Kate Steinle's brother: 'The system has failed my sister miserably'

Family hit by tragedy at hands of illegal immigrant opens up on 'The Kelly File'


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," July 13, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, silence for another day as the White House again denies "The Kelly File" request to address the death of a young woman gunned down by an illegal immigrant.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly.

Last week funeral services were held for 32-year-old Kate Steinle shot and killed while out for a walk in a popular pier in San Francisco. Police say this man pulled the trigger. An illegal immigrant who had been deported five times and had wrapped up a string of felonies in this country. Kate's murderer was on the streets, thanks to San Francisco so-called Sanctuary city policy which the Obama administration has allowed to stand despite many opportunities to challenge it.

Today, "The Kelly File again" asked the White House to speak to Kate's death. They declined this despite the fact that President Obama has personally addressed the deaths of Trayvon Martin in Florida, Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri and Freddie Gray in Baltimore, Maryland. The White House even sending three officials to both the Brown and Gray funerals, not to mention sending in the FBI and the DOJ to investigate those matters.  For Kate Steinle, not a single Obama administration figure attended her funeral and not one has contacted her family. At 6:24 p.m. on the day she was shot, Kate sent his brother Brad this picture by text message. It shows Kate on the pier with her father and family friend. Her brother responded, beautiful picture. Before she could write back, Kate was murdered.

Joining me now in a "Kelly File" exclusive, Kate's Brother Brad Steinle.

Brad, thank you so much for being here. We know how hard it is. That day Kate was entertaining --  


KELLY: -- your father and I know that you have a very close family.  That's what is on your mind tonight.

STEINLE: Yes. Our family has been four of us until I recently married the love of my life. And -- but before that, it was just the four of us. And we leaned on each other. And loved each other as much as possible. That day it was just a normal day. My dad went out to visit my sister and take her to lunch. And enjoy the sights and sounds of San Francisco. The plan was, they are going to come back and come back to Pleasanton. My sister was going to spend the night and the following day, we were planning on having a gender revealing party for our baby girl.  But, you know, unfortunately, my sister was never able to find out the gender of our baby. And it is just, it is unthinkable what happened that day. But, you know, we find solace in the fact Kate was doing what she loved and she was with the man she loved most, my dad.

KELLY: How did you find out what happened?

STEINLE: That day, I got off work. A regular day. Went home and I got a call from my dad. And just screaming in the phone. That Kate is shot, Kate is shot, Kate has been shot, come to San Francisco. So, I just got in my car and picked up my mom and got to San Francisco as quick as possible. And waited in the hospital with all the positive thoughts we possibly could have had. We thought, you know, I thought that I would be able to sit next to Kate and hole her hand while she recovered from some type of surgery. But the most devastating outcome came to fruition. And now we're living a different life without Kate.

KELLY: How did you come to find out that it was an illegal immigrant who had been deported five times who took her life?

STEINLE: The following days, I was contacted by the Police Department. They said they had arrested a person of interest and just watching the news and found out that he was a seven-time convicted felon that had been deported five times. And, you know, essentially it sound as if he had been in jail. A federal prison for, since I believe 2009. And he was transferred to San Francisco for a past drug charge. He was released to San Francisco for a drug charge. And, you know, essentially, was the luckiest criminal that there has been. I mean, he was taken to San Francisco not charged and released to walk the streets of San Francisco and do the unthinkable. You know, I just don't understand.  I'm not really too politically savvy. But there's nobody that could look me in the eye and tell me that man had any right to be walking free in the city of San Francisco with the ability to shoot and murder my sister Kate.

KELLY: I know you're not a political man. And you don't come from a political family. You were not giving thought to sanctuary cities and so on prior to this event. What is your position on San Francisco's sanctuary city policy now?

STEINLE: Well, I'm a firm believer in the American dream. And I believe that people that come here and striving to make a better life for and provide a better life for their families, I think that's a great thing.  But the fact that San Francisco has this overreaching policy that essentially rolled out the red carpet for a convicted felon, a dangerous person and said, come into my city. We'll extend our arms and, you know, come stay here. You know, this is a place where you can do no wrong. And, you know, what the sheriff has said, regarding the fact that they've done nothing wrong. I would like him to look me in the eye and tell me that there is no blame to be put on this policy. It is ridiculous.

KELLY: Do you feel that the system failed her?

STEINLE: The system failed my sister in so many ways. Kate was the most amazing, beautiful person inside and out. She was loving. She looked at the world through the eyes of a child. And she had all of the possibilities and dreams that any young woman her age could have. And she was realizing that dream. And you know, unfortunately, because of the lack of structure and just, the lack of people taking a stand for what's right and getting things right, I think the system has failed my sister miserably.

KELLY: What do you make of this sheriff? Even in the wake of her murder is standing by this policy.

STEINLE: I think I speak for a lot of people. You know, like we said before, my views and my family were right in the middle. But there is no person that could tell me that that individual deserved to be walking around San Francisco with the ability to obtain a gun and shoot and murder the most beautiful person he could find walking around that day. I truly believe, it is evil and he looked for the happiest person. My sister walking with my dad, with a smile on her face. And I think that was the motive. To bring sadness and take away the best person he could see. So, I'm upset. And, you know, the sheriff's stance on this policy, it is ridiculous. There's a lot of finger pointing. I think people need to come together. Like-minded people. People in the middle and push for change.  Because no father should hold their daughter while they take their last breath. And no brother should feel like I feel, the loss of their sister and their best friend. And no mother should bury their child.

KELLY: We talked about the Department of Justice, the FBI going into these other cities in the wake of other deaths. Has anybody from the administration contacted you?

STEINLE: No. Nobody has contacted, either my parents nor I.

KELLY: Not the White House, not the president, not the vice president.

STEINLE: We have not heard a word.

KELLY: How about the mayor or the sheriff? Have they reached out to you or your family?

STEINLE: My dad did speak with the mayor. He offered his condolences. I have not heard a word from the sheriff. All I saw was his interview which I found to be, you know, it is insulting. To take no blame and, you know, the position that he's in. A lot of this lies on his shoulders.

KELLY: Do you feel like Kate's murder is being ignored at some level by federal officials?

STEINLE: Well, I wish somebody would reach out to us. You know, there are a lot of talks about Kate's law. And there is no doubt that something needs to be done to prevent this from happening ever again. And I know my family and I would like to be a part of the verbiage and the content that's in this law. We don't want something that reaches too far.  That's far left or far right. We just want something that will keep people safe and keep murderers off the streets. So nothing like this will ever happen again.

KELLY: As you mentioned, you and your wife are expecting your first baby. And you told me before that you and she went out in public the other day. And that your wife felt scared. Explain that.

STEINLE: Yes. It's just, when you go out, and you spend a nice day in San Francisco. Or you go out to dinner or you go on a walk. I used to feel safe and my wife used to feel safe. I think a lot of Americans feel as though, you know, it is a pretty safe country. You can go out and you can have a good time and not worry about being shot. We went out for lunch and we sat there and we were out in public for the first time. And my wife just sat there and broke down and cried at the lunch table. And I just don't understand how, I'm going to bring a life into this world here in five months. And how am I going to explain to her that for no reason at all, somebody walk up to my sister and shot her in the back and killed her.  I just, I can't -- how does a young person comprehend? How does a young person feel safe when something like that can happen? And the powers that be have policies that allow that.

KELLY: Kate was not able to be at the gender revealing ceremony you held to learn that she is having a baby niece. And I know that tore you up. But your family has been so beautiful in remembering her already. And I would like to close by asking you what you will remember most, what you will missed most about your sister Kate.

STEINLE: Well, any of the people that ever met Kate knew that she had the most infectious laugh. Most beautiful smile. When you look into her eyes, you feel like you can see right into her soul. She was so deep. And she was just the most amazing person. And I'm going to miss her being an aunt. I'm going to miss her being a best friend. And I'll just miss her spirit and laughter and the way she was just because she had a good soul and a good heart. I'll just miss all of her.

KELLY: The way you talk about her, you bring her to us and you do her memory a great service. Brad, thank you. Thank you so much.

STEINLE: Thanks, Megyn.

KELLY: Joining me now with more, Dana Perino who is co-host of "The Five" and the former press secretary for George W. Bush.

Dana, good to see you. It is the fault of the illegal immigrant who did it but others had a hand in this woman's death. And they need to speak to it and they won't.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST, "THE FIVE": Watching his interview makes me realize that if the White House, even if they were to call tomorrow. This is a family that does not seek any sort of revenge. They deserve to know at least somebody is thinking about them on the federal level. I am actually quite shocked that no one in the federal government has reached out. They have made choices before and prioritized their political decision making to reach out on other murders that have happened that did not involve a federal policy even. This does involve a federal policy that resulted in the breakdown between the federal and the local government that is running roughshod over a federal law on the immigration standpoint. The least that the White House could do was to answer your questions. But the right thing to do would be for them to place one phone call to this family. Just one.

KELLY: How could they not? I mean, as somebody who's worked in the White House. It is not like this case has not been national news. That has to be a conscious decision, does it not?

PERINO: Well, it's either a willful disregard for it or it is a decision based on something that I am troubled by. Which is that because Fox News has been willing to cover the story and because you and others on the network have been pushing it and pointing out the hypocrisy of speaking about one crime and not another. That for some reason they believe that because they hate Fox News so much, that it is okay for them to ignore this story because that's just right wing crazy people. Look at him. That is somebody, that is an American man who is about to start a family. And his life is changed irrevocably.

KELLY: Not a political man in any way.

PERINO: No. I still believe that if they had called somebody.  You've mentioned one thing, you've said, you asked him if the Vice President had called as well.

KELLY: Uh-mm.

PERINO: That is something that Joe Biden who obviously going through a lot of grief himself. I don't know. Maybe he was not in a position to do it. But I think it would have been the easiest thing to do for them to pick up the phone because they do have hearts still at the White House.  What they don't have is a handle on this federal breakdown of law between the federal government and the local government.

KELLY: You know, he told me a story last week after Kate's memorial service. The family and those there to remember her took all the flower and brought them out to a convalescent center to help those who were hurting. They didn't riot. They didn't protest in the street. They didn't burn anything. That in other cases has gotten the White House's attention. And it is as if, if you take a civilized route, if you take the respectful, quiet, sad but objectioning route. You get ignored. I mean, there are people in this country who are angry enough over this case to riot, to burn something, to protest. But they're not doing that. And the message the White House seems to be sending is, therefore, you will be ignored.

PERINO: They have learned how to be ignored. And neither of these families that we've heard about. And, you know, Michelle Malkin has done so much good reporting on this over the years. About people who have lost loved ones at the hands of illegal immigrants who should have been deported. The easiest thing for the White House to do would have been to make a phone call. It will take courage for them to see if they could figure out a way to deal with these sanctuary cities proliferated --  

KELLY: But is it too hard? Is it too hard on the White House to say they need to speak to every big national case involving controversial death or murder?

PERINO: I agree with that. In fact, when the White House first started, and President Obama made a couple of comments about individual isolated cases, that had nothing to do with federal government involvement.  And he commented. If you do that, you open yourself up to the inevitable questions of why not this or why not that. There actually is a federal connection here. There is a federal policy that is being ignored on their watch.

KELLY: Uh-mm.

PERINO: And I think the easiest thing, one would be a phone call.  And the second thing is, they've actually got a big problem. And I would turn to Attorney General Loretta Lynch. A new attorney general just got a lot of capacity to do more. I would take a look at these sanctuary cities and see what the law allows them to do to try to compel compliance with the federal government.

KELLY: They have options. They have rejected them thus far. Dana, good to see you.

PERINO: Thank you.

KELLY: Well, for all the talks about Kate's accused killer, there has been little reporting on exactly what happened on that pier? How could this have happened?

Trace Gallagher is live in San Francisco with what will become the criminal case against that man we just showed you.

Plus, Jose Antonio Vargas himself an illegal immigrant is here live to talk about his life in that status, as well as the Kate Steinle murder and the controversy surrounding his new MTV show called, "white people." And then, is New York City going down the tubes again. And what about the skyrocketing crime rates across this country right now?

David Clark is here live on a prediction now coming true.


KELLY: Breaking tonight, powerful reaction moments ago from Kate Steinle's brother to both her murder and the sanctuary city policy that put her killer back on the street. And as we learn more about Kate from her family, there are still questions about what exactly happened on that pier in San Francisco. And details of what will become the criminal case against the accused.

Trace Gallagher live on that pier tonight to walk us through the events. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: You know, Megyn, it was exactly this time 12 days ago that Kate Steinle was shot and killed on pier 14 behind me. And there are still so many details that we do not know.  But as the days go by, we are learning a lot more information about what happened in the moments prior to the shooting and in the moments after.  Watch.


Katherine Steinle, her father and a family friend had just finished having dinner and they decided to go for a walk on pier 14. Francisco Sanchez claims that he found some sleeping pills in a dumpster, took them and he too wandered out here on the pier. Under a bench he said he found a handgun wrapped in a t-shirt. That handgun four days earlier had been stolen from the car of the Bureau of Land Management agent. Now, Francisco Sanchez changed his story. First he said he came out to shoot sea lions with the gun. And then he says the gun went off accidentally. That he fired three shots. Boom, boom, boom.

But other witnesses only heard a single gunshot. Katherine Steinle was walking side by side with her dad and her friend. They were at a point in a pier where you can see the world famous ferry building and the bay bridge behind them. When they heard the pop, she told her father she didn't feel well. She quickly drop to the ground and they realized he had been shot. Francisco Sanchez claimed that he kicked the gun into the water and then lit up a cigarette and walked away. But when police arrived, there were descriptions of the suspect as well as video of him. Police picked him up one mile away on pier 40.


GALLAGHER: And the bottom-line here Megyn is that Francisco Sanchez should not have been on that pier at all. He should have been either in jail or out of the country. So, we went back out today to try to find more information about San Francisco's sanctuary city policies. We went to the sheriff's office. He was in but he would not talk to us. The mayor was supposed to hold a ribbon cutting ceremony today. But he didn't show up.  Apparently he called in sick. So we went to every single city council member's office to try to find out more. Most of them were in their offices. They would not respond to us. There is another city council meeting tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. The agenda does not have anything about sanctuary city policies. But it will when we get there -- Megyn.

KELLY: We'll see you tomorrow night. Trace, thank you.

Well, our next guest says the sanctuary city debate is a good example of media ignorance about immigration. He himself is an undocumented immigrant who was actually detained last July at a Texas airport. And then released by border agents with a notice to appear in court.

Jose Antonio Vargas joins us now. And we should mention, he is also the host of the new MTV show "White People" which we covered last week.  We'll get to that in a second.

Jose, thank you for being here.


KELLY: I mean, I realize, there is a difference between the illegal immigration issue as a whole and the sanctuary city policy. But as it relates to the later, do you agree that this case is a prime example of why that policy, those cities need to go?

VARGAS: Well, I mean, I think what we're showing here, right? Here's one fact that I think people have to really understand. Sanchez could have, this could have been prevented if I.C.E., the immigration customs and enforcement had issued a warrant for his arrest. They never issued a warrant.

KELLY: They should have done that but they didn't have to.

VARGAS: Actually they had to do that. They had to do that.   

KELLY: No, they did not. I refer you to 8CFR, section 287.7(d), upon a determination by Homeland Security to issue a detainer, local police shall maintain custody of the alien. A fact reiterated by the Department of Homeland Security and I.C.E. just today.

VARGAS: No, Megyn, I also refer you to the associated chiefs of police who support the sanctuary city policy. I mean, here's what's really important. Sanctuary cities exist so that immigrant who live in cities can actually report to police. That's the sheriff.

KELLY: I understand. I understand that's their justification. But the law is the law.


KELLY: And fidelity to the law is what binds us together as a country and failure to do so has real consequences. Like Kate Steinle and her family just learned.

VARGAS: Well, again, we are talking about possibly the most rogue agency in government. I.C.E., that is. Right? And you've already highlighted this. The failure of communication between federal agencies and local agencies. What should have happened? Now, mind you, we really should talk about this. If someone, for example, I've been in this country since I was 12. If I leave this country and try to come back to this country that I grew up in. There would be a lifetime bar for me. I couldn't be able to come back.

KELLY: I understand. I get it.

VARGAS: Now, how this man got in and out, in and out, in and out --  

KELLY: I get it. And I should underscore the proposed, you know, he says that he wants the Kate's law. He is not signing on to anybody's version of Kate's law. He wants input. He's not signing on to five-year mandatory minimums for an undocumented prisoner --

VARGAS: Yes. I have to say by the way, Megyn --

KELLY: I get. But I'm just saying Jose, it seems like this is one area we should be able to agree on. We the country. That we can't have this kind of policy. Affecting people in this way. And something needs to be done.

VARGAS: Yes. Hey. You're talking to an undocumented immigrant in this country who is waiting for the government to do something. I agree with you. Something has to be done. But I think the dangerous thing here though Megyn, is that this man does not represent all 11, 12 million undocumented immigrants.

KELLY: I understand that. I understand that. And those who suggests that are engage in hyperbole --  

VARGAS: And thank you for saying that.

KELLY: That is conceded. However, it is also problematic to ignore this and not use this as an opportunity to re-examine a lawless policy.  Before you go. Why are we talking about white people? On MTV? We had some fun at your expense last week because of the woman who was saying, this is what it is like to be white. You get this feeling that things belong to you. I don't know who she is. But I'm like, who is this woman who is speaking for all white people?

VARGAS: Well, I mean, I have to tell you by the way, there is a reason why we did this film. We did this film, right? And by the way it is not like a series. It is one TV special. Because whenever we talk about race in this country, we are walking on so much political correctness that young white people don't really know what to say. Nearly four out of five young white people say that they're uncomfortable talking about race.  Why is that?

KELLY: Because people call them racist if they say anything that is remotely close to controversial.

VARGAS: Megyn, that's why it was important to make this film where people can air out how they feel without feeling judged. By the way, have you had a chance to see the TV special?

KELLY: No. I only saw the preview.

VARGAS: I highly recommend that you actually watched it before you pass judgment.

KELLY: Ok. I only passed judgment on that one lady. I reserve judgment on the rest of it. Jose, thank you for being here, we appreciate it.

VARGAS: Thank you for having me.

KELLY: Well, Senator Ted Cruz tonight, calling out the New York Times and how claiming the paper is blocking good news about his book and is politically motivated. And now the Times are firing back. Howie Kurtz is next on what is turning out to be an epic media battle. Plus, some stunning new numbers on skyrocketing crime rates across this country.  Milwaukee County Sheriff, David Clarke is here live on his prediction that's now coming true.



DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY SHERIFF: Black people will be the losers in all of this as violent crime rates skyrocket over time, this means more black victims.


KELLY: Well, that was Milwaukee County Sheriff, David Clarke testifying before Congress two months ago about the rise in Ferguson Missouri, after the death of Michael Brown. Sheriff Clarke warned that police would unfairly blamed and law enforcement would pull back from the areas in which they're needed most. Now in places like the Big Apple, we're seeing pictures like this from the New York post, a homeless man urinating in the middle of a popular residential street in broad daylight.  As New Yorkers say, low level crimes are on the rise. And nationally, homicide rates are spiking, and how in big cities. Joining me now, Sheriff David Clarke, Sheriff, good to see you, and it is unbelievable. I will speak to this as a New Yorker. You can -- you don't need a study. You don't even need that picture on the front of the New York Post. You see the litter everywhere. You see homeless people in front of restaurants and stores and begging and interfering and stopping children, stabbings, and kidnappings, on the cover of the newspaper every other day in residential areas. And we have a mayor who says, I'm doing a great job. And you see it in several cities across this country right now.

CLARKE: Well, first of all, Mayor De Blasio with all due respect thinks he is doing a great job, then he's delusional. Look, I know how these things work, and I know what makes a city work in terms of public safety. I've been doing this for 37 years. You have to have three things.  You have to have strong and formal social controls, you have to have adherence to the social contract. And that social contract is that set of unwritten rules that we have with human interaction. The third thing that you have to have is a strong police presence. And right now, not only in New York City, not only in Baltimore, we saw it there, you look at the crime rates in Chicago. And the same thing is going on in my home town of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. You have none of those. And the most important of those is a strong police presence, but right now the police have their hands tied. They don't have the backing of the political community. They have gone through six, seven, eight months of constant bashing. They're told not to enforce quality of life enforcement. And that's what you need in a city like New York. Any time you have a densely populated area, you have to have quality of life enforcement, those are things like arresting people for public urination, fighting, drunken disorderly, and the cops are told right now to stand down and not enforce those quality of life violations. That's going to lead to more crime and disorder.


KELLY: And the Council Speaker -- comes out -- Melissa Mark-Viverito, and she wants to decriminalize public urination, public consumption of alcohol, failure to obey park signs, and jumping subway turn stops. She said it doesn't matter. But the Police Commissioner, Bill Bratton who worked with Giuliani 20 years ago to clean up this city in the first place says, hey, would you get a brain? That stuff is -- it is the gateway to other crimes and it is not just New York, Sheriff as we the New York murder rate has increased by 20 percent. Baltimore, up almost 50 percent, Chicago 23 percent, St. Louis, almost 60 percent, New Orleans, 39, Houston, 53 and as you mentioned Milwaukee, murder rate up 92 percent in just a year.

CLARKE: Well look, you know Commissioner Bratton, a friend of mine.  He knows how to get this done as well. His hands are being tied too, he had to fight to try to get more law enforcement officers. Public safety budgets across America for the last ten years have been cut, cut, and cut.  And now we're feeling the pinch. So if they want to save the city -- and I'll tell you, Megyn the thing that bothers me the most is you can't turn these things on and off like a switch. Once they lose control of these cities -- these great American cities, it is very hard to get them back.  The people who making these foolish decisions now, they were not around in the 70s and 80s when New York was unlivable, until finally they decided to clean that thing up. So once this thing goes the way it's going. When I made that comment in February, there was no starting revelation on my part.  But it was based on my 37 years of serving my community in public safety.

KELLY: Sheriff, thank you, sir.

CLARKE: Very welcome.

KELLY: Well, Senator Ted Cruz is going at it hard with the New York Times, accusing the paper of blacklisting his book for political reasons.  Howie Kurtz is next on the papers response and extraordinary exchange between these two parties.



GOV. SCOTT WALKER, R-WIS., 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: After a great deal of thought, and a whole lot of prayer, we are so honored to have you join with us here today, as we officially announce that we are running to serve as your President of the United States of America.


KELLY: Well, that was Wisconsin Governor, Scott Walker earlier today, officially throwing his hat into the race for the White House. Governor Walker highlighting his battles with labor unions in Wisconsin, portraying himself as a fighter for America, his entrance into the race brings the ever-expanding Republican field of Presidential Contenders now to 15 on the GOP side, 15 and counting. And speaking of GOP contenders, tonight Senator Ted Cruz is accusing the New York Times of lying about his book and engaging in a partisan cover-up. And he is getting some powerful support.  Last week the paper omitted Cruz' new book, A Time for Truth, from its best sellers list, claiming that sales of the book were fueled by bulk purchases, not individual purchases. But today the massive online retailer Amazon said, it has no evidence of bulk purchases and the book's publisher Harper Collins, is also pushing back on that claim, as did Senator Cruz who is now demanding an apology from the paper. Joining me now, Howie Kurtz, the Host of Media Buzz on FNC, ok Howie, so this is turning into a bit of a dust up, and I am personally amazed to see the Times commenting in this much detail on why they kept his book off the list. They usually say it's off. We don't reveal our methods, pound sand. But they seem to really be pushing back on him and him on them.

HOWIE KURTZ, "MEDIABUZZ" HOST: Well, first this is a great spectator sport. This is the best thing that could have happened to Ted Cruz. He is getting 100 times so much more publicity than a mere mention on the Times' Best Seller List, it enables to beat up on the bias mainstream media -- and by the way, it's helping him already to sell more books.

KELLY: Maybe he'll make it on the list this time. But he's come out and said, look, they're not bulk purchases, so the viewers know sometimes famous people, rich people, if they want their book to be a best seller, they'll have somebody go buy 5,000 copies of it, and then they'll give them out and boom, guess what, it becomes a national best seller. That's what they say he's doing. But Harper Collins came out and said it's not true, Amazon came out and said it's not true, it's not like these guys are known for constantly picking fights with the Times on the Best Seller List.  They're saying the Times are wrong.

KURTZ: Well, the New York Times' version of this is that the charges are ludicrous, because Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck have made the list, some pretty prominent conservatives. But here's where the Times loses a debate, and it is Amazon weighing in, it's Cruz' book being number 4 on the Wall Street Journal list, number 7 on the Barnes and Noble List.  Both of which exclude these bulk purchases. Finally, I still see Times kind of saying, well, we can't really tell you our secret sauce, because we have to guard that. And the whole thing is shrouded in mystery. Which book stores and what's the formula? And therefore, it's the opposite of transparency, so Cruz rightly says, where is your evidence of these so called bulk purchases, and the Times isn't saying.

KELLY: It is clear that there is a subjective element in the Times' decision as to who will make the list. And we heard this from other conservative authors. We heard it from Dinesh D'Souza, we heard it from David Limbaugh, brother of Rush Limbaugh. These are not -- Ted Cruz is not the first conservative to complain that he's been pushed off the list. I would argue in the case of Bill O'Reilly, there is no denying that man. He is the number one Author in the country. You can't like -- some things will be a little too obvious.

KURTZ: Right. But I just think the Times is in an untenable position. Because while it's doubling down on its defense -- and usually publishers and authors don't want to take on the New York Times because it is so powerful with that book review section. But here you have a guy who is running for President, and he puts out this book, and it's selling a lot of copies, and he can't get on the list. The back drop here with the A.P. shooting itself in the foot. With that photo not long ago, Megyn of a Ted Cruz Second Amendment event with all the guns pointed at his head. It does reinforce the notion that main stream media, not looking to give the Texas Senator much of a break.

KELLY: Howie, great to see you.

KURTZ: My pleasure.

KELLY: Well, the effort to rewrite parts of our history has now reached a point where some cities are not only removing monuments to the civil war. One town now wants to dig up the grave of a confederate general and his wife and give their bodies the heave-ho. That is right after this break.


KELLY: Well, in the weeks since a young white man murdered nine black parishioners in a church, we have seen the growth of a viral campaign to wipe expunge the Confederate Flag and wipe-away any tribute to the Southern Confederacy. Cities are now planning to remove monuments, and memorials dedicated to confederate heroes, generals and so on. And today we heard Memphis is even planning to exhume the body of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest, and his wife from the 110-year-old resting place, and send them someplace else. The issue has even reached the campaign trail, and tonight we are joined by Carly Fiorina, Former Hewlett Packard CEO, and Republican Candidate for President. Is this just ridiculous? The bodies are coming out of the graves now?

CARLY FIORINA, FORMER HEWLETT-PACKARD CEO: It is ridiculous. But more than that, it's sad. It's sad when people feel as though we have to change history. We are not a perfect nation. We have worked hard over the course of our nation to become as Lincoln said a more perfect union. But to wipe all the history away makes us a weaker nation, not a stronger one.

KELLY: If we'll dig up these dead bodies of bad people we're going to be digging for a long, long time.

FIORINA: That is correct.

KELLY: All right. You had some thoughts on Hillary Clinton. You know she's running for President as I mentioned. And tonight, news broke about the State Department -- Politico breaking this news that the State Department has not turned over two Benghazi-related e-mails to Congress.

FIORINA: Yes, well so -- let's go through this. Hillary Clinton says in a press conference recently, oh, I'm eager to turn over all the e-mails that the American people can see. Well now we know the State Department hasn't turned over all the e-mails. We also know those e-mails link Hillary Clinton and the State Department for the first time to the Susan Rice talking points. This was all a video and a demonstration. Do you remember we now know on the night of September 11th, the State Department and the White House knew? This was a preplanned terrorist attack. Two days later, Hillary Clinton stands over the bodies of the fallen and talks about a video. Susan Rice goes on television and says it's a video, it's a demonstration. Hillary Clinton later denies that she had anything to do with those talking points, false. She never revealed a private server in her basement, until it was discovered. And then when it was discovered, she wipes it clean. Nearly two years after she leaves the Department of State. Megyn, I think we now have enough information to understand that Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State has engaged in gross dereliction of duty. She has engaged in a cover up, and she has blood on her hands.

KELLY: Blood on her hands?

FIORINA: Yes ma'am.

KELLY: Is that too strong? Because they point to the fact that they say a house report, they say essentially exonerated her and they don't believe there's a smoking gun.

FIORINA: Well, listen to the litany I just went through. Really, I turned over all the e-mails? No, I didn't. I had nothing to do with the talking points? Yes, you did. It was a video and a demonstration? It turns out it was a preplanned terrorist attack. I didn't tell anyone I had a private server, I didn't tell anyone I had a private e-mail account. But when you found it out, I wiped it clean, 55,000 e-mails that we will never know about.

KELLY: The left and Hillary Clinton are going to deem anybody who raises the issue of Benghazi at this point as part of the conspiracy faction, they're already doing that.

FIORINA: That's right. Which is we need to have a nominee who will not be afraid to bring this up over and over and over. Because in fact, she is engaging in a cover up, I think it's really clear now. By the way, last week, she said she hadn't been subpoenaed on this. And Trey Gowdy has to come out and say actually, she was subpoenaed.

KELLY: Carly Fiorina, always interesting getting your perspective.


KELLY: We'll be right back, don't go away.


KELLY: And so our interview with Kathryn Steinle's brother, Brad is already getting a lot of attention. If you missed it, you can go, we have already posted the segment there, and we're going to put there -- they have a Gofundme account to try to help the family with their expenses and support the causes that Kate loved. It already has gotten a bunch of donations, you can see it there. That is in her memory. And tune in tomorrow night, we have a bring line up. Brit Hume, Marc Thiessen, Ann Coulter, Arthur Aidala, and Mark Eiglarsh back for a legal debate, thanks for watching. I'm Megyn Kelly.  

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