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The Five

Raw emotion, forgiveness at Dylann Roof's bond hearing

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," June 19, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: This is a Fox News alert. I'm Eric Bolling. 21-year-old Dylann Roof appeared in court for the first time, since being apprehended yesterday after the murder of nine people in a Charleston church Wednesday night. Judge James Gosnell announced the charges.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE JAMES GOSNELL, CHARLESTON COUNTY MAGISTRATE: Mr. Roof is charged with nine counts of murder and one count of possession of a weapon during commission of the crime. I do not have the authority to set bond on these charges. On a count -- one count of a possession of a weapon during the commission of the crime -- a violent crime, I'm setting your bond, young man, at $1 million.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: Also, appearing in court were the families of those so callously slain by this murderous thug. They chose not to condemn and seek vengeance but, to forgive and offer prayers. They asked God to have mercy on his soul.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We welcomed you Wednesday night in our bible study with open arms. You have killed some of the most (inaudible) people that I know. Every fiber in my body hurts, and I'll never be the same. Tywanza Sanders was my son, but Tywanza was my hero. Tywanza was my hero. But as we said in the bible study, we enjoyed you, but may God have mercy on you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I too thank you on behalf of my family, for not allowing hate to win. For me, I'm a work in progress and I acknowledge that I am very angry. But one thing Depayne has always joined in, in our family is that she taught me that we are the family that love built. We have no room for hate. So we have to forgive and I pray God on your soul.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will never talk to her ever again. I will never be able to hold her again, but I forgive you. And heaven rest on your soul. You hurt me. You hurt a lot of people. But God forgives you and I forgive you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: So K.G. that was heart-wrenching, listening to six or seven family members of the victims and almost all of it, if not all of them to they said, I forgive you. Even though in just literally, a day and a half after their family members were slain, there's still -- there that forgiving.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: You know what an incredible lesson of love and mercy. Just in their graciousness, their spirituality, their devotion to God to understand, to try to rise above this horrific act of violence. Their family members and loved ones had taken away from them. Like they said, they can never talk to them again, but the last thing so many of them said was have mercy on your soul and I think that's the best way to sum it up.

BOLLING: Julie?

JULIE ROGINSKY, GUEST CO-HOST: You know, you listen to that and you hope that you have that kind of charity in your heart, if this were me I would hope I would be as forgiving. I frankly don't think I could be and I think it just says so much about these people in this community, that 24 hours after this happened they were able to come out and do this, it is heart-wrenching and.

BOLLING: Dana?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: I would say, I like this way of doing the court hearing where you get to actually hear from the victims' families on the day, rather than waiting six or seven months from now when this crime has been processed in our minds. This is actually very raw. I think that's one of the reasons it was so compelling and emotional and I admire them obviously, for getting up and be able to say what they did. And I think then because they are dealing with a hurt that is deeper than anyone else, that their mode of forgiveness is the way to healing. And then it is incumbent upon the people of South Carolina and us, then to make sure that the justice is carried out.

BOLLING: Greg?

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: That might have been the most powerful expression of any human emotion I've ever seen in my life. I'm like -- I will never be that good and I -- we witnessed unmitigated pure evil. And that to me is like the most -- the best example of what is good that I've ever seen in my life. And I've -- you know, I am not religious, but I see this and I can't, you know, begin to understand like, does religion make great people? Or do great people go to religion? I don't know. All I know is what I saw. I can't even understand. I can't even comprehend that. It's so beyond me and so amazing. I'm gob smacked.

BOLLING: Julie, you pointed out how good are these people to be able to have that emotion at that moment and they're the people, the families of the people who were in church on a Wednesday night at 9 o'clock, never expecting something like this to happen.

ROGINSKY: You know one of the most devastating parts of the story and there are so many of them. One of the most devastating is reports of this killer, this alleged killer should I say, said that he almost didn't do this because everybody there was so nice.

BOLLING: Too nice.

ROGINSKY: Everybody there was so nice. He didn't want to kill them. I mean, it is incomprehensible. But of course, you see the community they must have come from when you see the families and the way they reacted to this. It's incomprehensible.

BOLLING: Let's go to Ainsley Earhardt is in Charleston, outside the church to offer us some more details on the victim's families. Ainsley, what do you have?

AINSLEY EARHARDT, FOX NEWS: Yeah. Eric, yes, you know, listening to your conversations, it really -- I think you sum up how the Charleston community feels about this. Of course, it is evil and they are sad. However, they are using this opportunity to share their faith and hoping, like you said, Greg that people do see the good side of religion and do see what forgiveness is all about. These powerful messages are gonna change the hearts and lives of other people that are watching. And I think that is their goal in all of this, so that their loved ones do not die in vain.

Now Reverend Dr. Daniel L. Simmons Sr., a 74-year-old was killed. He worked for the church for 30 years. His granddaughter stood up and she said this "There is proof that they, the victims, lived in love because they cared about your soul." She said that to the suspect. And then went on to say, "Hate will not win." Myra Thompson also was killed, 59-year-old. Her family members said, "I forgive you and my family forgives you, but we would like to take this opportunity to repent. Repent to the one who matters most in life, Christ," she says, "So he can change your ways no matter what happened to you and you will be OK. Do that, and you will be better off than you are right now." Truly caring about the soul of the man that took their loved ones, it's unbelievable.

The theme here is that hate will not win. That the people of Charleston and this community will learn to forgive or have forgiven and that's the theme here. We're not seeing protest. We're not seeing blacks against whites. We're not seeing democrats against republicans. We're seeing unity in this community. My sister lives here and I asked her what was your reaction? And she said, "I am saddened. I am sickened. I am shocked by this." But she said, "I have found hope, seeing how my city has come together in unity." There is gonna be a unity walk here across the Cooper River Bridge, which connects Charleston, downtown Charleston to Mount Pleasant and that will happen on Sunday, where people link arm in arm and they walk across this bridge. It doesn't matter what color, what denomination, what your political affiliation is. You know, and I think the overwhelming theme here, guys, is despite all the evil in this world -- because as we have seen, there is evil in this world -- good overcomes evil and good will always win. Back to you guys in the studio.

BOLLING: All right, Ainsley. Thank you very much for that report. It was a woman on her way to work at a florist shop, 250 miles north of Charleston, who helped bring the manhunt to an end yesterday. Listen to Debbie Dills' incredible story of how she helped the police nab the racist murderer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBBIE DILLS, FLORIST WHO FOLLOWED 5C SHOOTER: I'm not a hero and I'm not brave. I got a little nervous, but I just started talking to the Lord about it. I wasn't sure it was him and I didn't want to get anybody else in trouble or be overreacting. So I called my boss and he said, well, we need to call somebody. And he got on the phone with the Kings Mountain Police and he stayed on the phone with me, I was able to catch up with him and get right behind him and get his tag number. And the Kings Mountain Police and the Shelby City Police caught him within a matter of minutes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: And now that he's been caught and charged, let's bring in Mike Tobin who's outside the courthouse where today's hearing took place. Mike, tell us a little bit about that perp.

MIKE TOBIN, FOX NEWS: Well, the one thing we know about the perp right now is that he is not going to get out of jail before he goes to trial. The judge, Thomas -- James Gosnell, I should say, the chief magistrate out here. He said he doesn't even have the authority to issue a bond on the nine murder charges. He did put a bond of $1 million on the weapons charge, but really it's over killed. This kid won't be able to make the bond and it would still have to happen somehow outside of murder charges. So it's not gonna happen, he's going to stay in jail until he ultimately goes to answers for those charges. One of the things that's quite interesting about where he's staying, he's in the same block as officer Michael Slager who is being held in that very racially charged case for the shooting Walter Scott. Eric?

BOLLING: Greg?

GUTFELD: Mike, there were inflicting stories, you talk about the weapons charge.

TOBIN: Yeah.

GUTFELD: About the gun. If the father bought the gun, he's claiming he bought the gun himself. If his father or someone had bought the gun, knowing that he had a criminal record or he was taking drugs and disrupt purchase, I would assume he would be arrested. Do we have any -- know anything about that?

TOBIN: We haven't seen any efforts toward a prosecution in that case. But I'm sure the question has been raised, particularly back in the offices of the solicitor or the prosecutor out here. At best, that's a very irresponsible thing to do. When we know now that this kid did have some trouble, it was also on taking drugs. We know when he was picked up in February he had some drugs that people take when they're trying to get off opiates. So there's a strong indicator he had been doing stronger drugs. And we know that we've got all this racist language that was in his background. So allowing this kid to get a gun was sloppy at best.

BOLLING: Dana?

PERINO: Mike, from where we sat, we -- when we were listening to the families who were addressing Roof, from what I could see, it didn't seem like he expressed any sort of emotion. Do you know differently, or do you hear anything differently after he confessed?

TOBIN: No. And I think every indication is that he is dry and possibly, a sociopath because we -- you heard him answer a few matter of fact questions there in court, and no indication of emotion or guilt at all.

BOLLING: Julie?

ROGINSKY: It seems -- do you have any indication of if he has a lawyer? Is he using a public defender? I'm curious as to whether you have the celebrity lawyer that is come and try to defend these cases. I'm curious as to who's defending him now, whether it's just a public defender or whether there's some celebrity lawyer on his way to try to get this guy off.

TOBIN: So far, it's a public defender who showed up in court and pardon me, I didn't catch his name because I was listening over a cell connection.

BOLLING: K.G.?

GUILFOYLE: Hey, Mike. So any other information about the family or anyone shows up on his behalf while he was there in court, answering to the charges?

TOBIN: Well, you know we did see some of the family members show up in court and it was terribly sad. A lot of them were escorted. Someone were holding the older women by the arms as they walked in and really, I think more than what we heard from the family members -- well, you can't top what we heard from those family members in court. But watching them coming and going, it really felt like you were looking at people who were emotionally broken.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

BOLLING: OK, Mike. Thank you very much for that report.

So what should happen to Dylann Roof? South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley, who was quite emotional yesterday, said there's only one punishment necessary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, SOUTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR: We want -- absolutely, we want him to have the death penalty. This is the worst case that I've seen and that the country has seen in a long time. We will fight this and we will fight this as hard as we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: K.G. seems like an obvious choice.

GUILFOYLE: Well, right. But there's still gonna to have to be a process. Obviously, account to the fact that there's an aggravation, multiple homicides. He has confessed to it. So it's going to be about the penalty phase. It's obvious that he's going to be held accountable for this. The options are life without possibility of parole or death penalty.

BOLLING: What are mitigating circumstances? What could possibly be mitigating?

GUILFOYLE: We're gonna have to see a development in his background. Was this somebody that was suffering from some mental disease, illness or defect? Was this somebody, you know under the influence of some kind of medication? So they'll perhaps, try to do something like that. It's gonna be very difficult to prove in fact, that he didn't know the nature and quality of the offense that he was committing. That he didn't have the intent to kill because there was some planning, there was premeditation. And then of course, as evidence in the aftermath when he drove. You know -- well, first of all, drove several hours to get to that specific location. Going to a church, a house of worship where you're not going to have weapons in it, so a lot against him.

ROGINSKY: I'm not for the death penalty. I think I've said that before. I don't believe in an eye for an eye. I think the worst punishment you could give anybody is life in prison without the possibility of parole. If that were me, I'd rather be killed. I said that before as well. But the worst thing you could do to this person is life in prison without parole and that's what he should get.

PERINO: I know Kimberly is not here to be interviewed. But can I ask you something about a process like this? If you have a killer who has confessed, can the process of getting to this penalty phase be then sped up and not have to drag on for two or three years?

GUILFOYLE: Right. So it's a great question because what should happen and needs to happen is a whole hearing to determine whether or not it was a valid confession, did they follow all the proper steps. Once a lawyer gets involved, they are gonna say, hey listen, I might try and throw out the confession for my client, get any kind of evidence, statements excluded. Then they start to work on some of the other factors. And then one of other things mitigation would be his youth, you know, his age. But you have to make sure that this is something that withstands legal, you know, discernment and review upon appeal. So it's very difficult to just, you know nailed it in.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Unless he wants to plead guilty and they think that he's able to assist in his defense and in that decision.

BOLLING: Final thoughts?

GUTFELD: Yeah, I mean just to reiterate how much -- what a terrible person I am compared to those lovely people that we saw. My suggestion is to, you know, for the rest of his tiny long life that he should be strapped to a chair and his eyes should be pulled open Clockwork Orange in July. And his misdeeds should be played before over and over again. And the last pain -- the last feeling in his life has to be excruciatingly painful. And then I'll be happy.

BOLLING: All right. When we come back, the blame game continues in the aftermath of the South Carolina massacre. Meanwhile, the prosecutor vows to bring justice to the community and the victims.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCARLETT WILSON, SOUTH CAROLINA PROSECUTOR: My mission is to bring justice for this community and especially for the victims in this case. And we will do it efficiently and effectively. And we'll do it behind the scenes, so that we can be successful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: So after such brutal crimes, we're left with people asking, how come we don't do anything about it? Well, we do something: We arrest and punish the vermin responsible. And then of course, we argue about guns. Although often, it's only the loudest, sometimes British voices we hear. And then we return to our neutral corners and wait until the next crime occurs.

This shooter, why name him, should be boiled alive. The rest of us, though, should seek common ground or we'll go around this track forever.

Number one, obviously, when a racist act occurs it's proof that racism exist, and may never, ever go away, a leftover scab from the early days of group living. However, when you use this murderous act to represent a greater whole -- as if society itself pulled this trigger --then you diminish evil. Our revulsion to the crime, not the crime itself, indicates who we are. When this shooting took place, society didn't rejoice. Instead, hearing the news was like ingesting ipecac. It made us sick to our stomachs. A racist country doesn't recoil.

So this was a racist act, but it was also terror. Forget mental illness, if this punk is deranged, then so ISIS. Seriously, beheading people on a beach is just as crazy. Insanity should be case-by-case, not race-by-race. Fact is calling him deranged is a cop out. He planned his cowardice. He almost changed his mind. Young men, be they white, black, Arab, don't need a screw loose to be evil. All they need is a thirst for infamy, a toxic belief and a path. What they don't need from us is an excuse.

So there's been a lot of blame going around because that's what happens the next day. They blame drugs, Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

GUTFELD: They blame guns. They blame Fox News. I can play that tape later. They blame society. They blame gentrification. I don't even understand half this stuff. Is this just a natural human need?

GUILFOYLE: Right. Because we struggle to try and understand and to make sense of something because you don't want to actually say pure unadulterated evil, like the devil exists on earth, but it does. And what happened in Charleston is evidence, proof of that, I think, conclusively. So they try and blame guns and do everything, but it's misdirected. It's not really helpful. It's just operating in a state of denial. The guns don't sit there and do things on their own. Guns are used to save lives every day as well, and to defend others lawfully and legally in this country. So you shouldn't confuse the two.

GUTFELD: You know Julie, a lot of people they mentioned deranged, crazy, but there are millions of people with mental illness who don't shoot black people in churches.

ROGINSKY: Right.

GUTFELD: And sometimes it just seems that that's -- I don't know, the go to spot for some reason.

ROGINSKY: You know I'm so glad you called this an act of terror because if this guy were -- I don't know, let say Muslim, we'd be calling him a terrorist. This guy is a terrorist. And there's no two ways about it, what he did was perpetuate an act of terror against black people. That's what he did. And to say this was anything else, you know, what I get offended by are people saying, well, you know, we have to look at mental illness. We have to look -- I mean, yeah, there's a whole bunch of different things you want to look at it, that's fine. You want to look at gun control look at gun control. You want to look at mental illness look at mental illness. But you also got to look out at the fact that this was an act of terror, exactly as if somebody from ISIS came here and shot up a synagogue or shot up Times Square, anything else. This is somebody trying to perpetuate terror upon an ethnic community. And that's something that I think is lost in the sauce here when our people talk about, well, he had needs, and he was sick, and he was deranged, he was a lot of those things, maybe. I don't know. I don't know him. I don't know anything about him, really. He was a terrorist and that's what he was. I'm glad you called it for what.

GUTFELD: Yeah, Eric. I mean, if he had an ideology and he attacked based on it.

BOLLING: And that's terror. But he's also a racist.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

BOLLING: I mean, he literally said, you people are having sex with our wives and you're taking over our country. That is -- listen, if you have a problem with President Obama not being able to call a Muslim extremist, a Muslim extremist for whatever ideological reason he doesn't want to do it, then you can't sit here and be white and say that guy wasn't a racist. He was. He is. And should be treated that way, and it should be a hate crime, terror crime, hate crime. Give it, give it all to him. And I would say give him the -- whatever form of capital punishment you can give him in South Carolina. Interesting, though, you know the gun debate, I just -- I can't believe within hours of this murder -- this terror that President Obama brings up the gun debate. The first time he hits the camera. Listen, this is not the time to litigate it. But wow, that was the -- in my opinion that was too early.

ROGINSKY: When was a good time?

BOLLING: I don't know, maybe after they're buried.

ROGINSKY: Well.

BOLLING: I just thought.

ROGINSKY: After everybody moves on? I mean, that's the problem.

BOLLING: All right.

ROGINSKY: Everybody's gonna move on and we're gonna go back to this again, this going to happen again. That's the problem.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: . if you want. And we'll have the debate, and Greg and I will point out that once again, it's a place where there are likely not any guns, that some crazy madman goes in and shoots the place up. But that -- I just would hope we would have waited a few days for that now.

GUTFELD: Dana, I want to play this. This is Jon Stewart, talk -- did a serious monologue on this. He was very moved, and I want to play a piece and then ask you a question about it.

PERINO: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON STEWART, COMEDIAN: Al-Qaeda, all those guys, ISIS? They're not (beep) compared to the damage that we can apparently do to ourselves on a regular basis.

(END VIDEO CLIP) GUTFELD: The issue I have with this is, we. And I'm not sure if I'm misreading this, but the idea that we do to ourselves, the idea of extrapolating a horrific event to society at large. Am I misreading this or?

PERINO: I took it another way.

GUTFELD: OK.

PERINO: Which was just along the lines that human beings can do to themselves, I don't think that he was -- I took -- I just -- I would have take it a different way.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

PERINO: I do think that on the question whenever people want to have that debate about guns, I actually think because that debate is ongoing and it is not going to be solved quickly, there is a part of this law enforcement issue and intelligence sharing that we know that he was on Facebook. We know he was looking at the racist websites. We know that he was writing these types of things. And are we going to get to a point where we can allow law enforcement, to have some sort of deterrent, to be able to get in front of some these things and just check someone out, whatever it might be. I -- those are very tricky, fine lines when it comes to our civil liberties as they stand, but there might have been a way on this -- when we're looking at a digital war -- to not lose it either when it comes to ISIS or even domestic terrorism.

GUTFELD: All right. When we return, for the first time since his suspension, disgraced anchor Brian Williams, speaks out about his lies. Does he deserve a second chance? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: The Brian Williams apology tour has officially begun. In his first interview since being suspended in February for lying about being on a helicopter that was brought down by shell fire in Iraq, Williams opens up about his tall tales. The TV anchor did not specifically say he lied but he told the story correctly for years. Well, until he told it incorrectly. Brian blames the mess on his ego.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN WILLIAMS, FORMER ANCHOR, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": It had to have been ego that made me think I had to be sharper, funnier, quicker than anybody else.

I told the story correctly for years before I told it incorrectly. I was not trying to mislead people. That to me is a huge difference here.

One is too much. Any number north of zero is too many. We can't have it. I can't have it in my life. I can't have it in my work. I can't have it in the company we work for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: The disgraced journalist was demoted to the breaking news anchor role at MSNBC when he returns in August. Lester Holt, meanwhile, will take his place on "NBC Nightly News."

Here Williams reflects on his suspension.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: It has been torture. Looking back it has been absolutely necessary. I have discovered a lot of things. I have been listening to and watching the -- what amount to the black box recordings from my career. I've gone back through everything. Basically, 20 years of public utterances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Quite an extensive process. So Eric are you buying it? Was this a good apology? Was it NBC that made him go out and do this?

BOLLING: Well, I think NBC was smart to push him to go ahead and do it. I think if he wanted to stay on TV, it was the only way he was going to stay on TV by doing it. I think as for NBC and Brian Williams, it's as good as it's going to get. So he's going to go back to MSNBC now. I believe he was on MSNBC before he was chosen to go to NBC and then finally getting the big anchor job.

GUILFOYLE: Full circle.

BOLLING: But things have changed at MSNBC in the last few years. Just imagine the toss from Al. "Thank you, Reverend Al." And then starts he reading his news.

Or the other toss the other way, "Now over to you, Melissa Harris Perry. And by the way, those are beautiful earrings you're wearing right now."

OK, he will be on TV. He's good on television. People will watch Brian Williams. But for once now maybe for his opinion instead of for his journalism.

GUILFOYLE: All right. So it will be interesting. So communications-wise, Dana, do you think that the message was conveyed and this will satiate the public?

PERINO: I think so. I thought he looked humbled. And this is one thing I really admire. The humiliation was not stronger than his desire to go back to work. OK, so he knows it's a major demotion. He knew he had to do this interview. And can you imagine how difficult it was getting up this morning, knowing you have to walk in there and, in front of all of the people that you used to be -- you were the head of the network, and now you're being subjected to an interview by Matt Lauer? And I thought he sounded very humble.

And I think, though, the desire to work, the understanding that, in order to live a meaningful life, he needs to have a reason to get up every day, a place to go, a goal to meet. And I think that MSNBC was probably the only place he was going to be able to go. He had very few allies within NBC. And I would imagine that he will actually improve MSNBC.

GUILFOYLE: And maybe he wants to keep his contract and his money.

GUTFELD: A low bar.

GUILFOYLE: And that's the way to do it.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: And you know what? That's what you do when you take over something, right?

GUTFELD: That's true.

GUILFOYLE: What I'm saying is maybe he wanted to keep his money and his contract, too. And that's still in the family. There's some financial aspects probably at play, as well -- Greg.

GUTFELD: Yes, I mean, it makes sense. MSNBC is the Island of Misfit Toys. And he will fit in there as kind of like the new leader. And people will come and watch and see if he screws up. It really is, though, the media version of solitary confinement. You know, he's got -- it's the second level of punishment that he's going through. But this is a problem I'll never have to worry about because nobody takes me seriously.

GUILFOYLE: He'll be babe in Toyland over there at MSNBC.

ROGINSKY: I have two things about this. Why is he good enough for MSNBC but no credible enough for NBC? So does that mean they're that implying MSNBC deserves less credibility than NBC? That's my one question for...

GUILFOYLE: It's cable.

GUTFELD: It's like MSNBC is like the Frank Stallone to NBC, which is Sly Stallone.

ROGINSKY: That's a great analogy, fantastic analogy.

My second point that I actually have a very difficult time with is why do we subject people in the public eye to self-flagellation all the time? What is with the mea culpa, self-analysis, self-flagellation? "Let's get on the couch in front of all Americans and discuss my innermost feelings. There was something evil inside of me. There's something not right in my head." I don't like it. I mean, you know...

PERINO: It because Americans are forgiving. You know that if you do this interview, like now he's basically -- what else is there left to say?

ROGINSKY: I guess it's the self-analysis. It's not so much that he apologized. I'm fine with that. It's the whole "Oh, my God, I messed up." It's like, come on. Just put out a press release and let's go.

BOLLING: I would say the reason for MSNBC versus another NBC proper, is NBC, the big knock is that he's the journalist. He's supposed to be factually accurate on just about everything that comes out of his mouth. Clearly, we know that's not the same standard that NBC has for MSNBC. It's highly opinionated. And some of the stuff you just go "Oh, really?" He's not going to be held to the perfect journalistic standard that he would at NBC.

GUILFOYLE: Would have gone for it -- and it was also, he was asked what it means to be back. He said, "Obviously, look it wasn't my first choice. I would have loved to have my old job back." But I think he does want to work. And hopefully, he's going to further define his legacy and not leave it with kind of that black mark on it.

Directly ahead, when it comes to being a success in the workforce, which matters most: a college degree or your skills? The surprising new poll results, and that's coming up next on "The Five."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: So the average cost of attending a four-year private university is now nearly $43,000 per year. That's triple the price tag in 1990. Given those numbers, it's easy to wonder is a college degree worth it anymore?

Well, according to a new poll, it might not be, at least when it comes to landing a job. The poll found that workers see social intelligence, computer knowledge and other skills as more important than a four-year degree in launching a successful career.

So Eric, let me ask you this. Let's say you're hiring for a job, and you get a stack of resumes; and you have to figure out a way to basically narrow it down. If someone doesn't have college degree, do you -- would you -- would your instincts be to discard it or to keep it in the pile?

BOLLING: I would say -- let me clarify. It depends on what type of job. But for example, when I was working with -- I had a business, an oil trading business. Right? And people come to me all the time. "I have this experience. I have that experience." It didn't really matter. Some of the best people, most successful people in that type of business had no degree.

I literally stood next to a guy who was a cab driver for ten years prior to getting into a trading pit, and they'd been one of the most successful traders on the planet. It was instinct. It was the same thing that makes athletes good, that make military people good, as well.

Unless, of course, it's some sort of field where you absolutely need a math or science. And if someone doesn't have it, you want to make sure they're qualified for the job first.

PERINO: I was wondering about that, because Kimberly, there are so many people that will ask us for career advice. Or they'll say, like, "Could you look at my resume?" And I would just -- I have to say I think that in a way this is a little bit dangerous. Because we do know that over our lifetime, if you do have a college degree, you are more likely to have more wealth. There are exceptions.

Do you think it's changing enough that parents can maybe let off the gas a little bit?

GUILFOYLE: Yes, I mean, I guess they can. I think it's all about kind of your own self-determination, your focus and your drive. But there are still people and organizations that care about degrees. I think there is no kind of down side to having one. The rest of it is what you make with it.

If you think you're going to walk down the aisle, have the diploma and, you know, greatness is going to pull up like the taco truck in front of your apartment, that's not going to happen. But you can help speed it up along the way by getting those jobs, getting those internships, reaching out to people to get help, and doing something about it. That's the great idea.

GUILFOYLE: ... online a lot.

GUILFOYLE: And the good news is we can teach you how to make the case.

PERINO: You know, one thing that bothered me in this poll, Greg, is that people -- I understand that computer technology and access to it and being able to understand it, which I wish I knew more about it, is important. But one of the things I thought is that having good family connections is important to being -- getting a job rather than going to college.

GUTFELD: Yes. It's sad but true.

PERINO: Do you think it's true?

GUTFELD: I think maybe, yes. But I'm more interested in education. Because they used to teach you how to think about things. It was about how to think.

GUILFOYLE: Think critically.

GUTFELD: Yes. Think critically. But now we're teaching people how to feel. There's no more thinking; it's feeling. Students are now enrolling in anger. If you take a gender studies major, you're going to teach gender studies. It's not going to help you in any other case.

I have no discernible skills. I -- articulating an opinion will not change a tire or install a toilet. And if there were a mass catastrophe on this planet, I would be of no use to anybody except for repopulating.

PERINO: You're not creating any jobs.

GUILFOYLE: Repopulating? God help us!

Stay with being annoying, OK?

PERINO: You have a 2-year-old son.

ROGINSKY: I do.

PERINO: How much time do you devote thinking about his future college career?

ROGINSKY: Twenty-four-7. I hate to admit it, all the time. And I wish I weren't one of those parents. I wish I were the kind of parent...

PERINO: So maybe does this poll give you hope that you can, like, let it go?

ROGINSKY: No. Because before he was even conceived, I was like how do I get him to Harvard? How do I...

GUILFOYLE: You walk around with that folder all the time with the applications.

PERINO: Hopefully, he'll have good family connections.

ROGINSKY: Not to Harvard. They wouldn't let me in.

PERINO: All right. Up next, just in time for Father's Day, a special dad receives a special award. President Bush's emotional remarks about fatherhood when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROGINSKY: As you may know, I may not always see eye to eye with President George W. Bush on politics. But I think we can all agree he's a pretty amazing dad. In fact, President Bush was named father of the year in an event sponsored by the National Father's Day Committee in New York City yesterday. While accepting the award from his daughter Barbara, 43 opened up about how fatherhood and family changed his life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think the most important priority for a dad is to be a dad. In my case, I might have been slightly self-absorbed at times. But when I became a dad, I only had one real job. And that was to provide for these little girls.

Was I always successful? I don't know. They can be the witnesses. But I know this: it was my priority. As a matter of fact, I don't think I would have quit drinking had it not been for being a dad.

You see, what happened to me was, alcohol was becoming a love. And it was beginning to crowd out my affections for the most important love, if you're dad, and that's loving your little girls. And so fatherhood meant sobriety from 1986 on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROGINSKY: All right, Dana. Between your book and this, I'm actually starting to come around on your old boss.

PERINO: Well, mission accomplished.

ROGINSKY: Exactly. But I've got to tell you, you and I were talking about this. You and I were talking about this -- you and I were talking about this -- I got it. Talking about it earlier. You know, that's a pretty amazing story that here's somebody who quit drinking almost immediately because of the girls.

PERINO: In his book "Decision Points" he writes about 14 decisions in his life, fourteen most important. And the No. 1 decision, the one that starts the book, is his decision to stop drinking. I really shouldn't be up there, but he was like a second father to me. I guess we can say that.

I also know of a friend of mine who was a speechwriter for him. And on the morning that this guy's daughter was born, he had a speech due to the president. And he was worried and he thought oh, my gosh should I give him the speech? What do I do? His wife's in the hospital room.

And the phone rings and he says, "Oh, my gosh the Oval Office." But it was the president not calling to ask about the speech. He said, "I heard that you are the new father of a daughter. And for men, having daughters makes us want to become better people."

So when I heard the Father's Day remarks today, I remembered that.

ROGINSKY: That's interesting, Eric. You are the only dad here on this panel. Hopefully, as far as Greg knows. And so...

BOLLING: Can I comment on that? He seems like an absolutely amazing father. And I get it.

And I agree with you, Dana. That when you're a father and you have daughters, it makes you want to be a better father, makes you stop drinking. If you have a 17-year-old son, makes you want to drink a lot more.

Boy, it's not an easy job. But hats off to George W. Bush. Congratulations. You earned it.

GUTFELD: Yes. Well, to me that was just a testament to how great drinking is. That the only way you're going to quit drinking is if you saddle yourself with some insane responsibilities. That's why I'm putting it off for a while.

GUILFOYLE: I think you should have responsibilities.

GUTFELD: I've got -- I have kids that are in the wine cellar.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, God.

GUTFELD: And they're all pinots.

ROGINSKY: Very nice.

GUILFOYLE: Pinot noir?

GUTFELD: Of course.

ROGINSKY: I don't even know that that means.

GUILFOYLE: Not pinot grigio?

GUTFELD: Never!

ROGINSKY: Kimberly, there's a lot of -- first of all, I want to say happy Father's Day to everybody. But secondly there's a lot of mothers out there who are both mothers and fathers to their kids. And you and I are both single moms.

GUILFOYLE: You're looking at it.

ROGINSKY: Exactly. But I have to say my hat's off to them. And obviously happy Mother and Father's Day to you. You're one of them.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, well, thank you. Well, yes. Well, I mean, my dad is great, and he's alive and fantastic.

But I think the Bush family is wonderful. I think -- I really enjoy hearing about them. I'm super delighted that they've served our country so beautifully and in such a fine example of a united family together. Wonderful parenting. So a lot to learn.

PERINO: And how beautiful is Barbara Bush when she introduced him.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: ... that story. Beautiful girls.

ROGINSKY: It's interesting, because you watched those girls grow up, and then you see the women they've become. So congratulations.

Happy Father's Day...

PERINO: Happy Father's Day to everybody.

ROGINSKY: ... to all the awesome dads out there.

"One More Thing" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: All right. Time for One More Thing. I'll kick it off. Tomorrow morning a big "Cashin' In." Rand Paul discusses his brand-new tax plan. A little fair tax, a little flat tax. Kind of cool. Also, the two new entrants into the GOP race, including Jeb Bush and this guy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will be the greatest jobs president that God ever created. I tell you that.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think he taps into a vein of distrust of career politicians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: And that goes on. It's good. Eleven-thirty tomorrow morning. Check it out.

All right. Dana you're up.

PERINO: OK. I last night got to have dinner with Malala Yousafzai. She is the young woman who at 11 years old she started a blog, and it was about little girls in Pakistan who should be allowed to go to school. She was shot in the face by the Taliban. She survived. And she has decided to tell her story. It is an absolutely amazing one. She actually stopped by "The Daily Show" last night before we had dinner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALALA YOUSAFZAI, ACTIVIST: Sometimes people do things that it has been forced upon me or I haven't chosen this life, but the reality is that I have chosen this life.

Sometimes we wait for others and think that a Martin Luther should raise among us, a Nelson Mandela should raise among us and speak for us. But we never realize that they are normal humans like us. And if we step forward we can also bring change just like them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: She's absolutely amazing. And this October there is a documentary that is being released. It's called "He Named Me Malala." It's her story, and it's about her family and what she's trying to do through the Malala Fund to bring educational opportunities to girls everywhere.

And I should clarify: I didn't have a personal dinner with her. It was a group dinner, but I did get to meet her, and she really touched my heart.

BOLLING: Powerful story.

GUILFOYLE: Amazing.

BOLLING: Julie.

GUILFOYLE: One person can change the world and make a difference.

BOLLING: Jules.

ROGINSKY: So recently, visitors to Madame Tussauds in Los Angeles took the opportunity to pose with Arnold Schwarzenegger's wax figure. Look what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks real.

ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, ACTOR/FORMER CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR: Because I am.

Can I help you?

No touching.

Do you want to come into the shot?

Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You scared us!

SCHWARZENEGGER: It's all right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROGINSKY: Oh, my God. I think it's amazing. He was doing it as an opportunity to promote his charity, After-school All-stars. Good job, governor. Great job.

BOLLING: Very, very good. A show (ph) I heard, too.

Greg, you're up.

GUTFELD: All right. Time for...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: "Greg's Eternal Questions about Life"!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Wow.

GUTFELD: Yes. All right. The question for the panel. At what number of pages of a document do you decide not to use a stapler but a paper clip to hold them together?

BOLLING: Twenty.

GUTFELD: Twenty? Interesting.

PERINO: Depends on how long the staple is.

GUTFELD: That's not an answer.

ROGINSKY: Are you talking about the big fat paper clips?

GUTFELD: I don't care.

GUILFOYLE: Are you talking about binder clips?

GUTFELD: What?

GUILFOYLE: She's saying binder clips.

ROGINSKY: Binder clips.

GUTFELD: The ideal number is 14.

ROGINSKY: I don't -- I don't use paper clips.

BOLLING: Of course you don't.

GUILFOYLE: I think it depends on what you have free.

PERINO: The staples are different lengths.

GUTFELD: Enough with your questions. I only asked the question to this thing.

BOLLING: You just did McLaughlin. Like, "No one knows. Wrong. It's 37."

GUTFELD: It's true. I'm a midget McLaughlin.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Yes, enough of that bad visual. And visual of a few good men. Because the U.S. Marines are resurrecting a historic name. All right? So the Army has the Green Berets. The Navy has the SEALs. U.S. Marine Corps bringing back their old moniker of the Raiders, Marine Raiders for the Special Operations Forces, otherwise known as MARSOFs.

GUTFELD: I'm offended by that.

GUILFOYLE: Well, I'm sorry. You would never qualify.

So anyway, but on a positive note we're happy for the Marine Corps. God bless them and their service, and all the great dads out there.

BOLLING: Absolutely. Thank you for your service. Anyway, that's it for us. Happy Father's Day. We'll see you back here with us. See you back here Monday; I'll be back Tuesday. "Special Report" on deck.

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