This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," July 12, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
BRET BAIER, HOST: I’m Bret Baier, in for Chris Wallace.
World powers race against the clock for an Iran nuclear deal.
JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: If the tough decisions don't get made, we are absolutely prepared to call an end to this process.
BAIER: Now, a new deadline as the U.S. and Iran attempt to set aside their differences. But will Congress try to sink a bad deal?
We'll discuss with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. It's a "Fox News Sunday" exclusive.
Plus, Hillary Clinton faces attacks from presidential candidates on the left and the right.
GOV. BOBBY JINDAL, R-LA., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Give Bernie Sanders credit. At least he's honest. At least he calls himself a socialist.
BAIER: We sit down with two candidates making a run for the White House. Republican Governor Bobby Jindal of Louisiana, and former Virginia Senator Jim Webb, the latest contender in the Democratic race.
Then, despite stirring up controversy, Donald Trump rises in the polls and leaves open the third-party door.
DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Many people have asked me to go independent. I think I’d do very well if I went independent.
BAIER: We'll ask our Sunday panel whether he could be a spoiler for the GOP.
All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday."
BAIER: And hello again from Fox News in Washington.
The U.S. and other world powers are working with a new goal of Monday to reach an agreement in the Iran nuclear negotiations. It's the fourth extension in the marathon talks and now we have word from Vienna a deal could be within reach.
Fox News correspondent Kevin Corke has the latest -- Kevin.
KEVIN CORKE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Bret, the U.S., Iran and those five world powers have given themselves until Monday to reach that deal but there's reporting as you point out to suggest overnight that a deal could be imminent and announced perhaps as soon as tomorrow.
Secretary of State John Kerry and his team have gone to great lengths to reach a deal despite Iran’s repeated violations of U.N. sanctions and general destabilizing behavior in the Middle East. Now, this final push comes amid accusations from Tehran that the West is trying to change the terms of the deal at the 11th hour.
And, yes, there are still several major sticking points. Among them, Iran would like immediate relief from the U.N. arms embargo that dates back to 2006. It’d also like to limit access to their military sites during possible inspections and perhaps most importantly, they would like to speed up sanctions relief because of the beleaguered economy there.
Now, despite all of the road blocks, Secretary Kerry remains optimistic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: Very good meeting, very positive. I think we're getting to some real decisions. So, I would say, even as we have a few tough things to do, I remain hopeful, hopeful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORKE: Now, as you know, Bret, of course, the goal of the deal is to increase the time it would take for Iran to produce enough enriched uranium fuel for a single weapon up from estimate of two to three months to about a year. And if there is a deal, that would limit Iran's enrichment program for expect at least about a decade and that certainly would be a major development -- Bret.
BAIER: Kevin, thank you.
Well, any deal the negotiators strike must go before Congress, which now has 60 days to review it. So what are its prospects on Capitol Hill?
Joining me here in D.C.: Senate Majority Mitch McConnell, who has warned against accepting a weak deal.
Senator, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, R-KY., MAJORITY LEADER: Glad to be with you.
BAIER: Let’s star here -- what does an acceptable Iran deal look like?
MCCONNELL: Well, look, we already know that it's going to leave Iran as a threshold nuclear state. We know that. It appears as if the administration's approach to this was to reach whatever agreement the Iranians are willing to enter into.
So I think it's going to be a very hard sell if it's completed in Congress. There was another option here I would like to remind people -- rather than spending multiple years trying to get one of the worst regimes in the world to agree to limit their nuclear capabilities, we could ratchet up sanctions even farther because that's what brought them to the table in the first place.
But the administration chose to do down this path and we're going to be interested in things like will Iranians reveal their past research and development, what have they done on the past on this subject? Is it verifiable? Will we be able to look at all of their military bases?
And, by the way, even if you're satisfied on all of that, Bret, there's all of the other collateral activities and what they're up to in Syria and Lebanon and Gaza and Yemen --
BAIER: Which is not a part of this.
MCCONNELL: Which is not a part of it. And apparently, the ballistic missile capability, the ability to launch such a weapon to a target is not addressed as well. So, this is going to be a very hard sell for the administration. They'll have to get at least 34 votes, assuming a resolution of disapproval passes. The president vetoes it. He'll have to get at least 34 senators to go forward.
BAIER: But you know where the head count is, just looking at what you look at in the Senate. I mean, you say it will be tough. But where will the red line be, for example, for Democrats who have said and expressed concern for -- about this potential deal?
MCCONNELL: I think they're going to have the same concerns I just outlined. And I know there will be a strong pull not to go against the president on something as important as this is to him. But I hope there will be enough Democrats willing to look at this objectively and look at the facts. Is this a good deal? Is this likely to achieve the outcome we had hoped for?
If they can bring themselves to do that and make an objective evaluation of it, I think it's going to be a very hard sell for the administration.
BAIER: According to a few press reports, the White House had a meeting Monday, a conference call with liberal groups, progressive groups saying -- getting ready for this push, saying it will be the president's number one foreign policy achievement. But at the end, it said, "The White House remains confident that if Congress rejects the deal, the president could veto that action and continue to move forward."
MCCONNELL: That's what I was talking about. It would require 34 votes for him to go forward.
BAIER: Right. So, can you see them getting that?
MCCONNELL: Well, I think it's going to be a hard sell. He knows that the resolution of disapproval is likely to be introduced, is very likely to pass and very likely to get over 60 votes.
If he vetoes that, in order to sustain the veto, he would need 34 votes -- which is what I was referring to earlier.
BAIER: Right, right.
MCCONNELL: And I think it's going to be a hard sell. Hard sell.
BAIER: If it all gets shot down, then what? What's next?
MCCONNELL: Ratchet up sanctions. That's what brought them to the table in the first place. That's why they were hurting. That's a strategy that I think could have been deployed a couple years ago that could have got us to a better place.
BAIER: There are other foreign policy achievements according to the Obama administration. They’re talking about them. One of them is Cuba.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: We don't have to be imprisoned by the past. When something isn't working, we can and will change. Americans and Cubans alike are ready to move forward.
I believe it's time for Congress to do the same. I’ve called on Congress to take steps to lift the embargo that prevents Americans from traveling or doing business in Cuba.
Nobody expects Cuba to be transformed overnight. I believe that American engagement through our embassy, our businesses, and most of all, through our people, is the best way to advance our interests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BAIER: So, Senator, will Congress, will the Senate confirm a U.S. ambassador to Cuba? Will Congress lift the embargo?
MCCONNELL: Let me quote somebody I rarely quote. Former President Jimmy Carter, who said he’d be hard pressed to think of any place in the world where we were in better shape now than we were when President Obama came to office. President Carter got it right.
What the president -- this president has been involved in is talking to a lot of countries -- talk, talk, talk. And Cuba is a good example. He thinks that simply by engaging with them we get a positive result.
I don't see any indication that Cubans are going to change their behavior. What are we getting as a result of normalization of relations? I think it -- I think we’ll not confirm an ambassador. They make -- believe they don't need that.
There are sanctions that were imposed by Congress I think the administration will have a hard time getting those removed. This is a policy that there is substantial opposition to in Congress.
BAIER: You know conservatives are frustrated that they feel that Congress -- even though controlling both chambers -- is not pushing back against the Obama administration. It’s had some successes with Obamacare, his -- what he calls his legislative achievement, surviving two Supreme Court challenges.
You helped him get the trade agenda across the finish line. Most believe eventually he's going to get Iran and Cuba through, too, if you ask him.
Is that fair?
MCCONNELL: I wouldn't count on that. I mean, he can win on Iran on this deal with holding 34 Democrats, because that's the way the approval process is structured.
But on trade, this is a long standing conservative position. We’re a trading country, free trading country. And Trade Promotion Authority that we work with the president on is not just for him, it’s for the next president, too. It's a six-year deal. We want the next Republican president to have an opportunity to enter into trade agreements and have them have them considered by Congress.
BAIER: Are there other things on the agenda that you think you can get bipartisan consensus with before the election?
MCCONNELL: Yes, I think so. I think we’re going to be able to do something on cybersecurity. We’re going to do -- this coming week, we're going to pass a rewrite of No Child Left Behind, which conservatives have wanted for a long time and some Democrats as well. Yes, we're going to be able to accomplish some things.
But all of us need to remember -- the president, whoever that is, can veto a measure. He has -- it's a very powerful position. And, therefore, we will not be able to do everything conservatives would like to do.
BAIER: Senator, you mentioned cybersecurity. Hackers broke into the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, stealing background investigation forms, fingerprint records, Social Security numbers for more than 22 million people.
The Washington Post put it in perspective. One in 15 Americans, if all the people called up in OPM hack live together, they would be the third largest state after California and Texas. More people were affected by the hack than are unemployed in American. Six million more Americans got hit by the OPM hack that have signed up for ObamaCare. Fewer people are projected to attend college and graduate school in the U.S. this year than were affected by this hack.
Friday, the director of the office, Katherine Archuleta, resigned after saying she was going to stay on to fix the problem. So, what is your assessment of this problem and how now can the Obama administration protect the data and provide some security for the 22 million people affected?
MCCONNELL: I’m not sure they can. I mean, it's total incompetence -- complete and total incompetence. And resignation of the head of OPM is just the beginning.
This is a total mess. It's no wonder they had a hard time with the Web site which they launched Obamacare. These cybersecurity issues are enormously significant. What we're going to do is before August, take a step in the direction of dealing with the problem with information sharing bill that I think will be broadly supported. This is an administrative disaster that the president needs to get a hold of and get straightened out soon.
BAIER: A couple more things. In the wake of all the attention of sanctuary cities, after this murder of 32-year-old Kate Steinle in San Francisco, authorities say, at the hands of an illegal immigrant, five-time deportee -- will Congress move on sanctuary city legislation?
MCCONNELL: We should. I think any sanctuary city -- for your viewers, that means that these are places where they choose to ignore the law -- should not be receiving federal criminal assistance money, period.
BAIER: What do you make of -- what do you make of Donald Trump's success in the polls?
MCCONNELL: Look, I’m not going to get into all of the presidential candidates. We've got a bunch of ‘em. At the end of the day, I think we're going to have a candidate who can win.
BAIER: Here's a senator -- also who happens to be a candidate -- focus of criticism you are in his new book, "A Time for Truth." Texas Senator Ted Cruz, he accuses you and Senate leadership, of trying to dry up his fundraising, planned hit pieces in the press, end up hurting him. He says you said one thing publicly, another privately about the debt ceiling. He accuses you of capitulating to Democrats, to avoid bad headlines, says that, essentially, you’ve been lying. Not a great portrayal.
MCCONNELL: Look, I’m not going to take the bait and get into a discussion about the presidential campaign. We've got four senators running for president. A whole lot of other people as well. I think they can all do that without my assistance.
BAIER: So, can a candidate who calls you and other Republicans part of the Washington cartel win the nomination?
MCCONNELL: Well, look, it's a free country. These candidates can say anything they want to.
BAIER: Senator, thanks for your time.
MCCONNELL: Thank you.
BAIER: This week, former Virginia Senator Jim Webb became the fifth candidate vying for the Democratic presidential nomination, putting an emphasis on his foreign policy chops. So, what kind of challenge does he pose for frontrunner Hillary Clinton? He joins us next, live.
BAIER: Former Virginia Senator Jim Webb is a decorated Vietnam War veteran who served as Navy secretary under President Ronald Reagan. He ran for Senate and won as a Democrat in Virginia, vehemently opposed the Iraq war. Now, he's running for the Democratic presidential nomination, facing an uphill battle against former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who is leading the field by double digits.
Senator Webb joins me now.
Senator, welcome to "Fox News Sunday."
FORMER SEN. JIM WEBB, D-VA., 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, thank you. Good to be with you.
BAIER: Let's start with Iran as it looks like this deal is coming to a head. You said this week about the Iran deal that the administration is trying to get, quote, "The end result of this could be acquiescent in allowing Iran to develop a nuclear weapon."
So, it sounds like you would walk away from the table. Is that fair?
WEBB: I would be hesitant with what I see right now. I agree a lot with what Senator McConnell just said, that what we do not want to do at this point is to send a signal to the region that we are accepting the notion that eventually Iran would be acquiring nuclear weapons.
There are other ways that we can improve relations with Iran, confidence building gestures as we did with the Soviet Union over many years. Just that you don't have to have this deal in order to move forward with them. But -- you know, they seem pretty optimistic this morning from Europe. So, we'll see what they bring to the table.
BAIER: As we said, you're highly decorated Vietnam veteran, former secretary of the navy, former senator who was intimately involved in military and foreign affairs while in office. This week, the Obama administration announced they're cutting the Army back 40,000. That’s outside of the sequestered cuts.
Your reaction to that?
WEBB: Well, we go through these cycles whenever we have extended ground commitments. We've done it three or four times in my adult life.
So, I have great deal of confidence particularly in Joe Dunford, who’s now going to be chairman of the Joint Chiefs. I’ve known him for many, many years. I don't think that military leadership would be backing anything that they don't believe can work. The ground forces tend to constrict on wherever we get away from these long-term engagements. So, we’ll have to see.
BAIER: So, you support it?
WEBB: No, I like -- I agree with the notion that ground forces are reduced when our extended ground commitments go down. But I don't know the numbers. I’d have to take a look and see where they are.
BAIER: The president defended this past week, his efforts, the administration efforts to degrade and destroy ISIS in Iraq and Syria.
But the defense secretary, Ash Carter, was up on the Hill talking about the training of Syrian fighters to go after ISIS in Syria. And here's what he said:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASH CARTER, DEFENSE SECRETARY: As of July 3rd, we're currently training about 60 fighters. This number is much smaller than we’d hoped for at this point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BAIER: The administration allotted $500 million. They were hoping to get 5,400 Syrians. This is 60. Is that acceptable?
WEBB: The long-term solution to the ISIS problem is going to have to come from the Sunni leadership in the region. In the interim period, we need to define specifically what our national security interests are and how we can bring that about.
I don't think you're -- I think you’re going to get there with us training these opposition forces in that way. It didn't work very well a few years ago before is showed up. But in terms of our national security interests, I think you're seeing some impact.
BAIER: You mentioned General Dunford. He was up on Capitol Hill, was asked what is the biggest threat facing the U.S. He quickly answered Russia.
Do you agree with him?
WEBB: I would probably say China long-term strategic threat, if you look at the expansion that they have conducted over the last 15 years. I’ve been talking about it in the South China Sea and building blue water navy.
I take General Dunford's point about the turbulence with respect to Russia, but I think our friends and allies in Europe have done a pretty good job of helping us address that.
BAIER: As president, would you send weapons to the Ukrainians, for example?
WEBB: I would be open into looking at that. And I think that's where General Dunford was in his confirmation hearing. May I say something about this situation with Mr. Trump?
BAIER: Of course.
WEBB: I think the best comment that I’ve read in terms of why this is so inflammatory with Mexican-American community comes from an individual who served with me in Vietnam during some very tough combat, Oscar Munoz, who’s a Mexican-American, very fine soldier as are so many of them. He wrote a letter to Mr. Trump and he allowed me to post it on my Facebook page.
And I hope anyone who cares about this issue will take a look at what he said. He basically said, "Dear Mr. Trump, my father came from Mexico as a worker and not as a rapist. And by the way, I served my country in the United States Marine Corps. Where were you?"
So, you know, this kind of divisive, inflammatory rhetoric by people who want to be commander in chief is not helpful and we have saw -- we’ve seen from the liberal side as well, we’ve seen this kind of rhetoric as it goes to Southern white cultures. We need to be inclusive, recognize that we have problems, that we can come together to solve them.
But don't be throwing these bombs to our cultural groups.
BAIER: Well, to your point, Senator, you know, you mentioned the Democratic race. In Real Clear Politics average of polls, you are 2.3 percent. And well behind the front runner Hillary Clinton. You have an uphill climb against this Clinton machine.
Most political analysts will tell you that Democrats have moved resolutely to the left and that basically Hillary Clinton has renounced Clintonism which was the vital core of the senator used to be in your party. In a party that seems to thrill to Bernie Sanders and maybe long for Elizabeth Warren, who are the Jim Webb Democrats?
WEBB: I believe we can -- we can bring a different tone to the Democratic Party. You're right. The party has moved way far to the left. And that's not my Democratic Party but -- in and of itself. We need to bring working people back into the formula.
Next Saturday, in the far southwest of Virginia, there's going to be a medical clinic, a remote area medical clinic to take care of people who don't have medical insurance. It’s out at the wise county fairgrounds. I hope FOX will go down there and take a look at it. They're going to take care of about 6,000, at least, if historical records hold, people with no medical care. They'll pull 3,000 teeth. And these are people forgotten by both parties. And I think they need a voice.
BAIER: Regarding the Confederacy and the battles we’ve seen go well beyond South Carolina after they took down the Confederate battle flag. House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi wants to ban certain state flags from the House side of the Capitol. Democrats would like to ban Confederate symbols from federal cemeteries. The Memphis City Council has voted to disinter Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest.
So, the question is -- is this racial healing or part of political grandstanding?
WEBB: Unfortunately, I think you're seeing it from both sides, which is why I mentioned the situation with Donald Trump with respect to Mexican-Americans. We're seeing an issue which should have been resolved and now is resolved, flying the Confederate battle flag in public places turning -- morphing into something much different.
And I’ll tell you, the best phone conversation I had during this whole last couple weeks was to a very close friend of mine, Nelson Jones. He’s an African-American, fellow marine, fellow Naval Academy graduate, Georgetown law. He was my counsel when I was in Senate.
And I said, Nelson, we have been talking about this for 40 years, that American South has never been black versus white. It's always been a veneer, inside and outside, manipulating the emotions of black versus white. What are you hearing down in Houston on this issue?
He said, I was just at the barber shop. I asked brothers what they thought about this and they said, "Here we go again. When we’re going to talk about jobs? When we’re going to talk about education? When we’re going to talk about harmony and bringing people together?" And that's what inclusive leadership needs to be.
BAIER: Senator Webb, thanks for your time.
WEBB: Thank you.
BAIER: Up next, the general slated to be President Obama's top military adviser, as we just mentioned, calls Russia the greatest threat to our national security. Our Sunday group joins the conversation and discusses whether Mitt Romney was right all along.
Plus, what would you like to ask the panel about Russia, about negotiations with Iran, anything else. Just go to Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday. We may use your question on the air.
BAIER: It's down to the wire in Europe's effort to save Greece from collapse. E.U. leaders are emergency -- are meeting in an emergency summit to discuss the latest aid proposal that could be Greece's final financial lifeline. If there is a deal, Athens could be bankrupt by the time world financial markets open Monday.
FOX senior foreign affairs correspondent Amy Kellogg is live in Athens -- Amy.
AMY KELLOGG, FOX NEWS SENIOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Bret.
Well, on Friday, it really did look like Greece and its creditors were very close to a deal, but, Bret, it turns out that is not the case at all.
However, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has just been quoted out saying that he is willing to compromise.
Now, where in the past of these negotiations, the hurdles have been technical. This time, they are being held up on the issue of trust and concern that the Greek government simply won't do what it has promised.
Now, trust and particularly from German side has eroded since the Greek prime minister called a referendum last Sunday here. Voters said no to a package of austerity measures but less than a week later, their government turned around to creditors and said, OK, yes, to pretty much the same sort of package. And that is another reason why credibility is becoming more of an issue in these last-minute talks.
It being Sunday here, Greeks have taken to the beach in large numbers. Many of them say because the sea and the sun are the only things that haven't been taken from them and that are free. They've seen their economy shrink by a quarter in recent years, and with that, cuts in pensions, loss of jobs, and an ever-fraying social net.
KELLOGG: Bret, Eurozone finance ministers are meeting in Brussels later on today. Eurozone leaders will meet and it had been hoped that a deal would be clinched by the end of today. But it's actually looking increasingly likely, many say, that the creditors will want to see the Greek parliament actually enact some legislation on reforms before further debt relief is agreed. Bret.
BAIER: Amy Kellogg in Athens. Amy, thank you. Time now for our Sunday group. Fox News senior political analyst, Brit Hume. Julie Pace, who covers the White House for the Associated Press. GOP strategist Karl Rove. And Fox News political analyst, Juan Williams. OK. Brit, Greece.
BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it looks kind of bad either way. Because the new austerity measures are put in place by the Greeks. That is likely in the near term for sure and possibly for the long, to further suppress growth. What that country needs is some economic growth. And the economy is flat on its back. And while the pension payments and other government spending has a lot to do with that, and the debt is enormous, there's no way out I think for Greece to climb out of this without some kind of economic growth, and austerity measures in the near term will likely retard that.
BAIER: And Julie, the trust level with creditors is pretty low.
JULIE PACE, AP: I think that's what's so interesting about this situation this weekend. Is that it's not a matter of what a package would look like. Everyone can basically agree on what Greece needs. It's just a matter of will Greece be able to carry out a package of bailouts? Because we've been at this table before. Greece has had previous bailouts and we're still in this same situation.
BAIER: I want to turn, Karl, to another deal that's pending. The Iran nuclear deal. You heard Senator McConnell say it's going to be a tough sell for Congress, even if they get across the finish line in Vienna. Your thoughts?
KARL ROVE, FORMER BUSH WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: I think it will be a tough deal. Because if you take a look at the administration's red lines early on -- we're going to have any time, anywhere inspections, and now we're talking about managed access. They were going to do away with the ability to enrich uranium. They still retain the ability to enrich uranium. We were going to do away with their infrastructure. They keep the infrastructure. We were talking about snapbacks on the sanctions, which is very hard to understand how we're going to snap back sanctions that were passed in years past when we had the support of Russia and China, when we will not have the automatic support of Russia and China at the United Nations to, quote, snap these back.
And this is being also done -- this latest episode with the Iranians trying to tie this into not only the sanctions that are placed on them for their nuclear program, but also the sanctions that were placed on them for developing a ballistic missile program and for illicit traffic in arms. They want in essence a license to proliferate and a license to further engage in destabilizing the Middle East.
So -- if I were a Democrat, I would be really worried about having to vote on this. Because a bad deal could be worse than no deal at all, because a bad deal might explode next year in the middle of the presidential campaign.
BAIER: So, Juan, if they get this deal, as is being forecast now, can the administration hold the line with Democrats? As Senator McConnell says they need 34, because that's -- if the president vetoes this disapproval.
JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS ANALYST: That's the super majority. And so the key here is very interesting. Interesting political game going on. It extends into presidential politics. And the politics is, get Hillary Clinton, former secretary of state, to come out against the Iran deal, because if she comes out against the deal -- and Republicans would be quick to say if any deal comes forward that Hillary Clinton is responsible and a co-indicted conspirator with President Obama in terms of making this deal happen -- that they would be arming the most dangerous country.
So what you heard this morning from Senator McConnell, what you just heard from Karl, is Republicans saying the pressure is on the Democrats. We're going to hold Democrats accountable. And the question is whether the Democrats in the Senate will remain loyal to President Obama on this issue. Right now, the argument is the status quo is unacceptable, and that the only alternative, as you heard this morning, is additional sanctions. But don't forget. This is not a one-sided deal. You have the Iranians who say they would accelerate their nuclear program if a deal doesn't come about.
BAIER: Overwhelming response on Facebook, Julie. Jennifer Long Moulton writes about the Iranians. "They have lied to us in the past. Why even considering trusting them now?" Is this a problem for Democrats if they get this deal and have to rally those senators?
PACE: I think it potentially could be. I think Juan makes a good point here. The most important Democratic reaction to look for is not really what's going to be coming out of the White House, but it's going to be what's coming from the Clinton campaign, because she's going to be most likely the future leader of this party going into the election next year. She's so closely tied to this deal. She was secretary of state. She dispatched two of her closest advisers to lead the secret talks that led to these barter negotiations. She can't remove -- she can't put a real distance between her involvement in this, but she can come out and say that the final deal has too many holes in it, that it leaves Iran with too many options. If she does say that, I think it will be very difficult for President Obama to get Democratic support on the Hill.
HUME: All I can say is when I heard a deal might be close, was uh-oh. The deficiencies that Karl described, which is by comparing what we know roughly about the shape of the deal against the original goals of the negotiation, are damaging enough. But who knows what they had to do, what additional concessions may have been made in order to get this final deal? My guess is the chances of it being a good deal are extremely remote, and it would be I think politically tempting for Hillary Clinton, as she waffled on trade, remember, because it was toxic in her base. Will she do the same on this? She may. If she does, I think the analysis here is right. It could sink the deal in Congress.
BAIER: We mentioned the general the president has tapped to be the new chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and his assessment of the biggest threat. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOE MANCHIN, D-W.VA.: What would you consider the greatest threat to our national security?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My assessment today, Senator, is that Russia presents the greatest threat to our national security.
MITT ROMNEY, FORMER GOP PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is without question our No. 1 geopolitical foe.
OBAMA: The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back, because you know, the Cold War has been over for 20 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BAIER: You know, Juan, Mitt Romney said Russia was the No. 1 geopolitical foe, now the general coming in to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, (inaudible) by President Obama, is saying basically the same thing.
WILLIAMS: He is. But I think the administration has responded -- Senator -- what you hear from Secretary of State Kerry and from President Obama is they don't agree with the general. Now, what you're hearing from the general --
BAIER: Which is a problem.
WILLIAMS: Well, I don't know if it's a big problem. The problem is this -- should you send arms to the people who -- the resistance in the Ukraine. That's the argument. And you hear from military people a suggestion that it's time to take on Putin, to make it very clear. But when you look at it from a geopolitical, more strategic, diplomatic point of view, the State Department's perspective, they are locked into trying to change things in the Middle East. And I think if you look at terrorists, people around this table are certainly concerned about ISIS. I don't think you get a big argument.
ROVE: Juan, I wouldn't call it the resistance in Ukraine. I would call it the democratically elected government of Ukraine, which is an ally of the United States, that has its territory systematically invaded by Russia. And that's a threat to our relationship with Europe and to Europe's solidarity with the United States and the international order.
Now, we can argue as to whether Russia or, as Senator Webb suggested, long-term China or ISIS and the instability in the Middle East is the most serious strategic threat, but the administration, if they are downplaying Russia, they are downplaying an actual threat.
I have been in Europe recently talking with European leaders. There's a fear of what's going on in Ukraine and elsewhere in the region, prompted by Russia.
BAIER: We'll leave it there. Up next, Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal says Greece is an example of where the U.S. could go under a President Hillary Clinton or President Bernie Sanders. The Republican presidential candidate joins us live from the campaign trail, next.
BAIER: A look outside the Beltway at Cleveland, Ohio, site of the first Republican presidential debate hosted by Fox News a little more than three weeks from now.
One of the candidates vying to be on that stage, Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, who would first have to overcome a big deficit in the polls. Governor Jindal joins us from Iowa. Governor, thank you for being here.
JINDAL: Bret, thank you for having me.
BAIER: Governor, first, I want to first start with the breaking news out of Vienna. The diplomats are suggesting that there may be a deal here that could be announced as soon as tomorrow, an Iran nuclear deal. Your reaction?
JINDAL: Look, I think a bad deal is worse than no deal. What we're hearing is that we're not going to get any time, anywhere inspections. What we're hearing is Iran will keep thousands of centrifuges. I fear this administration could start a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. Sunni countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, are likely to going to want their own nuclear capabilities. May buy that from Pakistan. This would be a threat to Israel, to Europe, to America. I hope Secretary Clinton will evolve her views as she has evolved on other issues, and come against this very bad deal. I know she's the architect of President Obama's failed foreign policy, but this has to transcend partisan politics. We're talking about an existential threat to the region, to the United States. Never mind the fact that we're not even asking Iran to recognize Israel, to cut off ties to terrorism, to release American prisoners. I'm just talking about giving up enriched uranium, giving up all their centrifuges, anytime, anywhere inspections. Those are the basic tenants of a basic deal. And it doesn't look like we're getting any of those things.
BAIER: Governor, you spend a lot of time talking about Hillary Clinton on the campaign trail. You're out with a prebuttal of her economic speech this week. You said last week if you want to peek into the future with Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders, then look at what's happening to Greece today. Seeing what's happening to Greece today, do you really believe that Hillary Clinton wants the U.S. to become Greece?
JINDAL: Bret, look, a couple of things. She'll unveil her plans tomorrow. We already know what it is going to say. It is going to be more taxes, more government spending, more regulations. It's feeding a greedier and greedier government that's going to swallow up the private sector economy. There's never enough money or power for the government, according to the left.
Give Bernie Sanders credit. At least he's willing to call himself a socialist. Hillary and President Obama are taking us down that same path, turning the American dream into the European nightmare.
You look at Greece. So they have too high taxes, too many regulations, underfunded pension systems, a slow growth in the private sector economy. That's what we have under President Obama. That's what we'd have under Secretary Clinton.
Bill Clinton said the era of big government was over. That was the most dangerous lie he told, much more dangerous than anything he ever said about Monica Lewinsky. So yes, I do worry that Secretary Clinton's policies are more of the same we've seen under President Obama. And Greece gave us democracy, and now they're showing us how to kill it. Let's not follow their path.
BAIER: Governor, you have economic problems at home. Your approval rating in Louisiana has hovered around 30 percent, stemming largely from how you handled a deficit of about $1.6 billion, a budget shortfall. And you are waiting to hear whether Louisiana will lose some of its credit rating, will be downgraded a bit. Why should anyone look at your economic record and say that's what I want for the nation?
JINDAL: Well, Bret, we actually measure prosperity on how people are doing in the real world, not the government sector. So in Louisiana, we have balanced our budget eight years in a row without raising taxes. Largest tax cut in our state's history. Income tax cut. Secondly, we have cut our state budget 26 percent, $9 billion. Cut over 30,000 fewer state government bureaucrats. We've actually had eight credit upgrades. Our highest credit rating in decades. We've got more people working than ever before in Louisiana's history, earning a higher income than ever before. We reversed 25 years of out-migration, seven years in a row of in-migration. Actually, you look at Louisiana's economy, we have got $60 billion, 90,000 jobs coming into our state because of economic development wins.
You're right, the left doesn't like what I've done because they say we've cut too much in government. Prosperity is measured in the real world, not the government world, and that's the choice we face in 2016.
BAIER: Governor, the way you've done that, you've tried to pass a plan -- you passed a plan that many looked at as a way to keep a presidential campaign promise by not raising taxes. In consultation with Grover Norquist, with the Americans for Tax Reform. The Citizens for Tax Justice explained it this way, where the revenue came from. How a governor can raise taxes without violating a no-tax pledge. "Governor Jindal has created a Rube Goldberg-like budget gimmick. Governor Jindal passed a massive increase in college fees, which he then exactly offset with the new tax credit, resulting in no actual increase in costs for students. Because college fee increases do not technically count as a tax under Grover Norquist's formula, Governor Jindal could claim that the tax credit, half of his plan, was a substantial new tax cut. Jindal could then sign an increase in the actual taxes, including cigarette taxes and other levies, without violating the pledge under the dubious claim that the tax portion of this package was revenue neutral."
Isn't that, Governor, the kind of stuff that Republicans hate about Washington?
JINDAL: Bret, a couple of things. One, I'm proud that we found a tax credit, a tax cut for working families paying tuition. Look, in a lot of states, tuition is going up. In Louisiana, we have the second lowest tuition in the South. We're one of the best states when it comes to students graduating with student debt. This is a huge problem nationally.
Secondly, I would match my record against anybody in terms of actually cutting government. We're not slowing the growth rate. We've actually cut government. Our budget is 9 billion smaller than when we took office. We're not talking about 30,000 positions. 30,000 fewer people working for state government than the day I took office. In D.C., even the Republicans talk about just slowing the growth rate of government. We've actually cut the size of government. We've actually grown the private sector economy. I know the left always wants to raise taxes. That's not the way to answer our problems. In Louisiana, we privatized our state charity hospital system. We've got statewide school choice, where the dollars follow the child instead of the child following the dollars. In New Orleans, nearly 100 percent of our kids are in charter schools. Doubling the number doing reading and math on grade level in five years. I think those are the kinds of conservative reforms -- we need a doer, not a talker. There are a lot of Republicans that talk about --
BAIER: I understand that. I (inaudible) go to the specifics, and some of it people glaze over. But when it's budget specifics and you are doing one thing and talking about one thing, just so that you can say that you didn't raise a tax, but it's a fee, isn't that stuff that Republicans hate?
JINDAL: Bret, no, there's actually a tax credit -- there's a tax cut for families whose kids are going to universities in Louisiana. That's an actual tax credit. That's a tax cut. Bottom line is, the record is clear. Our budget is smaller than when we started. We have cut taxes, not raised taxes. We have got more people working in the private sector. What we don't see happening in D.C. is look, they said give us the Republican majority and they would repeal Obamacare, balance the budget, and cut federal spending. That's not happening in D.C.
BAIER: One last thing, Governor. How do you break through? Because you're at the bottom of the polls now. How do you break through to get on that stage, for example, in Cleveland?
JINDAL: Look, I think we've got to embrace our principles, run on our conservative principles. The reality is, Jeb Bush says we have got to be willing to lose the primary in order to win the general. I disagree with that. That is the left telling us that we can't be conservatives, we've got to get the left and the media to like us. That's the establishment telling us we've got to get the left and the media to like us. That doesn't work. Why not say we're going to secure the border, repeal Obamacare, shrink the size of the government, grow the private sector economy, invest in our military, stand with Israel. Let's embrace our principles. Let's give people a real alternative to this path toward socialism, this path toward turning the American dream into the European nightmare, and let's elect a doer, not a talker. We've already got a first-term senator in the White House. Let's elect someone who has actually done things. I've done that in Louisiana. I'll do it in D.C. I'll do and say the things you're not supposed to be able to do and say.
BAIER: Governor Jindal, thanks for joining us from Iowa.
JINDAL: Thank you, Bret.
BAIER: When we come back, Donald Trump is drawing scrutiny for his comments on immigration, but also drawing large crowds on the campaign trail. We'll bring back the panel to discuss the Trump effect on the GOP next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The polls just came out and I'm tied with Jeb Bush. And I said, oh, that's too bad, how can I be tied with this guy? He's terrible. He's terrible. He's weak on immigration. You know, the sanctuary cities, did you know he had five of them in Florida while he was governor? Can you believe this? I didn't know that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BAIER: Donald Trump referencing his rise in the polls that shows him in a close race with Jeb Bush before a crowd of thousands Saturday in Phoenix. And we're back now with the panel. Brit, I talked to Jeb Bush earlier this week in New Hampshire. I asked him about Donald Trump. Take a quick listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAIER: Donald Trump, is he bad for the GOP?
JEB BUSH, GOP PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I already stated my views about Donald Trump.
BAIER: You're done?
BUSH: I'm done.
BAIER: You're through?
BUSH: I'm through. I gave my views. I just think that we need to be much more hopeful and optimistic about our ideology. We have the winning ideology. Limited government, personal responsibility, individual liberty creates more prosperity and more advantages than any other form of political philosophy. We should focus on that and not get into a food fight that only brings energy to someone who I doubt will be president and is not a constructive force for our party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BAIER: Not a constructive force for our party, Brit.
HUME: Well, I take it as that's kind of like calling him terrible, which is what Trump called him. Look, there's a segment of the Republican electorate that's been present for some time that's angrier with the mainstream GOP leadership in Congress and on the campaign trail than it is with the Democrats, at least in terms of what you hear these people saying. Donald Trump has captivated them for the moment. And he, and by doing so, he's basically eclipsed Ted Cruz, who was their previous horse.
He will have a run. But I think the chickens will come home to roost sooner or later. It will turn out people will begin to realize he hasn't long been a Republican. In fact, for many years he gave more money to Democrats, praised Hillary Clinton, told -- said that Mitt Romney was too mean on immigration for taking positions weaker than the one that he's taken now, and over time his moment will fade. It will take a while. He's got a lot of money. He will be with us a while. And he could be a third-party threat.
BAIER: That's really something. His -- it's there now. His moment is there now. He's burning hot.
PACE: He is. And we're in a phase in the campaign where name recognition goes a long way, certainly. I think the bigger problem for the rest of the Republican field right now is exactly what you saw in your interview with Jeb Bush. That they're going to continue to be asked about things that Trump says, and even people like Jeb Bush who want to try to avoid restating things they've already said, are going to have to come back again and say it one more time, and it's going to pull them off of the messages they are trying to present to voters, that in Bush's case tries to be more hopeful, more optimistic.
BAIER: Karl, isn't there something here, though, that suggests that this anti-establishment, anti-politician on both sides of the party, is striking a cord?
ROVE: Look, there are -- I would define them slightly differently than Brit, but I think he's got the -- people are angry about the condition of the country and angry that Republicans haven't been able to stop Obama dead. And it's -- they are there. He appeals to that. But he -- right now he's getting the shoppers. Take a look at where he's coming in the polls. He's taking it from Ted Cruz, from Mike Huckabee. Everybody has had their moment, and they've had their moment by getting these people who are shopping around. And are they ultimately going to settle on him? I doubt it. Fox News poll says that of all Americans, 30 percent think he's honest and trustworthy, and 44 percent do not. By comparison, Hillary Clinton is at 45-52. In a Fox poll, 64 percent of Republicans, 69 percent of conservatives and 55 percent of Tea Partiers said that he was a side show, not a serious candidate. He has got a lot to do to overcome that. I doubt that he does. But he does represent a threat for a third party. You'll notice how artfully his people are saying it now. Every one of them (inaudible). What third party? Why would we? We're winning. Which is different than no, we would never go third party. So there is a threat to the Republicans from this. No doubt about it.
BAIER: He's answered the question straight on, saying he would consider it.
WILLIAMS: Yes, which is, you know, Ross Perot all over again, who got I believe 19 or 20 percent of the vote back when.
The thing about Trump is, look, this is a big field. So everything Karl said I just want to underline. You know, like 60 percent of Republicans say they don't trust this guy and wouldn't have anything to do with him. But we have got a big field. You only need so much. He has got name I.D., he's got money, and he's to the right of everybody else, which is why he's taking away from Cruz.
HUME: On what? On immigration?
WILLIAMS: No, no, no, taking away from Cruz in terms of support.
HUME: I thought you said he's to the right of everybody, on what?
WILLIAMS: He's to the right of everybody, but specifically on immigration at the moment. But my point is, guess what? If in this larger field, we go down to super Tuesday next year, Brit, this guy could still be around.
ROVE: He's going to hurt the people that he's hurting now if he stays in the race. He'll keep hurting them, which means that the Ted Cruz and the Mike Huckabees and to a lesser extents, the Ben Carsons and Marco Rubio, to a lesser extent, they are not going to be able to get liftoff, and it's going to end up being him versus a couple of others who do get liftoff.
WILLIAMS: So interesting to me that he hangs around like this at a time when Jeb Bush is raising money, you would know a lot about this, out of the roof, at historic levels.
ROVE: -- right here at the beginning. We got seven months until the primary. We have got plenty of time.
HUME: It's a good idea to remember what happened in 2012, when the mantle of front runner passed on an almost weekly basis from one candidate to another. Newt Gingrich had two moments in the spotlight. Herman Cain shot up to No. 1.
PACE: Michele Bachmann.
HUME: Rick Perry when he first entered the race shot up to No. 1. This is a stage when sentiment is soft. People are fickle. And Donald Trump is having his moment. Whether he's a staying power is to be doubted.
BAIER: Last word, Julie, getting on that stage in Cleveland, pretty important.
PACE: It's a huge deal to be on that debate stage, where I think it will be most interesting to watch. Donald Trump can take a shot at opponents, but he does not take shots at him very well. Watch how he reacts in that kind of situation.
BAIER: Panel, thank you. I bet it's not the last time we talk about that. That's it today. I'll see you tomorrow for "Special Report" on Fox News Channel, 6:00 p.m. Eastern, 3:00 Pacific. And you can catch more of our contender series profile of Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush on Tuesday. Have a great week. Chris will be back next week, and we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."
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