This is a rush transcript from "The Five," June 22, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Jessie Watters, Melissa Francis and Tom Shillue. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."
There's been a lot of political debate swirling over the Confederate flag and gun control in the wake of the tragedy in South Carolina that left nine dead. We'll get to that in just a minute. But first, just four days after that devastating shooting, the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church opened its doors yesterday. Here's Reverend Norvell Goff, who lead the first prayer services since the senseless killing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. NORVELL GOFF, INTERIM PASTOR EMANUEL AME: It has been tough. It's been rough. We've -- some of us have been downright angry, but through it all God has sustained us. We have shown the world how we as a group of people can come together and pray and workout things that needs to be worked out. A lot of folks expected us to do something strange and to breakout in a riot. Well, they just don't know us. The door of Mother Emanuel is open on this Sunday. It sends a message to every demon in hell and on earth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: More than a thousand people attended the service and many more paid their respect at vigils, honoring the victims and their families, even through all the pain and tears. Senator Tim Scott, so the tragedy has actually brought the community closer together.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM SCOTT, SOUTH CAROLINA SENATOR: There's no doubt when you're mind and your heart are consumed with the hatred and with racist motivations that he sought to create a race war according to -- I believe his own words in this country. What he has done for South Carolina, what he has done for Charleston is he has brought our community together. The entire state now is without any question, taking a leap forward. What the enemy meant for evil, I believe God will bring good out of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Kind words, intelligent words coming from himself, what do you think of the situation?
JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Man, I tell you, you know, God is good. Faith is amazing because I think what the Reverend Goff said was just right on targeted and I think Tim Scott picked up on this. The intent here was race riots, there's a race war. That's what the intent was and instead, what we see is people marching across that bridge. We've seen the neighboring white church to Emanuel. People come across with purple flowers. I mean, this is unbelievable. This is South Carolina. I mean, it's a very -- there's a lot of segregation in the state. But suddenly, you see people saying, you know what, it's time for a different way. And I just find it -- I mean to me, it is emotional inspiring. This is, I mean, the devil was at work. This is an act of absolute base evil to go into a prayer meeting with a gun and kill people. And instead, you see people who's been talking about, well, you know, that's just the way it's been down here. You know, black and white folks just don't hang around each other. You see people making a statement based on love. I just -- I find it, you know to me, it's always incredible.
GUILFOYLE: OK. So I do want to say this, I mean, about South Carolina. I've spent time there and I find it a very nice place to be with people getting along very well. My experience wasn't that it was segregated. I mean, I saw people in different, you know, houses of worship together, and so I was encouraged by that. And I think its evidence and the example that they have accept for the country, and how they have come together to worship. And also show respect for the victims, their families and the mourning that they have done together, Jessie?
JESSIE WATTERS, GUEST CO-HOST: Yeah, it's very tragic that sometimes it takes something as horrible as this death, to bring people together. If you look at all of the institutions over the last year that have been attacked and demonized, they all performed heroically. If you look at the police who have been attacked for doing their jobs, looked what happened. The police went out, within a few hours, caught this guy, didn't have to fire any weapons and brought him back to justice. Fox News has been attacked viciously for doing what we do, and it was actually a Fox News viewer who saw this while watching Fox and Friends. Called in the tip and got this guy nabbed. And churches, Christianity has been under attack recently, you know, for not baking some hypothetical gay wedding cake. And Christianity has been maligned by, you know, even people in the White House and the fact that these Christians came together after this tragedy and forgave this shooter in court like that is just unbelievable. So I was really happy to see that.
MELISSA FRANCIS, GUEST CO-HOST: It was -- I have to say, it was a tough day in church yesterday. I was sitting there and you know you look around at these little church ladies in their hats with their bags. And I couldn't help but picture some of the faces that we saw on the screen after the shooting. And these are the people -- this is the type of person that this monster came in an attacked, but I think that the best message of all is what Senator Scot said. He wanted to create a race war, so let's do that. Let's do the opposite of that. Whatever you encounter in your life, I mean, you try to figure out what can I do as an individual to make a difference. Let's make sure we make every (inaudible) we can do, whatever we can, to not do that. I mean, the fighting and the bickering we have seen afterwards is disheartening. This message of coming together, I think is the answer.
TOM SHILLUE, GUEST CO-HOST: Well, I think that's what happens. In tragedies, people do come together. So it is not surprising to me when this happens. Jessie, you talked about the forgiveness. There's something about that. I want to be careful about the way I say this because I'm not a big forgiveness guy. You know, and I'm not going to criticize.
FRANCIS: It's good to know.
SHILLUE: Well, listen.
SHILLUE: It's interesting because sometimes after tragedies, it happened -- I remember after Columbine, a lot of students came out and said, "We forgive you." And it's a Christian impulse to forgive, but this rush to forgiveness is almost as bad as a rush to judgment. I don't forgive. I would like to convict and I would like to punish, and I leave forgiveness to God. And he doesn't need any nudges from me, all right? So I wouldn't criticize anyone in the families who -- anyway, they're going to cope. It's fine with me, if they want them someone to help or if they want to forgive them. But I don't do that. I pull the switch and as I do it, I'll say, God have mercy on your soul, but it's different.
GUILFOYLE: And you're supposed to be the funny guy this time.
GUILFOYLE: Wow. I mean, that's. SHILLUE: The thing is I think, you know, I think that -- you said you were inspired by forgiveness. Were you really or did you feel you were supposed to be?
WATTERS: I was shocked and I was inspired by it. Listen, everybody reacts to tragedies in different ways. I'm not going to second guess the way these people have reacted to the tragedy.
WATTERS: You know, you may want, you know flip the electric chairs switch, just like I did. Just like they do, but they can still want to forgive them because that's their moral compass and I don't have any problem with that.
FRANCIS: And this is what forgiveness is about your own internal soul, your own internal compass. I mean, that's about being able to move on for yourself and getting right with what happened.
FRANCIS: I don't know that it actually has anything to bear on this monster. He even notices whether or not people forgave him. In fact, he might be upset of people forgiving him.
SHILLUE: I'm sure.
FRANCIS: I don't think it has anything to do with him. It has to the individual in how they choose to go on in processing. Go on with their life.
SHILLUE: I'm just saying I'm open to staying angry. If anybody else there doesn't want to forgive --
SHILLUE: You can join me.
WILLIAMS: Well, you know what's interesting for me is a black person is, you know, it has a lot of anger. But then the anger I think - as I said, I find it overwhelming. That people in the midst of such abuse can somehow say, you know, there's something larger. There's a redemptive factor, if you will.
GUILFOYLE: Because they have spirituality.
WILLIAMS: Well, I guess so.
GUILFOYLE: They have Jesus Christ in their life. That's.
WILLIAMS: Yeah. They.
GUILFOYLE: That's the difference.
WILLIAMS: Well, yeah.
GUILFOYLE: And I want to ask you Juan, look at the difference when you see the juxtaposition between, you know, Baltimore, like Ferguson. And then you see how this has manifested into such a lesson, a teachable moment in Charleston. How do you explain the difference?
WILLIAMS: Well, I think obviously, when you're dealing with the faith based community and I think the church has been there as a voice for black people. And so it was organized and I think you got older people. I think in place like Baltimore or Ferguson, dealing with young, uneducated and often time very poor black people.
GUILFOYLE: And they learned from this example that's been said.
WILLIAMS: Well, I think everybody is learning, you know. And I think part of it also is you know, a lot of times people don't see racism or people have been reluctant to acknowledge racism. And so here, you're talking about forgiveness, Tom. You know, you try to relate (ph). Hey, we got to get along. Some people just don't want to see that there's a racial difference in America. Guess what? People are seeing it. And I think for the first time in many ways, eyes are open because there's no way that you can say this. The kids in Ferguson or the kids in Baltimore, gee, those kids are out of control. Here, it is hard to say people in a prayer meeting are out of control.
GUILFOYLE: Well, yeah, but no one is saying that. But I think.
WILLIAMS: No, that's what I'm saying. So I think there's an opportunity here to say, you know what, this was rank and this was wrong and yes, I'm angry about it. But guess what? You know, out of the most foul situation, here comes the flower of hope.
WATTERS: Yeah, there's -- there are few opportunities here to look at this. If you look at the way people react to -- let just say, a Muslim terrorist attack.
WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah.
WATTERS: When there is a Muslim terrorist attack in this country, you know, such as Fort Hood. They say it's workplace violence or if there's a Muslim terrorist attack. You know there's not a lot of emphasis on describing even the victims. I remember the president wouldn't even call them Christians. Or they said, he said it was an indiscriminate random attack. He is not really calling it as it is. And he's trying to separate Muslims from the jihad. And I understand what he's trying to do. I disagree with it, but here you have a white racist. Lone Wolf nut job that goes out.
FRANCIS: It's psychotic.
WATTERS: Obviously, motivated by racial hatred.
WATTERS: And the president immediately calls him a racist and all of a sudden, White America needs to reflect. So I wish that the president and everybody could kind of coalesce in the way we deal with Muslim jihadists in the same way we deal with this guy.
GUILFOYLE: Juan, quick response and we're going to jump.
WILLIAMS: Well, I think that you have to call it terrorism. I'm glad you see him in that way. I'm all for being honest and not engaging in some sort of PC language and all that workplace terrorism or anything right that. But I understand, what you said is true about Obama doesn't want to start a religious war either. And he is trying to downplay that because we want to have the cooperation example of Muslim countries.
GUILFOYLE: And I want.
WILLIAMS: But this is pretty clear. And I want -- so surprised, last sequence (ph), some people who didn't want to deal with the clarity.
GUILFOYLE: OK. Well, I want to thank you for that because that's what's coming up next.
WILLIAMS: Actually, for your will, for your will.
GUILFOYLE: Beautiful transition. I love to get segue.
Coming up, the tragedy in South Carolina has already turned political and debate over the Confederate flag, gun control and the president's use of the N-word has intensified. We discuss, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOFF: That we are standing here and sitting here this morning.
GOF: Faith of our fathers. Faith about mothers, faith of the church in which God has.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: The massacre at predominantly black church in South Carolina last week is sparking a national discussion about race relations in this country. But the President Obama go too far when addressing the issue?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It is incontrovertible that race relations have improved significantly during my lifetime and yours. And those opportunities have opened up and that attitudes have changed.
MARC MARON, WTF PODCAST: Yeah.
OBAMA: That is a fact. What is also true is that the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, discrimination in almost every institution of our lives. You know, that casts a long shadow and that's still part of our DNA that's passed on. We're not cured of it.
OBAMA: Racism. We are not cured of, clearly. And it's not just a matter of it not being polite to say (beep) in public. That's not the measure of whether racism still exists or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: The White House said early today, the president doesn't regret saying it. And now some African-American leaders are coming to his defense. Here's Congressman James Clyburn and Professor Michael Eric Dyson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES CLYBURN, SOUTH CAROLINA CONGRESMAN: I think in that instance, President Obama was being the professor that he used to be before he became a United States senator. When I first heard it this morning, I said to myself, my Lord, what was he thinking about? And then I saw the whole thing as you just put it. I said I know what he's thinking about. He is trying to give a lesson, trying to teach a lesson.
MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR: Those of us who have been pressing President Obama to speak more articulately about race, this is part of the pay off. This is a man who knows so much more than he has been willing to or allowed to speak about in public spaces.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: So Juan, let me ask you. It is a very powerful word, obviously and -- does this word right now, right on the heels of Charleston, do you think this unites people or do you think this divides people?
WILLIAMS: No, I don't think as any question. I mean, you know me well not to know, I - because you love hip hop music and I just can't stand the license that's given to -- mostly, black musicians.
WILLIAMS: In using this word as a sign of rebellion or anger. Their argument is, we are -- we're claiming the power of the word by using it and then we can call each other this thing. Listen, this is stupidity. This is an act that I think was intended to dehumanize black people, to treat them as (inaudible), to suggest they are less than fully human. And for these young people then for to perpetuate it, and now I think for President Obama, to use it in public is a mistake.
WATTERS: You do.
WILLIAMS: And here's why. I agree with a lot of what Jim Clyburn had just said. You know, there's a here. He never uses that word when he's talking to me because it would make me feel uncomfortable and feel defensive, no. But he is saying he got to go beyond at understanding larger, structural forces and lastly, you know, you say, oh, and the polls indicate this that white people think black people are less intelligent. They think they are trustworthy, less patriotic. That in some point, you got to deal with these root issues. It is not just, not calling somebody a name.
WATTERS: Well, I mean I don't know about those polls, Juan. I do know that the president seems to be taking an isolated incident from a random psychopath racist. And extrapolating and leveraging that out to indict the entire American community and saying that we have racist DNA. I don't know about that. Kimberly, what did you think of this? Where there's a look like Michael Eric Dyson there in that clip, was saying, "I've been wanting the president to say this word. I've been urging the president to say this word.
WILLIAMS: Divine (ph).
WATTERS: And I want him to use it more.
GUILFOYLE: Do you feel better now? I mean, really?
GUILFOYLE: And they said that the president has not been allowed to speak his mind in public place, really? He's the president of the United States. He can say what he wants. He can say what he believes and what he feels. I don't think that the dialogue has been moved forward or understanding advance by use of the word by the president.
WILLIAMS: I agree with you.
WATTERS: That's true.
GUILFOYLE: I think its part, you know, he's dignified. He does not need to even give that word, utterance or license.
WILLIAMS: You shouldn't give a license, but I --
GUILFOYLE: I think.
WILLIAMS: You know, but I think to what you are saying is interesting to me. It's that I think that he, as the president of the United States is somewhat inhibited because he doesn't want anybody, when he's talking about race, to say, well, let the president. He shouldn't get involved. Or the president politically might suffer. Whites might be antagonizing if he can say he is a black person. He's --
FRANCIS: No way.
WATTERS: Look, I mean.
WATTERS: He can say whatever he wants, right?
FRANCIS: He can say whatever he wants, right. He's -- at the end of his term, I mean, he most of the time seem like he doesn't care what everyone thinks anyways. So I think he's exactly in the point where he could say anything he wants. But if I could try and put maybe a little softer point on what you were trying to say, is that I think that maybe a lot of.
SHILLUE: Are you to say.
SHILLUE: My point is slow (ph).
FRANCIS: I know. Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that what you were trying to say, in what some of us may have been feeling is like you don't want to be lumped in with this monster because you have the same skin color.
FRANCIS: And I think that's.
FRANCIS: Some of the reaction and it's very hard to sit there and feel that you are being lumped in with this guy just because we also happen to be white.
GUILFOYLE: This was an act of an individual.
GUILFOYLE: Of an individual, of one person.
WATTERS: And Tom, are you sick of being lectured by democrats about being racist? Because from what I recall, I think it was the Republican Party that freed the slaves. I think the Confederate flag was the flag of the Democratic Party in the south. You know you have Nikki Haley in South Carolina, republican. You have Tim Scott, black senator, South Carolina. You have an Indian-American running for president, a Cuban American. What is with all these constant lectures about racism?
SHILLUE: Well, Jessie, you make a salient point. But, I'm not sick of being called a racist. The more they used that term, to lessen its power, and so my friends, we should all say the term.
FRANCIS: No, no.
SHILLUE: Begin with Kimberly. Go ahead.
FRANCIS: No. no.
GUILFOYLE: Tom, you'll be remove from the.
SHILLUE: You know one person.
SHILLUE: Who was -- he was OK with the president using that word is Marc Maron because his podcast is getting tons of publicity. First, he got the president and then he got a president to say something controversial. I mean, he's doing pretty well.
WATTERS: That's true and he is obviously a premeditated use of the word. The president doesn't do anything by mistake. All right, since the shootings, some have been calling for South Carolina to remove the Confederate flag from state grounds. Governor Nikki Haley joined by South Carolina senators Tim Scott and Lindsay Graham, just address to the issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIKKI HALEY, SOUTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR: We are here in a moment of unity in our state without ill will, to say it's time to move the flag from the Capital grounds.
HALEY: For good and for bad, whether it is on the state house grounds or in a museum, the flag will always be a part of the soil of South Carolina. But this is a moment in which we can say that flag, while an integral part of our past, does not represent the future of our great state. My hope is that by removing a symbol that divides us, we can move forward as a state in harmony, and we can honor the nine blessed souls who are now in heaven.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: Kimberly, the flag, initially who is by (inaudible) democrat governor down in South Carolina and now is taking republican Governor Nikki Haley. It's a remove (ph) it, what do you think?
GUILFOYLE: Well, I think she spoke passionately and eloquently, and with a great courage and conviction in the hopes to heal hearts and minds. I'm the states right, you know, issue person and if they want to do that in their state, it should be their decision to do so.
WATTERS: Juan, are you offended by the Confederate flag?
WILLIAMS: It is a symbol of hate to me. I mean, there's no question about that. Not only that, I will say this. I think it was a symbol of people who wanted to break apart from the United States of America, the country I love so dearly, people who wanted to secede from this country. So I don't understand. The people say, oh, it is a matter of our traditions and our, you know our ancestors fought in that war. Well, guess what, you were fighting against the United States of America. I don't understand it.
WATTERS: Well, when Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, he, you know, commemorated the Confederate flag.
WILLIAMS: Yeah, because politician.
WILLIAMS: I mean, if you raise the politician.
WATTERS: I don't know. Would be a racist there? I'm not sure.
WILLIAMS: I didn't say - no, no. That have to be racist, it can be the political.
WATTERS: Then we have the media act (ph).
WILLIAMS: OK, all right.
WATTERS: And he had hatred in his heart maybe. I'm not so sure.
FRANCIS: I -- you know, I don't -- I have never lived in the south, so I don't think I can really understand the symbolism of it, people who are behind it, and for it, against it and everything else. You know, this is just one of those issues that people who are right there are very passionate about.
SHILLUE: Well, Nikki Haley said, "The time to remove is now." I don't really agree with that. I think the time was when the Civil War ended.
WILLIAMS: Check it out.
SHILLUE: I mean, it's pretty simple, isn't it? You lost the war. You got to lose the flag, guys. And then.
GUILFOYLE: Someone forgot to add, it's the calendar.
SHILLUE: And the thing is I don't have a problem with these some guys driving around with it on their truck or whatever it is. But the State House, I mean, I don't think it should have ever been at the State House. I think it was a scenario of.
WILLIAMS: Let me tell you a quick story.
WILLIAMS: This is a painful story.
WILLIAMS: So my kids, when they were growing up, they loved "Dukes of Hazard."
WILLIAMS: Right? OK. So these are little kids. And they come to me and they said, "Dad, we want the car."
WILLIAMS: We want the car.
WILLIAMS: OK, all right. So I go off to the toy store Jessie, and what do I find on the side of the car is.
WATTERS: Pixy (ph), yeah.
WILLIAMS: The Confederate flag.
WATTERS: Right. I don't know about that.
WATTERS: (inaudible) I think had something else, they were thinking about. All right.
WATTERS: Many on the left have used the killing to push for stricter gun control. Karl Rove explains why that argument might fall flat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL ROVE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Maybe there's some magic law that will keep us from having more of these. I mean, basically, the only way to guarantee that we would dramatically reduce acts of violence from involving guns is to basically remove guns from society. And until somebody gets enough (inaudible) repeal the second amendment, that's not going to happen. I don't think that's an answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: With all due respect to Karl Rove, I think that's preposterous, hypothetical -- Kimberly, if you remove all guns and criminals are going to be the only one that have guns, is that right?
GUILFOYLE: Yeah. I mean, no. I mean, listen, we've got good laws on the books with respect to guns and we now need to make sure that if we see something or someone who's had mental health issues or a record, then you make sure that they don't have guns. The answer isn't like to take them all away.
WATTERS: Right. And I think President Obama had the House in the Senate, the first two years didn't do anything on gun control. And when he came out and made the statement the other day, about new gun control laws, none of those proposed laws would have prevented this incident. So I don't.
WILLIAMS: Well, it's a terrific piece. I read that terrific piece today by conservative right (ph) are pointing out, that all the democratic proposals would not have prevented this.
WILLIAMS: But, you know, to my mind, I don't understand why we can't because as I understand it form the polls, most gun owners are in favor of stronger background checks.
WILLIAMS: Do not see the need for people to be going around the country with tremendous automatic weaponry. There are limits.
FRANCIS: You know what.
WATTERS: I know if anybody else has automatic weaponry.
FRANCIS: Maybe they.
WATTERS: Around the country, Juan.
WILLIAMS: Well, I know, a lot of people, especially after Obama said something. There's a rush to get the kind of bullets, Jessie that you know, that go into automatic weapons.
WATTERS: That's true. The one thing Obama has been good for the economy is the gun.
WATTERS: The gun industry. Go ahead.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, he's definitely way up.
FRANCIS: But, maybe we have to.
FRANCIS: Is to not have this conversation around the time when something really traumatic like this has happened. I mean.
FRANCIS: If that's what everybody comes back and this, would it have done anything this specific case? And I'm not even sure we know for sure exactly where he got the gun and all the details around it because all those reports have been so conflicting. But maybe in a different time, when we're not so emotional charge to sit down and talk about the laws that are actually on the books and what makes sense and what doesn't.
WATTERS: Yeah. Enforce the laws that are on the book. Now gun-free zones seem pretty dangerous, don't they?
SHILLUE: Yeah, obviously. And I agree. The time is not after a crisis. I didn't like that color coding thing we did after 9/11. I don't think it is good to enact gun laws after a tragedy. It's the wrong time. And that I don't think it is a good time to remove the flag after this incident.
WATTERS: Yeah because you know.
SHILLUE: You do it when you're thinking clearly.
WATTERS: That's true because we're talking about the flag and guns. We're not talking about the victims. All right, now we have to go to Rick Leventhal for the latest on the manhunt for the two New York prison escapees, Rick?
RICK LEVENTHAL, FOX NEWS: Well, Jessie, this is the first major break in this case since the convicted killer Richard Matt, David Sweat, broke out a prison, 17 days ago. The Franklin County sheriff tells me that he thinks, they're closing in on the men and could catch them within the next 24 to 48 hours. We are first on the scene late yesterday afternoon in house had us. State police launched fresh searches of homes and cabins in the thick woods. With the help of aviation and canine teams, police swarming the area after a local man armed with a handgun went to check on his hunting camp, according to the Plattsburg Press-Republican newspaper. And saw a jar of peanut butter and a jug of water inside. When he yells that whoever was in there to come out, he said someone ran out the back door. Police wouldn't come and specifically on what they found, but various reports say there were boots, bloody socks, toiletries, and fingerprints left behind. And police did confirmed, there was a conclusive determination made that the men were in the cabin. So, authorities know that the men were here, in these woods, within the last two days, Jessie. And they seem confident that they're still here and they will be caught.
WATTERS: Well, great news. Thanks Rick. Coming up on The Five, Brian Williams is out of NBC news, after falsely claiming he's helicopter was shot down in Iraq. Now, he's heading to MSNBC instead. So what does that say about the network's standards? New details, next.
WILLIAMS: Brian Williams won't be returning to his anchor chair at NBC News following his six-month suspension for lying about his helicopter getting shot down in 2003. Now he's heading to MSNBC, where he'll be the breaking news anchor. Chuck Todd praised the parent company for how it handled the situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUCK TODD, NBC "NIGHTLY NEWS" ANCHOR (via phone): I'm proud of this how this network dealt with this, took it seriously, took issues of creditability and integrity seriously, and made Brian pay a heavy price. And I also am glad to work for a company that provides an opportunity to earn back trust and earn back a second chance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: But media critic David Zurawik is criticizing a move.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID ZURAWIK, MEDIA CRITIC: If credibility is what you base a news division on, it's what you sell, how can not banishing him be a good idea? And why do you move him from NBC -- he's not -- he's not trustworthy enough to be the anchor for NBC News, but he is for MSNBC.
A lie is a lie, and a liar is a liar. That's why I said banish him. All this other stuff of, you know, that statement from NBC, saying, "Well, most of it he didn't say on the air on NBC platforms."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, right.
ZURAWIK: No, it's still a lie. I mean, the moral reason here is so tortured that you have to wonder why would NBC not just end its relationship with him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Wow. Zurawik makes, I think, a compelling point -- Melissa.
FRANCIS: I think it all comes down to what you think of MSNBC. I mean, that's the bottom line. A lot of what they do is opinion. Look, they've got Al Sharpton over there. The talent, I think, is offended at MSNBC, because they feel like, you know...
WATTERS: The talent?
FRANCIS: ... a person has been demoted. Yes, I think a lot of the people that are on the air at MSNBC...
WATTERS: Oh, OK.
FRANCIS: ... the anchors, the news people, I think they're -- but I think that, on the part of NBC, it's genius. You put him there. You see if he can rebuild.
In business, this is what we call a free option. It costs them basically nothing to see if he can go on the air at MSNBC and rehab himself, which he might be able to do. I mean, he's a very charming individual. He didn't get where he was for nothing. So he goes on there, does the apology tour, wins people back over. They pay much less for him, and maybe help MSNBC in the process.
WILLIAMS: Well, so Kimberly, so what's so interesting...
GUILFOYLE: She's approaching it from a business...
WILLIAMS: All -- it's business. It's just business.
GUILFOYLE: But she's right. She's right. That's what they call it, a free option. This is a business model for them. They really don't have anything to lose. He's willing to sort of eat crow, go back over there and see if he can make something of it.
He actually doesn't have anything to lose either, because otherwise, that was going to be defining his legacy. That's how he was always going to be remembered. Now he can perhaps try and do something else so it doesn't complete the books on him.
WILLIAMS: So it's OK to lie and to dissemble to an audience of millions and get away with it?
GUILFOYLE: I'm not -- he's right about that. But come on. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
SHILLUE: Come on, I feel bad for him. I exaggerate. You know, he was on a helicopter, and maybe he wasn't getting shot down, but I mean, I tell tall tales when I get off of regular airplanes. And, you know, so MSNBC is not a very cutting-edging network, right, bringing the synergy of Microsoft with the legacy of NBC. They're doing fantastic work over there.
WATTERS: Now Brian Williams will be gone from seeing, I think, 10 million people be watching him and now 10 people over at MSNBC.
FRANCIS: Come on.
WATTERS: Keith Olbermann -- Keith Olbermann must be freaking out. He's like, "Oh, my God. Brian Williams has my office now? How did this happen?"
And I know, like, usually at MSNBC when you tell a lie, you get a raise. And I guess he's taking a pay cut now, so I guess he's going to have to ask Al Sharpton how to not pay so many taxes.
WILLIAMS: What did you say, Tom?
SHILLUE: He's starting fights.
SHILLUE: ... at MSNBC. They're not going to come after me.
WILLIAMS: All right.
SHILLUE: If you're afraid to get on a plane.
WILLIAMS: Hang onto that thought. You'll never believe which candidate students are supporting in the 2016 race, or who they think they are supporting anyway. A new video. You won't want to miss this, after the break.
SHILLUE: The 2016 race is heating up, and every candidate is hoping to get the youth vote, but they might be a bit surprised to hear which candidate students are actually talking about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a pretty full house right now in the Republican race. There's ten guys running. So what do you think someone like Congressman John Stamos has to do to kind of stick out and gain support?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He probably just needs to show, like, what he's really doing to work on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: General Mills, he did write a book, and he admitted he had killed people in wars in the past. So would that be another reason you wouldn't want to vote for him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, no. Not because he killed people. I mean, he was in a war. Things happen. But maybe because he wouldn't mind killing more people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Jon Bon Jovi, who just announced his candidacy, is surging in the polls. Do you think he has a legitimate chance of winning?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not really. I don't think he's really going to win, because a lot of people here push for Hillary Clinton a lot. And I think Hillary Clinton has the best chance of winning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you'd say John Bon Jovi's campaign is sort of living on a prayer at this point?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
SHILLUE: Jesse, come on. Is this guy aping you or what? If he put on a polo, I think you should sue. All he needs is to flip up that collar, and he's...
WATTERS: I know. My job is not safe. I actually -- I like this guy. I think he did a nice job.
I noticed that there is -- they paid a little subtle homage to me at the beginning. You know, they asked about Stamos, a.k.a. Uncle Jesse. So I think that was like a smooth way of giving a little heads up. And I recognized that, and I respect that.
No, you know what this goes to show, that "Watters' World" is not deceitfully edited. This was a one-camera shoot with a bunch of real people. There was no slick editing. And this was just raw material. There are people like this out there, and they have no idea what's going on.
GUILFOYLE: He validated you.
WATTERS: He validated. I feel totally validated.
WILLIAMS: You know, people ask me that. They say, "Does Jesse pick -- are those are real people, or does Jesse pick them out because they're so stupid?"
FRANCIS: No, no.
WATTERS: No, they're out there, Juan. They're everywhere.
GUILFOYLE: They really are. I've been there with him when he's doing this job. Remember the time at Hooters?
WATTERS: Oh, yes. Which time?
FRANCIS: Did you hear the punch line, though? When they got to the end of all those individual people, they said they were going to vote for Hillary Clinton anyway.
WATTERS: Yes, exactly.
FRANCIS: So when they got to the end, that's why they didn't know any of the candidates or they were conned by this Don Corleone or Ford Taurus or General Mills. They said, "I know Hillary Clinton is running, and I'm going to vote for her." So I think that's the problem for Republicans out there.
SHILLUE: But is that -- is it really stupidity or is it just nervousness. They're on TV; they were just nodding their heads.
FRANCIS: I don't know. When you watch the whole thing and he presses them, they go into answers on these individuals that don't exist. I was thinking that.
Although everybody out there should be more paranoid about this. I was walking in front of our building the other day. Somebody asked me for directions to the LEGO store, which was right near us. And I stopped and I stared at them, because I was sure I was being punked. And the poor tourist looked at me and said, "Can you talk?" I just -- because of people like you on the street all the time, I recovered and told them where it was.
SHILLUE: Somebody asked me how to get to Carnegie Hall and I said the old -- I said, "Practice, practice, practice."
GUILFOYLE: Oh, boy. Get real.
SHILLUE: Now Kimberly, you told...
GUILFOYLE: Barbershop quartet. Oh, yes. He's here all week.
SHILLUE: When I asked Kimberly if she would support a Bon Jovi candidacy, she said she was halfway there.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God. Really? I do love Jon Bon Jovi, and I've been to Bon Jovi concerts.
SHILLUE: So why not? Why not...
GUILFOYLE: I wouldn't vote for him unless he was qualified and was a person of integrity with good ethics.
SHILLUE: Well, I don't know if it's that bad. Everyone's saying -- one, was it that much better when kids were tuning in and dropping out? I don't think young people have ever known what's going on.
WILLIAMS: Oh, no. I think that's -- in the 60s, when they were anti-war and, you know, women's movement and so on, I think they were more politically conscious. I think these folks are politically dead to the world, and then they're faking it. They're lying about it.
SHILLUE: OK. Well, you know, maybe in the hippy era they were -- they were more politically aware, but were they making better decisions?
WILLIAMS: No. That's for you to decide.
SHILLUE: Maybe that's it. It's like a business thing. When the economy is good, then people tune out. Maybe it's because the country is going great.
FRANCIS: No, I think that they've been brainwashed at the curb. And that they knew exactly what they were going to do walking in the door. And all of those folks, if you watch that video, when they got to the end, they said, "Hillary is running, and that's who I'm voting for." So they just -- they're not even paying attention to anyone else who's in the race, and that is a point to Republicans.
SHILLUE: Well, I think I played devil's advocate very well.
OK, coming up, Taylor Swift is so powerful she just went head to head with the world's biggest company and won. The superstar's major victory over Apple is next.
FRANCIS: Taylor Swift is one of the hottest and most powerful musicians on the planet right now. Remember this music video?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAYLOR SWIFT, SINGER (singing): And a player's going to play, play, play, play and a hater's going to hate, hate, hate, hate, shake it off, shake it off. And a player's going to play, play, play, play, baby. I'm just going to shake, shake, shake, shake, shake it off
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANCIS: That was a long clip.
Well, one thing she wasn't going to shake off was one of Apple's policies for its new music app rolling out later this month. The company originally wasn't going to pay artists royalties during the customers' three-month trial period, but Swift wrote an open letter over the weekend, criticizing Apple, and the tech giant announced it would be changing its policy.
FRANCIS: She fought back, and she won. Kimberly, so it's hard to...
GUILFOYLE: She's the new Oprah. Right?
FRANCIS: She's rich like Oprah.
GUILFOYLE: Starbucks is going to give her one of her little, like, chai teas. They have the Oprah chai tea. It's delicious.
WATTERS: How do you know?
FRANCIS: There you go.
GUILFOYLE: How do I know? I'm predicting it.
WATTERS: Oh, I thought you had to be Oprah to get the tea.
FRANCIS: No, I think Taylor Swift can get the tea.
WATTERS: Oh, I don't know you could do that. Sorry. I don't go to Starbucks.
FRANCIS: Let me try and get this back on track for a second here.
WATTERS: Sorry. We're on the air?
FRANCIS: Listening to -- Juan, listening to Taylor Swift talk about how she wants to get paid can be hard for some to stomach, because she's as rich as Oprah, as Kimberly pointed out. But then Apple is saying, who is also loaded, that they're not going to pay their artists. I mean, most artists out there, most of them are like starving artists everywhere, whether they're in painting art or, you know, they write or whatever. They don't have two nickels to rub together. So Apple not paying all these other folks, she just had the power to get out there and say it. What do you think?
WILLIAMS: Well, Taylor Swift may be rich all get-out, but guess what? Apple is richer. Apple's the big boy. So the idea was they were going to enrich themselves further. And Taylor Swift and artists, some of whom can't rub a nickel together, were getting wiped out.
I happen to think people who are creative and make music, even if I -- you know, I don't know if I like it or don't like it, but it doesn't matter. They're creators, and they should be rewarded. I think that's America.
FRANCIS: Well, Apple was saying, "We're going to give it away for free for three months. You guys try it. If you like it, keep it later." So Apple wasn't getting paid during that period either, but they have the luxury of saying, "Use our stuff for free."
Her point was, "You're not going to give me an iPod for free."
WILLIAMS: No, they're just building their audience. They're building the market.
WATTERS: She's an amazing negotiator. We could have used her on the Bergdahl trade. I think Obama really needed her.
FRANCIS: You're going right there?
WATTERS: Absolutely. If it's not too late, we could use her for Iran. Kerry broke his leg. Send her over to Geneva. She could get the deal done.
SHILLUE: They jump. They jump. I don't know if they would have done this back in the old Steve Jobs days, because he had a lot -- he was a real personality himself. But they've got to jump when Taylor Swift says to shake it. And you know, I don't blame them. She's fantastic. I love Taylor Swift. I love, you know -- when the family is away, I put on Taylor Swift and I dance, dance, dance.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God.
FRANCIS: Did you notice? He was completely distracted during that whole video.
GUILFOYLE: Yes. The point is she's powerful. She has a voice. She's using it. Other people who don't have the same ability to persuade or make the case themselves are now going to benefit from it, so I like that.
WATTERS: I thought artists didn't care about money. Right? I thought it was all about the art. The principle.
SHILLUE: That's what she's saying. It's her art. She doesn't want to give it away for free.
WILLIAMS: That's why she's half naked in the video.
SHILLUE: She's classy.
WILLIAMS: Oh, is that right?
GUILFOYLE: She has a classy belly (ph).
FRANCIS: We've got to go.
"One More Thing" up next.
GUILFOYLE: Here we are. It's time now for "One More Thing." Tom, what do you have to entertain and delight us?
SHILLUE: "Red Eye with Tom Shillue" premieres tonight.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, self-promotion.
SHILLUE: It's my big night. I've been out there. But the thing is, I've been out there promoting one person at a time. I'm doing marketing on the street. Look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHILLUE: Eight by ten? Eight by ten? Eight by ten? How are you doing? Eight by ten?
Well, I'm going to -- this fellow here is going to be the new host of "Red Eye" at 3 a.m.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're kidding. I like the old host.
SHILLUE: Thank you for taking the picture.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Nice to meet you.
SHILLUE: I'll see you at 3 a.m.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHILLUE: See, they like the old host. You know how much I hear that when I go out on the street? They get my eight by tens? They say, "I like the old host."
WATTERS: The person who liked the old host had a parrot in roller skates.
GUILFOYLE: Well, we're going to be watching. Congratulations. Very exciting. And the old host is thrilled for you, as well.
FRANCIS: All right. On a brighter note, St. Patrick's Cathedral was filled to the rafters today to remember James Lee, Jimmy Lee. He was a titan on Wall Street.
But my point is, his son got up and gave the eulogy today. And he talked about how his dad, because of his job, went to work every day at 5 a.m. in the morning, and he would take the cardboard out of his shirt and leave a note for his kids about something they'd done the night before. A joke, a word of encouragement. It was really touching, and it reminded everyone there to live your life every day as if the person who's going to write your eulogy is watching, because they probably are.
GUILFOYLE: Very nice. Well, God bless him and his family. Very, very tough to lose. And of course, with Father's Day.
GUILFOYLE: That must make it very difficult.
We have some exciting news that was shared with our FOX viewers this morning on "FOX & Friends" first. And it's always wonderful when something incredible happens to one of your very best friends. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've had an extra little man or little girl on set with us for the past five months.
AINSLEY EARHARDT, CO-HOST, "FOX & FRIENDS": We're having a baby. My husband and I are having a baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Isn't that so sweet? That's their little baby. They've got a little (UNINTELLIGIBLE). There's Ainsley. We're very excited for her. So this is thrilling. Her parents are super excited, too. It's going to be their first grandchild. Yes, it's very exciting. We're super happy. We love you, Ainsley. And yes, baby shower on the way.
All right. Jesse.
WATTERS: OK. So television history, when you think about that, what do you think of? You think of the moon landing. You think of O.J. Simpson bronco chase? And then this week, you have this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL O'REILLY, HOST, "THE O'REILLY FACTOR": A couple of months ago, we asked you if you would like to see Jesse Watters substitute for me here on "The Factor." Incredibly, most of you said yes. So next Thursday, June 25, Watters will anchor "The Factor." I may have to go to Paraguay after this.
Now, he's not going to be allowed to put his dopey collar up. He'll have to have a suit and tie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATTERS: There you go. The people have spoken. OK? And you've got to do what the people want.
FRANCIS: How much did you pay the people?
WATTERS: This Thursday -- handsomely -- I'll be on "The Factor," so please tune in.
GUILFOYLE: That's fantastic.
WILLIAMS: This is like Donald Trump, hiring people after...
WATTERS: ... fifty bucks.
WILLIAMS: All right.
SHILLUE: The lady with the parrot told me that she liked Bill better.
WILLIAMS: All right. Here's the fun news from the weekend. So in Milan, Italy, at the Milan World Fair 2015, they got together 60 pizza makers, the best in Italy, and they made a mile-long pizza. It was an 18-hour wait, but you could have a slice for free after those 18 hours.
FRANCIS: How did they cook it?
WILLIAMS: One point five tons of mozzarella, two tons of tomato sauce, five ovens, and free pizza. Now, how are you going to beat that for a good weekend?
GUILFOYLE: I mean, it sounds so delicious.
WILLIAMS: I like pizza.
WATTERS: I'm starving.
GUILFOYLE: Thanks for doing that. Thank you.
All right. Set your DVRs. Never miss an episode of "The Five." That's it for us. Thank you for being here. "Special Report" next.
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