This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," June 25, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, major controversy erupting between one of America's biggest broadcasters and a Republican presidential candidate who one TV network executive just compared to a racist killer.
Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Just 24 hours ago the nation's largest Spanish TV network, Univision along with The Washington Post announced plans to sponsor a republican presidential candidates forum in March.
Tonight, that may be in question. Amid reports that Univision's president of Programming and Content posted and then deleted this. An image on Instagram associating Donald Trump with the masked murderer who killed nine people in Charleston last week. It comes as Univision announces it is dropping a TV deal to carry the Miss Universe program which Trump produces because it objects to remarks Mr. Trump made when he declared his run for president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume are good people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Marc Thiessen and Howie Kurtz are here on the politics and the media here.
But first, Mr. Trump weighs in on being compared to an accused mass murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Mr. Trump, thank you for being here tonight. Your reaction now to the fact that this -- the president of programming and content at Univision sent out a picture on his Instagram account comparing you to a mass murder.
TRUMP: Well, I think it's disgraceful. I think he should be ashamed of himself. He immediately deleted it and the lawyers are going to have a field day. And as you know, they broke a contract. We have a binding five-year contract where they pay a lot of money. And they broke it and they're not allowed to do that. They have no right to break it. And frankly Mexico though, there are people, there are leaders that are much smarter than our leaders. They're taking advantage of the United States both at the border and on trade. And the reason that Univision in my opinion broke the contract, because a tremendous amount of pressure was put on frankly by Mexico and by the leaders of Mexico put on Univision because they didn't like what I was saying about trade.
KELLY: They say, they went on the record and actually said specifically that it was the comments you made based on your recent quote, this is a quote, "insulting remarks about Mexican immigrants." That's why they said they canceled the Miss Universe contract.
TRUMP: Frankly tremendously bad people are coming in. All you have to do is speak to the border patrol. They'll tell you. We have horrible - - we have some terrible people coming in not only from Mexico. They're flowing through Mexico through the border but they're coming from all over. And they are killers and they are people that we don't want in this country in many cases. So, I speak my mind. I make speeches about it. I get the biggest crowds. I get the biggest standing ovations. Everybody knows what I'm saying is true. And by the way, the Mexican government knows obviously they're going to try and send lots of bad ones. Certainly some wonderful people come through. They should do it in a legal fashion. But some wonderful people come through.
KELLY: Let me ask you about Univision specifically. Because I understand you're depending your remarks. But what do you make of this television company. Now its president of content suggesting you're just like a mass murder, then their lead news anchor, news anchor, Jorge Ramos sent out the New York Daily news cover that puts you in a clown face with favor. So he favors this. This is their news anchor, this is likely to be the person who will participate in the hosting of this presidential forum. My question to you is, will you attend if they in fact are allowed to host this?
TRUMP: Well, I don't think they should be allowed. It's a total conflict. And by the way, they're also big supporters of Hillary Clinton. If you look at the people from Univision they're big supporters of Hillary Clinton. You know that.
KELLY: Would you go? Would you sit there at Univision for a forum after this?
TRUMP: Well, based on the polls I easily qualify, that I can tell you. And I guess I would probably go because I would just have to go and defend myself. They may be much tougher on me than anybody else because certainly the people that I am running against are not -- Jeb Bush does not speak this way, that I can tell you. If Jeb Bush was in my position, he would have folded. He wouldn't have done -- which I could have done very easily. All I have to do is be silent and Mexico would continue to rip us off for many years to come. But that's not what our country needs to be great again.
KELLY: Donald Trump. Always great to hear from you. Thank you for being here.
TRUMP: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: And joining me now with more. Marc Thiessen, fox news contributor, former chief presidential speechwriter for George W. Bush and Howie Kurtz, host of Fox News' "MediaBuzz." Welcome to you both.
MARC THIESSEN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Megyn.
KELLY: Marc, inappropriate?
THIESSEN: Oh my gosh, completely inappropriate. And look, I don't associate myself at all with what Donald Trump said about Mexicans. But to compare him to -- for the executive, a senior executive of this network, to compare him to a mass murderer, I mean, this guy, as you pointed out, is the president for Content and Programming at this network. The guy is responsible for the content at Univision think it's appropriate to send out a tweet, an Instagram photo comparing a republican presidential candidate to a white supremacist who just massacred nine people. What does that say about the culture at Univision?
THIESSEN: What does that say about the biases in that newsroom that the person who is responsible for their content think this is something that's appropriate to do.
KELLY: And are we likely to see the rest of the media rise up Howie and say, inappropriate. I mean, can you imagine? Can you imagine what would happen if a senior executive at the FOX News Channel sent out a picture like that with Hillary Clinton on the other side? Do you think any news organization would stand for FOX News hosting a presidential forum or debate?
HOWARD KURTZ, HOST, "MEDIABUZZ": No. But I hope that the media will rise up and say, that was so beyond the pale that it is just reprehensible. But look, if the folks at Univision wants to rip Donald Trump's comments on Mexican immigrants as being over the top and offensive. That's fair game. For the network to unilaterally break a contract to carry his beauty pageant because it doesn't like what he said, that's political retribution. We're talking about the culture there. Jorge Ramos, the chief anchor openly crusades for immigration reform. And therefore, this is a network that thing doesn't like. A lot of the republican candidates clearly punching back at Donald Trump. I can't imagine that they would now be allowed to host this republican presidential debate.
KELLY: And yet this is what we're going to see, this is not the first attack. I mean, pretty vicious one really compared to a mass murderer. We've seen a republican presidential candidate in the race, I mean, it's still June. It's still June, Marc.
THIESSEN: Yes. No. It's very early. And look, there's a clear bias against Republicans in the media. But Univision isn't just the media. It's basically a Hispanic MSNBC. It is a far left network. I mean, the Media Research Center did a review of their coverage and they found that they've lean very far left in their news coverage. They're three times likely to quote the liberals that they are conservatives. And as Donald Trump pointed out, the owner of their network has said that it's his dream to see Hillary Clinton in the White House. So, why would Republicans go to a debate hosted by a network that has liberal bias, whose president says that the republican -- one of the republican candidates is comparable to a mass murderer and whose owner wants Hillary Clinton in the White House.
KELLY: And the likely moderator of that forum, it's not a debate but it's a forum, but likely moderator --
KELLY: -- apparently believes that Donald Trump is a clown. I mean, has come right out and said, the one other candidate is a clown. And yet Mr. Trump is ready to participate in that. He says, he's just going to have to try harder.
Howie in the past couple of weeks we saw the Ted Cruz with the gun to the head from the AP. Oh, it was an accident. The Marco Rubio thing, oh, he had some traffic tickets and he had a luxury boat. I mean, already it starts.
KURTZ: Well, I don't want to paint everyone with the same broad brush. And I think that some scrutiny of these republican presidential candidates is mandatory. But the AP shot itself in the foot by running that picture of Ted Cruz with the gun behind him on the billboard pointed at his head. I don't know how any editor was willing to carry that. And "The New York Times," the piece was beyond absurd making an issue of the four traffic tickets over 17 years on the park of Marco Rubio. So, when these things happen. And now you have Univision and Donald Trump, and spat over Miss Universe pageant, it does reinforced the notion for those who believe the media are not fair to Republicans.
KELLY: You think?
KURTZ: Yes. Well, here's yet another example.
KELLY: Look at this one, he's just like a mass murderer. Come on! Whatever you think of Donald Trump and what he said, for the president of Content at a network that's hosting a republican presidential forum, inappropriate. There's in way around it. Guys, thank you.
THIESSEN: Thanks, Megyn.
KURTZ: My pleasure.
We have got breaking news right now on Hillary Clinton and evidence that she did not turn over all of her e-mails that she sent from her private server on the subject of Benghazi despite her explicit claims that she had done so.
Congressman Jason Chaffetz is here. This news is just breaking. We'll bring it to you.
Plus, there are new revelations tonight from the autopsy report on the death of Freddie Gray. And up next, we will speak with one of the few people who have actually seen it. We've gotten additional details and wait until you hear what the family attorney for Freddie Gray says.
Also, what does it really mean for America now that the Supreme Court has saved ObamaCare for a second time? Believe it or not, both Dr. Charles Krauthammer and Dr. Ben Carson are here with answers.
And then, we are learning more about the second prison guard charged with helping two convicted killers escape a New York prison. Brian Kilmeade is here with that. Just ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENE PALMER, CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY PRISON GUARD: With the money that they pay you, you'll go bald, you'll have high blood pressure, you'll become alcoholic, you'll divorce and then you'll kill yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Breaking tonight, the fight over a leaked autopsy report in the death of Freddie Gray in Baltimore has now turned white hot. News reports say the autopsy shows how Freddie died of a, quote, "single high energy impact injury," like you get from diving in a shallow pool. Since the leaks, legal and medical experts have fought over where the details help the accused cops or do not.
Plus, the prosecutor and the defense attorneys have now waged a public war over who leaked this thing and why.
Joining me tonight with the breaking news, Gray family attorney, Judge Billy Murphy, he's one of the few people who we can confirm has actually seen at least excerpts from this thing. Billy, thank you for being here.
JUDGE WILLIAM "BILLY" MURPHY, GRAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: My pleasure, Megyn.
KELLY: So, you've seen not the whole autopsy report but what from it?
MURPHY: Well, I've seen the written report. And the written report is supposed to have, in order to be complete, lots of other things. The photographs of the body, the medical records, the witness statements, for example, what the cops said and what eyewitnesses have said. The videos upon which the report bases its -- or partially bases its conclusion.
KELLY: Okay. So, you've seen the conclusions but not sort of the supporting evidence that would back it up?
MURPHY: That's correct.
KELLY: So, who gave it to you?
MURPHY: Well, I'm entitled to get it because I represent the family.
KELLY: So, you get it from the DA?
KELLY: Okay. Do you have any idea who leaked it to the "Baltimore Sun"?
MURPHY: I have a suspicion. And if you go through the list of possibilities, we didn't do it. The prosecutor didn't do it. So that leaves the defense lawyers, who I think are honorable enough not to have done it and then there are the police, who I don't think have been behaved with honor in this whole thing.
KELLY: The defense lawyers say, they don't have it and they seem ticked off that others have it, that you had it and the Baltimore Sun has it and they don't have it. I mean is that strange that you would have it as, you know, the family of Freddie Gray, you represent him. But they represent the cops charged and they didn't get it.
MURPHY: No, there's a statute that gives us the right to have it. And the state's attorney can hold it back for good cause and then release it at a certain point. And that's how we got it. But we didn't get the whole thing because they don't have to give us the whole thing yet.
KELLY: Here's my one question for you on the conclusion here. Some lawyers came out today and said, this autopsy report may support something but it doesn't support second degree murder charges. It shows a man who was flailing in the back of this van, it shows a cop who stopped a couple of times and at the earliest saw an injured person between the third and the fourth stops. And that, they argue, does not amount to murder. At most it amounts to noncompliance with police procedure.
MURPHY: You're telling me that the defense said that today?
KELLY: No. No. No. Just analysts and also some forensic pathologists have weighed and say that they don't think this helps the prosecution.
MURPHY: I think it's irresponsible to comment on an incomplete report. And that's why we've avoided any such comment. And until you see the entire report, you can be -- you can be wrong because you have a single missing fact.
MURPHY: And there is much to learn that is not yet available. So I don't think speculation is intelligent at this point. And it could also prejudice the administration of justice.
MURPHY: So, those of us who are interested in justice should be restraining ourselves about interpreting the evidence at this point. We don't have a clue about how much evidence the prosecutor has.
KELLY: Got it. Now we are hours away -- we are hours away now from finding out because tomorrow is the deadline for her to reveal it. Judge, thank you for being here. We appreciate it.
MURPHY: Thank you, Megyn.
KELLY: Joining me for now for more, Arthur Aidala who is a FOX News legal analyst and president of the Brooklyn Bar Association. So fancy. And Mark Eiglarsh, he's a former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney.
Here's the thing. This lays out that Freddie Gray was flailing around in the back of that van. That the officer stopped, checked on him, that Alicia White, she didn't show up until the fourth stop. Okay. So, this is only one stop away from the end of the journey. They are charging this woman with causing his death, with causing his death. How do they get there? You tell me, Arthur, whether they've overcharged.
ARTHUR AIDALA, FOX NEWS LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, they've definitely overcharged. And I would like to compliment Judge Murphy. Because he did a great job. And clearly a real professional. But Megyn, I have to be honest with you, I kind of felt like he was playing the role of the defense attorney. Those are the things I say when the evidence is not too good against my client.
KELLY: You know, we'll remember that in the future.
AIDALA: But let's not speculate. Let's show restraint before we rush to judgment. Those are things that usually a defense attorney says when the evidence is overwhelming against them. Here I agree with them. I think the cops probably did released that report. You know why, Megyn? It helps them. They've been under siege for so long, it's like, hey, look, we finally got the paperwork, we didn't kill anybody.
KELLY: They say they don't have it. Their defense attorney say, we don't have it, we didn't released it.
AIDALA: I'm talking about the police, the police who probably were able through their contacts to get their hands on it. They're finally standing up for themselves saying, we didn't do anything wrong.
KELLY: Here's what it shows, Mark, that this guy was under the influence of narcotics, that he was misbelieving in the back of that police van, that they had to stop and put the additional shackles on him. That they placed him down on his belly. The medical examiner concludes that if he stayed down on his belly, he would not have suffered a life-threatening injury but instead he got himself up and that is what caused him to fall and hurt himself. And that the person who put him in the van should have per seen that he was going to get himself up in this tiny space and that they would stop short, and that he would get hurt to the point of dying.
And that when the van stopped after the fourth time, Sergeant Alicia White when she showed up to help her partner on the case subdue this man, should have noticed immediately that he was not only hurt but hurt so badly that death was around the corner and because she didn't, she's guilty, and he's guilty, him of second degree murder and her of manslaughter. Really?
MARK EIGLARSH, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Quite a stretch. Yes. No question I think that this case is overcharged. But that being said, Judge Murphy does make some very good points. We do not have all of the evidence at all. But even in the light most favorable to the prosecution, we've never heard that the driver intentionally slammed on his brakes at all. The problem, however, Megyn, and anyone, no matter what side you're on, I still haven't heard anyone answer this question. Why didn't they buckle him in in violation of their policy?
KELLY: Well, you tell me. You tell me because the autopsy report details the yelling and banging causing the van to rock that was going on by Freddie Gray and these cops are likely to argue that they weren't going to lean over a disruptive prisoner to put a belt on because we've already heard from other Baltimore cops that that can lead to biting and other bad situations for the police.
AIDALA: Well, Megyn, you also told us this past Tuesday night that it wasn't even a policy until a few days before. And my understanding is it was a policy that was buried --
EIGLARSH: It's still a policy, Arthur.
AIDALA: No, it wasn't. I think within two weeks before. It came down in the -- when someone is in the back they must be buckled in.
EIGLARSH: For this very reason, Arthur.
AIDALA: But it's not murder. It's not murder.
KELLY: Yes. But there's no proof that it was communicated to these particular officers. There was no proof whatsoever that it was communicated to them.
AIDALA: It's still not murder.
KELLY: All right. I have to leave it here. Good to see you both.
EIGLARSH: It's going to be tuff to argue that side though that they didn't know.
KELLY: Okay, I got to go. Well, we also have new details tonight on how two convicted killers may have escaped from a New York prison as we learn more about the second guard charged with aiding in their escape.
Wait until you hear more about this guy. Brian Kilmeade is here with that.
Plus, a bombshell today in the investigation into the IRS targeting of conservative groups. Right after this break. How that agency is now accused of destroying evidence that was under subpoena.
And also our breaking news tonight on whether Hillary Clinton was lying when she said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I responded right away and provided all of my e-mails that could possibly be work related, which totaled roughly 55,000 printed pages, even though I knew that the State Department already had the vast majority of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JASON CHAFFETZ, R-UTAH, HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Are you or are you not going to provide this committee the e-mails as indicated in this subpoena? Yes or no?
JOHN KOSKINEN, IRS COMMISSIONER: We have never said we --
CHAFFETZ: I'm asking you. Yes or no?
KOSKINEN: We are going to respond to the subpoena.
KOSKINEN: Yes. We are going to respond to the subpoena.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Well, that was IRS Commissioner John Koskinen testifying before the House Oversight Committee in March of last year telling Congressman Jason Chaffetz that the IRS have located a number of the Lois Lerner e-mails about the targeting of conservative groups and would provide them to Congress. Just today we learned that three weeks before Koskinen made that claim to Congress, someone at the IRS had destroyed tens of thousands of those very e-mails despite an explicit order to preserve all of them. And a subpoena to hold on to and then produce them.
Joining us now, Congressman Jason Chaffetz who is now chairman of the House Oversight Committee. Good to see you tonight, Mr. Chairman. And so, do you believe he was lying or he just didn't know what was going on in his organization when he told you that?
CHAFFETZ: According to what we heard in the testimony today from the inspector general, an independent group, what he said was false. It was not true. Remember, it was Super Bowl Sunday in 2014 when the President said, there's not even a smidgen, not even a smidgen of evidence that there's anything nefarious going on here. Not even a smidgen. That same day the IRS documents supposedly internally that they might be missing e- mails. But it was 30 days after that they actually destroyed this evidence and then he came 22 days later to Congress and in my questioning, he testified that they would provide us all of the e-mails. But they had just destroyed them.
KELLY: Uh-mm. And the deputy inspector -- the inspector general is the one who told you about this. They watch over the IRS. And the deputy inspector general came out and said, this is an unbelievable set of circumstances. How do they explain? An innocent mistake? Some guy with a magnet sat up against the tapes? What are they saying?
CHAFFETZ: It happened the same day. They said they were missing e- mails the same day that the President said that there were, you know, there was even a smidgen of evidence.
KELLY: Your point is that's because they were destroying the evidence back at the IRS headquarters at the moment.
CHAFFETZ: Well, literally was 30 days later that that evidence, despite a subpoena, despite an order to preserve that evidence that had been issued seven months prior. They destroyed that evidence.
KELLY: But the inspector general came out today and said that there was no direct evidence that the tapes were destroyed to hide information from Congress.
CHAFFETZ: They cannot definitively prove that somebody made the order to destroy that evidence as a conscious effort to avoid the subpoena. But the reality is, the fact pattern is such that they did destroy the evidence, there was a subpoena in place.
KELLY: And we have breaking news tonight on Hillary Clinton that I want to get to with you before you go. And that is her pal Sidney Blumenthal who was advising her on Benghazi who was not accepted to be one of her staffers by the Obama administration but she used them on the sly anyway, was sending her e-mails, was giving her intelligence that was not vetted and so on. He got subpoenaed. He had to go speak to the Benghazi select committee and he had to produce documents. Well, it turns out Sidney Blumenthal produced documents that Hillary did not produce. Even though she made this claim about her e-mails from her private server. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I responded right away and provided all of my e-mails that could possibly be work related, which totaled roughly 55,000 printed pages, even though I knew that this State Department already had the vast majority of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: And now it appears that is not true. And the question is, are there more e-mails and how are you and Congress to get to the bottom of it?
CHAFFETZ: Well, Trey Gowdy is leading the Select Committee. He is doing a wonderful job with this. And what he has simply asked is, what percentage of the truth do you want to hear. And if you want to hear 100 percent of the truth, then you need 100 percent of the documents. And Secretary Clinton had said publicly, you just ran it, that she provided all of the e-mails but evidently that's not true. Because just tonight, the State Department said that's not true.
KELLY: What do you do when you find out it's not true and you can't get to the server?
CHAFFETZ: Well, again, that's where Trey Gowdy and the Select Committee had called on somebody independent, like the inspector general to come in and look at that computer. Basically, Secretary Clinton negotiated with herself to figure out what she was going to provide and what she wasn't going to provide, despite what the law is, despite what she is required to do under the law and this continues to play out. But Trey Gowdy is on top of it. I have no doubt that he'll get to the bottom of it.
KELLY: She's still claiming even tonight that she did turn over all e-mails that she had from Blumenthal, that she had from Blumenthal, and yet that is not what her pal Sidney is showing. Great of you to be here. Thanks for being here tonight.
CHAFFETZ: Thanks, Megyn.
KELLY: What does it really mean for America now that the Supreme Court has saved ObamaCare for a second time? Both Dr. Charles Krauthammer and Dr. Ben Carson are here next, with answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN GRUBER, FORMER OBAMA ADMIN HEALTH CARE CONSULTANT: Black transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, you know, call for stupidity of the American voter or whatever. But basically, that was really, really critical to get anything to pass.
It is a very clever -- you know, basic exploitation of the lack of economic understanding of the American voter.
The American voters are too stupid to understand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: He's a charmer. That was MIT Professor Jonathan Gruber, a man hailed as a hero by the president's healthcare team, sharing his unguarded assessment about how they managed to pass the sweeping law that now affects one-fifth of our economy and only went through because Harry Reid changed the Senate rules to get the vote he wanted. Today, the six to three decision, the high court saved that law for a second time, striking down a challenge over subsidies by acknowledging that Obamacare was inartfully drafted, but concluding that it would afford the most generous interpretation. Otherwise the insurance market would be destabilized.
In moments, our exclusive interview with the 2016 Republican presidential candidate, Dr. Ben Carson. But first, Dr. Charles Krauthammer, the author of Things That Matter, now out in paperback.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Charles, so Gruber has the last laugh.
CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: And Obama has the last laugh, and Harry Reid has the last laugh. Nancy Pelosi has the last laugh. And in a sense, John Roberts does. What John Roberts sensely (ph) has done in these two decisions is to say don't come to me again about the Affordable Care Act. I'm not going to overturn it. And I think Scalia in that really bitter dissent was absolutely right in saying that Roberts was working backwards. His objective was to find some way, any way to uphold the law. And even if it meant contradicting the plain language of the law, you only get a subsidy if you buy your insurance through an exchange, and I think the law explained it as not ambiguous. And if it meant -- and if meant, reinterpreting -- misinterpreting and deliberately giving a new meaning to that, so be it. And to me, that's the damage here. What it does is to the sanctity of the rule of law rather than men. If you cannot rely on the plain language of a statute and you have to rely on the tortured interpretation that a justice gives it in order to keep the law alive then what can you rely on?
KELLY: Chief Justice Roberts concluded yes, we have to read the plain language. But we can strew statutes, not isolated provisions and he felt the law read allowed even a state that didn't set up an exchange to receive a federal subsidy. Do you think this undermines in any way the validity of the court in the minds of some Americans or the respect they'll have for it?
KRAUTHAMMER: Well, I think the irony is that Roberts thinks -- and I think this handed (ph) the two decisions on ObamaCare that he was sort of defending the reputation of the court, because that is the theory that I think he's operating under. He believes that after the Bush v. Gore decision in 2000, the court was seen as partisan. It was seen as not being even handed and that his job as the Chief Justice -- and I actually suspect if he was just a justice and not chief justice, he might have gone another way. But he sees his job as the custodian of the reputation of the court, not to overturn something as sweeping, important, debated for 18 months in the Congress as ObamaCare.
KELLY: Do you think as some would argue today that the GOP dodged a bullet here?
KRAUTHAMMER: Well, he did do a political favor to the GOP because they weren't quite ready and I've been yelling about this for a couple of years. They have to be ready with a substitute and had the court ruled the Republican way, had they overturned the subsidies, ObamaCare would have economically collapsed and they had to have been ready to do something to maintain the subsidies for the six million Americans who now get them and something to put in place of ObamaCare. Well, right now, that's been postponed until if and when they win the presidency in 2017.
KELLY: Charles, Great to see you.
KRAUTHAMMER: My pleasure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Joining me now to react, Dr. Ben Carson, a 2016 Republican presidential candidate and author of One Nation. Good to see you tonight, sir. And your reaction to the Supreme Court's decision today?
BEN CARSON, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I wasn't surprised that four liberal judges went the way they did. But I was a little surprised that Roberts and Kennedy didn't look at the effect that this law has had on the country, the deleterious effects. And make a different decision. You know, the reason that I have been so (inaudible) against this act is because it violates the whole tenor of America. America was supposed to be a place that was of for and by the people and the government is supposed to be there to facilitate -- you know, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And what this does, the government comes along and says I don't care what you people think, it really doesn't matter. This is what we're doing and if you don't like it, too bad. And you know, at some point, I was hoping that maybe our Supreme Court would recognize that, you know, this is America and this is the way we do things. Not in a dictatorial style.
KELLY: And now what happens? Because, you know, this law was rammed through my Harry Reid. The only reason Scott Brown was elected to the U.S. Senate was because she was going to be the vote to stop ObamaCare and he won. But then, Harry Reid changed the rules, he stuck it through. It was challenged twice, twice the U.S. Supreme Court upheld it and now, the president says today, it's now woven into the fabric of American society and it will not be undone.
CARSON: Well, he's certainly welcome to say that. But, you know, I, and I think probably a lot of other people, are going to continue to look for a better way. The fact of the matter is there are some excellent alternatives. We have to settle on which is the best one. It has to be very clear and plain to the American people, so that they actually want it. They recognize that it's going to be so much better and should not be something that they have to be forced into. And we're going to be talking a lot more about that. It's going to be an issue in 2016. And hopefully, Congress will work with the Republican candidate who is running in 2016 to come up with something very solid.
KELLY: Last question, need a question answer. Do you think this improves the chances of a Republican to win the White House in 2016?
CARSON: Yes, I actually do. The crowds that I've been seeing are very, very much against this. And this is America, again. And I think the majority of people actually are against this.
KELLY: Dr. Carson, thanks for being here.
CARSON: My pleasure. Thank you.
KELLY: Well, we have new details in the deadly crash killing a beloved Oklahoma sports caster as we learn the suspect was sent back to Mexico three times before his actions took the life of another man.
Brian Kilmeade will be on that.
And the New York manhunt and the update on the guard.
Plus, is the General Lee car offensive? One of the stars of the Dukes of Hazard is here to talk about how far folks have gone in the campaign to purge the confederate flag from -- well, everything.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA SIMPSON, SINGER: Are you ready, boots?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Developing tonight, a new fallout in the growing backlash over the confederate flag. In the week since the Charleston Church shooter was seen posing with the symbol, stores have stopped selling it, states have ordered it taken down, and now, more things are coming under fire like the movie, Gone with the Wind. Trace Gallagher live in our West Coast Newsroom with the story. Trace.
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, this debate is no longer just about flying the confederate battle flag. Now apparently, it is inappropriate to sell it, to print it, or in some cases, to show it at al. Sears, K-Mart, Google, Amazon and EBay have now joined Wal-Mart in refusing to sell confederate flag merchandise, with Wal-Mart saying, "At times, items make their way into our assortment improperly. This is one of those instances." The statement failed to mention it's been selling confederate merchandise for quite some time. The feds are also getting out of the confederate flag business pulling all related items from National Parks Service gift shops and Warner Brothers now says it will no longer produce replicas of the General Lee -- you know, the iconic car on the Dukes of Hazard that bore the confederate flag. Warner Brothers also owns Gone with the Wind and now, a movie critic says from our cousin publication, the New York Post, says the movie which prominently displays the confederate flag is a "racist artifact," and Warner Brothers should relegate it to a museum. Apple is also removing apps and video games that use the confederate flag in a "mean spirited way," though Gone with the Wind is still available on iTunes. And while some online retailers are cracking down on confederate merchandise, Nazi merchandise we should know is still readily available. Megyn
KELLY: Trace, good to see you. Well, one of the stars of the Dukes of Hazard is speaking out in support of the confederate flag and he's getting a lot of flack for it.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Cooter, what do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, y'all ain't no doubt about it. You got big trouble here. How long has he been crawling like this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it started yesterday when he tried to push him over 150. It stalled right out at 125.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you got here is a sad sick car with a dried out busted bearing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Joining me now, Ben Jones, better known as Cooter from the Dukes of Hazard. And he was also a Democratic Congressman. Ben, thank you for being here. And so, I know you have a chain of stores. You guys sell the confederate flag and you say I'm not stopping. Why?
BEN JONES, "DUKES OF HAZARD" STAR: I'm not stopping because 70 million Americans are descended from the confederacy. And they are our people, our flesh and blood. I was also associated with that show which 30 million people watched every week, including a whole lot of black folks who still love it, who enjoy it, and understand that flag and that positive context. I think the 70 million descendants who still respect or ancestors for what they did in the context of their times and with the great progress that we've made in the south, black and white working together -- I was deeply involved in the civil rights movement and with the 30 million now, hundreds of millions of people who love and enjoy the Dukes of Hazard every day all over the world outweighs that handful of pin-headed bigoted racists who have created so much trouble in this country. And I am deeply concerned that the tsunami of cultural cleansing that is piling on, that is almost hysteria, is going to really damage the tremendous progress that we've made with racial relations in the South.
KELLY: How do you get to the point of calling those offended by the flag racists and bigoted?
JONES: No, no, I'm not calling them that at all. I hope I didn't say that. No. The people who are causing all of the trouble are not black folks. They're those so-called white supremacists like this fool, this evil human being.
KELLY: You feel they co-opted a flag that to you means what? What does it mean to you?
JONES: It means a lot of things. Certainly, you know, a million men including in my entire male family from that period, fought for the South. They were some of the most valorous men who ever took up arms. In their time, in their context, they believed they were fighting for their nation. It was -- slavery existed in this country since 1619. It existed under the American flag from 1776 until 1865. It is not -- was not the southern sin, it was the national sin. Edward Baptist's book, The Half Has Never Been Told, and the subtitle is How Slavery Built the American Capitalism.
KELLY: I got it.
JONES: Wall Street was created by the slave trade. The profits went north, the cotton went north. And yet, the scapegoat is my grandfather's flag, which has been shown in a number of contexts almost all of them positive. We despise.
KELLY: I got it.
JONES: These evil -- I almost said bastards, who desecrate our flag with their hateful rituals.
KELLY: Good to see you.
JONES: Thank you. Thank you for having me on.
KELLY: Thank you for your thoughts. We appreciate it.
JONES: Yes, ma'am. Thank you, Megyn.
KELLY: Well, there is a wild new report out tonight about these two escaped inmates in New York and the woman accused of helping them, too. Not him, Brian -- no, he didn't. But he is next.
KELLY: Breaking tonight, new details on the second guard who allegedly helped those two prisoners in New York escape. Richard Matt and David Sweat have been on the lam for nearly three weeks. Reports now say Guard Gene Palmer allegedly traded contraband to the inmates for money? No. For paintings created by Richard Matt. He must have been quite an artist. Gene went On The Record back in 2000 to talk about how much he loved life as a correctional officer. Listen.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the money they pay you, you'll go bald, you'll have high blood pressure, you'll become an alcoholic, you'll divorce, and then you'll kill yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN KILMEADE, CO-HOST, "FOX & FRIENDS": Fantastic.
KELLY: Wow, who could have predicted he would go south with the inmates?
KILMEADE: Who would think that he would allow meat to get into the prison to this double murderer? In that meat, we understand, Megyn, were the tools to cut himself out of the prison.
KELLY: You're not up-to-date on the latest. The latest is the lady got him the meat. This guy got him screwdrivers and pliers. That's totally different.
KELLY: What can a prisoner do with that?
KILMEADE: You need that and MacGyver and you get yourself out.
KILMEADE: I believe that this is going to be more than this guy though.
KELLY: No only that, but they also apparently provided him access to the catwalk behind the electrical box in their cell. What could go wrong?
KILMEADE: I have no idea. He was able to give him a tour, he said yeah, I shouldn't have done that. Sorry. I did let him out. So he says he passed a lie detector test, according to his lawyer, but he is.
KELLY: It's not the lies that are going to condemn him. It's the truth of what he did.
KILMEADE: It's the truth will do him in. How much did he know? Why would he risk everything for two people that were having sex with a prison guard that he knew? What was in it for him besides the paintings?
KELLY: What was in the painting? It turns out Joyce is busier than we knew.
KELLY: The number of interludes.
KILMEADE: We did the math. It was four times a week for eight months in a closet overlooking the manhole where they escaped for.
KELLY: OK. Let's move on to something else.
KILMEADE: Thank you.
KELLY: Bad, bad news. This illegal immigrant made an illegal U-turn killed a beloved sportscaster in Oklahoma. Now, it turns out -- how many times was he thrown out of our country before?
KILMEADE: He was thrown out three times. You know, voluntarily. He said I got to get out, you will get out. It turns out this guy is back in the country obviously. He is drunk. He had drugs on him. He was riding right by Bob Barry Jr., who is a legendary sportscaster, KFOR. Then he cut across him. He on impact died immediately. He dies there. (Inaudible) U- turn, they arrest him, detained him. Obviously, he didn't belong here. This guy's life is ruined. His father's (inaudible) destroyed over the weekend. Memorial service this Saturday.
KELLY: And now, there's a DHS hold on him. Now, there is. Brian, good to see you.
KILMEADE: Good to see you, Megyn.
KELLY: More news tonight. We'll be right back.
KELLY: Well, apparently, we made a terrible mistake in the "Dukes of Hazard" segment. We showed Jessica Simpson instead of the real Daisy Duke Catherine Bach. So, to the world and especially to our crew and studio, I'm sorry. See you tomorrow night at 9.
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