iranians can do whatever that they want. They will have bombs and massive amounts of bombs. And the administration, those guys right there are banking on the Iranians holding their close promise. Not even in writing, just a promise they won't enrich uranium. That's dangerous to the world.

PERINO: If you remember just four months ago in April, March and April, the Congress had its big debate. And finally, Senator Corker and Cardin, we just showed -- Corker is a Republican -- worked out a bipartisan deal. They actually passed a thing to give the president a little bit more time. And then the president, after asking them to do that, bypasses them and goes directly to the U.N. Security Council.

GUILFOYLE: I mean, again, add this to the Obama highlight reel, or lowlight reel, something like that. He has no care whatsoever about what the Republicans think, what Congress thinks. This was something that he was bound and determined to put through, that Kerry had his marching orders: get this done. Let's get this to happen, no matter what the consequences and no matter what other members of Congress think about it. So this is just another slight by him going around them and not giving them proper, you know, due deference.

PERINO: Geraldo, why not just let Congress have a look at it?

RIVERA: Because this is not the U.S. versus Iran, as everyone knows, Dana. This -- we forget. We are so arrogant. We think that we are the world. We are not the world.

GUTFELD: We are the world!

RIVERA: We are not the world.

GUTFELD: We are the people.

RIVERA: Do we really believe that the governments of Russia and China and Germany and Britain and France don't want, you know, a nuclear-free Iran? Do we think that the Security Council, 15 countries to zero, that they are so naive, that the Iranians pulled one over, not just on Barack Obama but on all of these...?


RIVERA: ... leaders, all of these...?

GUILFOYLE: Yes, they did.

RIVERA: The League of Nations could have averted World War II. The League of Nations was passed by the rest of the world. Woodrow Wilson brought it to the Congress of the United States. They defeated it. We never joined the League of Nations, which collapsed; the international order collapsed. The Nazis rose up. We had World War II. The second global conflict in two decades. And I think that for one second, why don't we just consider that these people are people of good faith...

BOLLING: Because they're not. They're state sponsors of terror.

RIVERA: Which ones? The British?

BOLLING: I'm talking about the Iranians, Geraldo, the ones who...

RIVERA: What about the people that approved this deal? What about the British, the French, the Germans?

BOLLING: They all have something to gain. Every one of the five, P5+1. The one that doesn't get anything out of this deal is us. The other five do and the Iranians.

RIVERA: I'm telling you...

GUILFOYLE: And they hate us. Death to America.

PERINO: We have to go, because you've been sitting here so patiently.

GUTFELD: Three points. We never chant death to anyone. Isn't it time that we do? We're too busy doing Pilates and hot yoga. We should do our exercise, "Death to Iran." Get everybody on the streets. Because I'm sick and tired of seeing other countries to it. We don't do it. Oh, no, we chant death to our cops. That's what we do. We look inward, not outward.

No. 2, Iran -- Obama in his weekly address said, "I make no apology for keeping this country safe and secure through the hard work of diplomacy over the easy rush of war."

GUILFOYLE: Passive aggressive.

GUTFELD: Again, another straw man. This guy has so many straw men the White House is a fire hazard.

Now, let's also look not just at Iran, but this week, Cuba. No conditions about cop killers being returned for Cuba or hostages in Iran. That tells you one thing, that we are afraid to ask for anything, because we feel we don't deserve it. What about the prisoners in Cuba and the cop killers in Cuba? What about our hostages in Iran?

RIVERA: This is domestic relations. This is about -- domestic diplomacy.


RIVERA: What about Vietnam? What about China? We have relations with all of them. What about the African dictators? We have relations with all of them.

GUTFELD: We did not have relations with that African dictator.

RIVERA: It is immature -- it is immature...

GUILFOYLE: That sounded weird.

RIVERA: ... to have only diplomatic relations with people that you like.

GUTFELD: Let's get something out of it, as Eric says. Let's get the cop killer.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, Geraldo. Why wouldn't you want him to get American hostages back? Well, do you think he should have? He had the leverage.

RIVERA: What about what Germany did to the rest of the world in World War II?

PERINO: We don't have time for that. Hold. Can we hold that?

RIVERA: What about with the Japanese did? What about what the Vietnamese did? What about what the North Koreans?

GUILFOYLE: That makes it OK?

RIVERA: You try to negotiate. This is an imperfect world. Better to talk than not to talk.

PERINO: And better to be quiet when you have a break.

Coming up, we're learning more about the shooter who opened fire on two military recruitment centers last week. New details about the drug and alcohol abuse leading up to those killings after this.


GUILFOYLE: A fifth victim is dead following the tragedy in Chattanooga last week. Twenty-six-year-old sailor Randall Smith was injured in Thursday's shooting but died early Saturday, leaving behind a wife and three kids.

Today dozens of FBI agents are on the ground in Tennessee, investigating the shooter, Mohammad Abdulazeez. They're looking at a series of his writings, which reportedly include talks of becoming a martyr, drug and alcohol abuse, and references to suicidal thoughts. Abdulazeez' family also released a statement, saying Mohammad suffered from depression for years.

Geraldo, I'm going to go to you on this issue and the topic and the trouble in this country with mental illness.

RIVERA: Well, I think that mental illness, as broadly described, is at the heart of much of this, but you cannot deny that there is a very specific danger from these radicalized Sunnis Muslim extremist wannabes. There is a way to take your own personal dysfunction and everything wrong in your life and package it in a way that it is the motivation for you to commit horrible acts in the name of Allah.

So right away, it elevates you from loser to winner of virgins and afterlife and the noble patina of being a warrior. I think that it is the story of our times. It is extremely distressing.

I call on -- when you say that people should see something and say something, I call on every mosque, every -- and this does not include all the people who are self-converted to Islam...

GUILFOYLE: Radicalizing, uh-huh.

RIVERA: ... you've got to -- if you see a kid going through what this kid has gone through, this downward spiral, you know where it ends. That doesn't end in him taking his own life directly. It comes -- it ends with him doing something vicious to innocent people...

GUILFOYLE: Terrible.

RIVERA: ... upsetting and unsettling our civilized way of life, our civilization itself. And then they kill themselves at the end, if they have to courage to do that. But they should do the suicide part first and then the acting out.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, unfortunately, they really are intending to commit suicide. They, in fact, want to just kill and murder other people, Eric.

BOLLING: Yes. That's all true. And there are two things that have come to light in the aftermath of yet another radicalized self- -- I don't care if they want to call themselves lone wolves, self-radicalized, whatever. They're jihadists.

RIVERA: I agree.

BOLLING: And they should be referred to as jihadists.

And I agree with you, Geraldo, in that good police work now is getting into the mosques, getting into the communities. And if you want to call it profiling, call it whatever you want, but it's behavior profiling, not race or religious profiling. Get in there, talk to the people. And don't be afraid to say, "Hey, I understand this is a Muslim community, but I want to know, does anyone seem like they're radicalizing? Do you see a spiral on any of these young people to the point where they may do something stupid or kill some people?"


BOLLING: Do it in advance of that.

But the other discussion is arming our bases, our military.

PERINO: Absolutely.

BOLLING: Letting them hold arms. It something that has to happen. They go ahead and defense us. They protect us overseas on foreign soil. We need to start letting them protect themselves on our own soil.

RIVERA: I have a compromise. I have a compromise. One armed person per watch. One per watch.


RIVERA: Because we have 20 -- we have 22 suicides among veterans every day. Every day 22 suicides. We have one active-duty serviceman killing himself every single day. That's why there are not guns on Army bases.

BOLLING: I think that's a false argument, Geraldo.

GUILFOYLE: But -- if they're active duty, they probably should have it.

BOLLING: If they don't use a gun, they'll use something else to kill themselves. I would rather -- by the way, there were two people from the Ft. Hood shooting that I spoke to -- we spoke to over the weekend, and both of them said, "Had we been armed, at least half of those people would -- at least half, if not more, would have survived."

PERINO: Right.

RIVERA: With just one guy there.

GUILFOYLE: For a second, you guys had a little "I heart you" moment. And I just want to say, that was very nice.

PERINO: I have a very quick comment. I think that, in some ways, in addition to all those things that have just been said, we need to experiment quickly with some sort of a mechanism for local law enforcement to have a safe place for moms and dads who are worried about their children, as these people had been, who are now seeing a little bit of self-radicalization, for them to be able to call into a place where they can communicate safely and try to get help for their children and not necessarily lose them to law enforcement immediately...

RIVERA: Great idea.

PERINO: ... even if that is something that needs to be done. That is something I think we could do immediately and quickly. You don't have to pass a lot of laws. You can just get it done.

GUILFOYLE: I liked the way you said "mechanism." OK. Go ahead, Greg.

GUTFELD: It is also really bad intel. It's not just going an asking if there's anything going on. You have to infiltrate. You have to send people into these mosques undercover. You've got to do that.

The focus right now when they talk about this guy is on depression, which does two things. It takes the focus off the true sickness, which is Islamofascism, and it smears millions of people who have depression who don't go out and kill people.

RIVERA: What's the difference between this guy and James Holmes in Aurora?

GUTFELD: They are -- there's almost no difference...

RIVERA: Right.

GUTFELD: ... in the sense that they are lonely losers seeking infamy. That's why I agree with you. I do -- I'm 100 percent behind martyrdom as long as it's just you. Go ahead. I think it's really awesome if you off yourself as a martyr.

RIVERA: Do it in any spectacular way you want. Cut yourself in little pieces.

GUILFOYLE: Commit -- do it (ph).

GUTFELD: Don't bring other people with you, because we don't want to go.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: We've got plans.

GUILFOYLE: The problem is, they don't care about that. They don't care about other people. They care about themselves and having some kind of, like, sick, you know, glory and infamy.

GUTFELD: They're losers in life.

GUILFOYLE: Go away, losers.

OK, coming up, a professional surfer fended off a shark in South Africa over the weekend, and the whole thing was caught on live television. Stay tuned to see how he managed to escape.


RIVERA: This -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) sharks, but this video is incredible. I'm sure you've seen it. A three-time world surfing champion adding shark survivor to his resume this weekend. Watch as Mick Fanning evades and attacked by a gigantic shark in South Africa during a televised -- live televised tournament.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... last season, as you look at Fanning on the rankings, you can see a little splash.


RIVERA: Dude, little splash? That's the biggest fin I've ever seen.

Here's Fanning explaining exactly what happened.


MICK FANNING, PROFESSIONAL SURFER WHO SURVIVED SHARK ATTACK: I was on my board, and it was like right there. I saw, like, the whole thing just thrashing around, but I was getting dragged under by my leg rope. And then I felt like it kicked me off, but then it was still there going. And I was still attached to my board. And I felt like a ponchu (ph) a couple of times. And then -- and then it was dragging me. I felt like it was just dragging me underwater. And then all of a sudden, my leg rope broke. And I was all right. I was swimming; I was screaming.


RIVERA: Swimming and screaming. Greg, would you give up surfing if that were you?

GUTFELD: I hate this guy. He's already surfing in a championship. He's cool. He's cool. Then he fends off a shark. All he needed to do was shoot a terrorist. He's the coolest person that ever walked on the planet.

PERINO: And he had that accent.

GUTFELD: Yes, well, you like them.

GUILFOYLE: He was kind of handsome, too.

RIVERA: Were you, Dana, were you frightened by "Jaws" growing up?

PERINO: My parents didn't let me watch it. I never saw it.

RIVERA: At all? Not even the sequels?


RIVERA: My wife won't go in the bathtub now because of "Jaws."

GUILFOYLE: No, no, no, bathtubs are fantastic.

RIVERA: That's another topic, but we can go there if you want to.

Macho men, it's really macho men.

BOLLING: I figured this out. I know what this is. This is a -- and I love the series. It's "Sharknado." This is a cheap promo point, the upcoming -- This is "Sharknado" week. You realize that, right?

RIVERA: It is. It is "Sharknado." And...

GUILFOYLE: You're kidding, right?

PERINO: You think they planted it?

BOLLING: Sharks are a special terror. Should we talk about that for a second? You and Ziering?

RIVERA: Oh, yes. He transferred all the animosity to you to continue the tradition.

BOLLING: I'm holding the Ian Ziering torch.

RIVERA: Here we go. But isn't it -- isn't it true that there's something almost prehistoric about sharks? That the fear that you have is a visceral...

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Isn't it a good fear to have? Shouldn't you be afraid of sharks?

GUTFELD: No. Sharks are totally -- they're just misunderstood dolphins. Just because dolphins have a smile, everybody is, "Ooh, dolphins are great." But sharks can't smile. "Ooh, sharks are bad."

GUILFOYLE: How many dolphins eat people alive?

GUTFELD: Dolphins are evil. Dolphins travel in groups and attack fellow dolphins and do horribly, horribly perverted things.

PERINO: I've heard that.

GUTFELD: Look it up. They're perverts.

PERINO: My parents don't let me watch that, either.

PERINO: Will you still go in the water, Dana?

PERINO: I don't go in the water now.

RIVERA: Why not?

PERINO: Well, I don't like -- I grew up in the west, OK? So I might go in a lake, but not very far. I just -- I'm afraid of -- I respect the things that are living down there.

GUILFOYLE: He just ruined "A Dolphin Tale" of Harry Connick Jr. for me permanently. I don't know...

RIVERA: It was especially the evil and filthy things.

GUTFELD: They do bad things. They do bad things.

RIVERA: What channel are you watching?

GUILFOYLE: What are you saying?

RIVERA: Are you on the east end of Long Island, you don't go into the ocean?

GUILFOYLE: I do not go in. I only believe in controlled water.


GUILFOYLE: Because there are no sharks in there and then you get to choose who you invite in.

RIVERA: But as Greg suggests, statistically, it's very rare.

GUILFOYLE: I don't care.

GUTFELD: Geraldo, have you seen the dolphin adult channel? It's called Finemax. Just throwing that out there.

GUILFOYLE: He's going to look for it.

RIVERA: I've got to check it out. It will be right by the al Qaeda-ISIS channel.


RIVERA: "One More Thing" is up next.



GUTFELD: It's time for "One More Thing." Kimberly, kick it off.

GUILFOYLE: Hi. All right. So I have this special feature. I wanted to do it last week, but we didn't get a chance to. So for my "One More Thing" today, I want to show you, from "Making the Case," I said you can hash tag that on Twitter, on Facebook and I'll answer your question. Today I'd like to pick a question from Kaitlyn Bourg, who tweeted, "Advice for beginning (and nervous) law student. Is the bell curve as scary as I think it will be?"

It kind of is. However, the important part is, you get a great education in law school. There are many things that you can do. Apply yourself. Study the class...

GUTFELD: Don't become a lawyer.

GUILFOYLE: No, become a lawyer...

GUTFELD: No. No, no, no.

GUILFOYLE: ... and then you can also always come on television like the two of us. You can become a politician, a professor.

GUTFELD: Go to law school to get a TV career. That's smart.

GUILFOYLE: It's the education that matters and the way that it teaches you to think critically and logically.

RIVERA: I agree.

GUILFOYLE: You also get a lot of information in, processed quickly. So congratulations to you and good luck.

GUTFELD: Where am I? Eric.

BOLLING: All right. Very good. So we get this in (ph), and I'm absolutely baffled by it. Democrat presidential candidate, former Maryland governor, was on stage, and he said this. Watch.


MARTIN O'MALLEY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Every life matters, and that is why this issue is so important. Black lives matter. White lives matter. All lives matter.


BOLLING: So O'Malley got booed down. He had to issue an apology. He couldn't say all three lines again. He had to say, "Black lives matter." He wasn't allowed to say, or chose not to say, "White lives matter." And all lives matter. Don't all lives matter?

GUILFOYLE: I don't understand.

BOLLING: ... had to apologize.

GUTFELD: Don't you know better? Of course, not all lives matter. Haven't we learned that not all lives matter? We learned that from Planned Parenthood.

PERINO: No one should go to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

GUTFELD: All right.

GUILFOYLE: Lesson learned.


GUTFELD: Greg's Sports Corner.


GUILFOYLE: Oh, my gosh.

GUTFELD: Amazing. This week at the world championship chameleon volleyball took place in Australia. Let's roll the tape.

This is Lizard McGee breaking every record with hundreds of volleyballs coming after him. Clearly, just blew out the competition while changing colors. Check him out. He was awarded a trophy. And later after the performance, he went home with Clive Owen.

GUILFOYLE: That is so weird. What is that? What is that?

GUTFELD: ... living with Clive Owens, in a condo. Lizard McGee. Dana.

PERINO: Well, the good news is...

GUILFOYLE: That's animal cruelty.

PERINO: ... you have a lizard and you -- in 2017, I think, when you come to the new terminal at JFK -- you know, the one that they're building out there -- there's going to be this great new animal resort. It's called Ark. And you're going to be able to do all sorts of things there, including if you have a dog there, you have to bring him through. There's like a swimming pool. This is definitely a first-world problem, if you have to, like, worry about your dog.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my gosh. You're going to miss all your flights.

PERINO: But I mean, now Jasper might be able to travel with me, so there's a bonus.

GUTFELD: I don't know there was an ark there. Don't laugh.

GUILFOYLE: Please don't encourage him.

GUTFELD: Don't laugh. It was terrible.

GUILFOYLE: Terrible.

GUTFELD: I feel sick inside. Geraldo.

RIVERA: One thing I feel very good about inside is that, for the first time in 54 years, we have reestablished diplomatic nations with the nearby nation of Cuba.

For more than a half a century, we have had this cold war continuing. I visited Cuba several times in the '70s and early '80s. I was with Fidel Castro.

PERINO: Oh, there you are.

RIVERA: My short hair. It was great. He was supposed to show up at 9 in the evening. He showed up, actually, at 3 in the morning. But he was full of life, a very charismatic man. I know they hate him in South Florida, but get over it.

GUTFELD: Wow. Commie lover.


RIVERA: Now...

GUTFELD: Commie lover, Geraldo.

RIVERA: There's the flag going up at our embassy.


RIVERA: ... and their embassy. John Kerry going down on August 14 to open our embassy in Havana. It's about time.

GUTFELD: Oh, please. OK, Geraldo.

GUILFOYLE: He won't be issuing an apology.

RIVERA: Now we'll be giving back Guantanamo.


GUTFELD: All right. DVRs, never miss an episode, "The Five." That's it. "Special Report" next.

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