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The Five

Who's to blame for lack of complete strategy to defeat ISIS?

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," June 9, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Geraldo Rivera, Eric Bolling and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

10 months ago, President Obama admitted he didn't have a plan to defeat ISIS, listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't want to put the cart before the horse. We don't have a strategy yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: But his promised to destroy them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We're going to achieve our goal. We are going to degrade and ultimately defeat ISIL.

Degrade and ultimately destroy the terrorist groups.

With our allies and partners we are gonna degrade and ultimately destroy this terrorist group.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Now ISIS has taken more Christians hostage and it's threatening to conquer Baghdad. Meanwhile, the president said he still doesn't have a specific plan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Plan -- a finalized plan is presented to me by the Pentagon then I will share it with the American people. It's not -- we don't yet have a complete strategy, and so the details of that are not yet worked out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: The president blames the Pentagon, but General Jack Keane says the military has given him plenty of options.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK KEANE, RETIRED FOUR-STAR GENERAL: There were recommendations to do considerably more training than what we're doing in terms of numbers, that's a fact. Secondly, we wanted -- the pentagon wanted advisers down at the frontline. And they've also recommended many more special operations raids than what we have seen to date. All of those recommendations have been categorically denied by the White House and the president. Normally, what happens when we have a national leader who wants to do something in terms of military intervention, he tells the Pentagon, put together some options to accomplish my goal and goal as you stated was defeat ISIS. And they would put together options based on the kind of risks associated with each option. He didn't do that. He laid out all the restrictions prior to the ever putting a plan together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Because it seem implausible that, Kimberly, that the Pentagon hadn't sent over plans in the last 10 months to try to defeat ISIS, or even specifically, if the president wants to be very specific about the training of the Iraqi troops. But if that is what you're planning, to have defeat ISIS, then presumably the Pentagon would have sent a plan. So I think General Jack Keane is probably got some really good sources and there's frustration within the Pentagon because everything they send to the White House gets rejected.

KIMBELRY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: It gets rejected. So then he sort of putting a pass about to them, blames the Pentagon. So naturally, they are frustrated because they are irritated with the president. They've put forward plans. He has summarily rejected them and now he's saying that in fact, that their problem that they're the ones who haven't come up with any ideas because there's disconnect with what the president actually wants to do. I actually -- don't believe that he wants to destroy and defeat ISIS. I think he's gonna do what he needs to do and pass it on, like Charles Krauthammer said to the next president 2016.

PERINO: That's actually -- listen to Charles Krauthammer, we have that here. One of the concerns is that ISIS is gaining. We are 18 months since the fall of Fallujah, I think that's around today, a year since the fall of Mosul, Ramadi was a month ago. Charles Krauthammer says Baghdad is their prize.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Baghdad is being surrounded by ISIS. If you were ISIS, what would you do? You're not gonna win Baghdad, you're not gonna hold it. But if you can penetrate the green zone, you penetrate the U.S. Embassy, you kill Americans, you hoist the black flag over the American Embassy, even for just a day, you will have struck a blow against the United States, that will be incalculable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Eric, I can understand how the president feels like he doesn't have any good options here. Partly, maybe even if they don't want to suggest or admit that there are decisions led to what we are currently dealing with, but he is risk averse when it comes to -- he doesn't -- he wants to be able to solve this problem without any risk to American personnel. I just don't think that's possible.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: You can't win any battle, sporting events, argument, without taking some risk, and you're right because -- what you think about what he did? When he said -- when he drew the red line with Syria? If Syria uses chemical weapons on their own people, we will take Bashar al-Assad out. Proof was they did, he decided to ignored his own red line. Everything he's made promises to do, he's had the back pedal, and so now what he's doing -- apparently what he is doing. According to, you know, Steve Hayes last night, Charles Krauthammer, General Keane, the Pentagon actually has a strategy. They've actually given it to the White House and they're waiting for the White House to approve the strategy.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

BOLLING: And he, for some reason won't do it. Now whether you agree with the strategy or not, at least the process is in play for them to do that. What's the risk of doing it? Say, look, the Pentagon gave us the strategy. We're going to try it, if it works, great. Take the victory lap and say you did it. If it doesn't, blame the Pentagon, but do something because Krauthammer is right. The worst things in the world you can have right now are Americans -- dead Americans in the embassy and the ISIS flag on the embassy.

GERALDO RIVERA, GUEST CO-HOST: I don't think that embassy is gonna fall anytime soon. That is a real fortress, that's the one place where you have a concentration of power. Let me just say it, my 11 assignments to war time Iraq, I never one time, not one time, saw the Iraqi army win a battle. They never won a battle. They are an incompetent organization. The more equipment you give them, the more equipment will be turned over.

BOLLING: That's right.

RIVERA: As they flee to ISIS. I think that you have ambivalence on the part of the president because there is no plan that can succeed without the blood and treasure of the United States being expended. So do we want to lose more American lives to prop up this artificial state? Or will it be essentially carved into three different fiefdoms. The Shiites based in Baghdad, the Sunnis is based in Mosul and the Kurds, based in Irbil. I think that's the, that's the real dilemma facing the United States today. There's no winning strategy that involves the Iraq army leading the way. The dirty secret is Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia they are more comfortable with the Sunnis of ISIS, than they are the Shiites of Baghdad.

PERINO: So it's that good, so he -- Geraldo just said the president is ambivalent. Is that what America -- the world needs, the moment ambivalent president?

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Well -- I've always wondered, how did Hitler get away with so much for so long? And it's -- you're right. It's a combination of ambivalence, of cold-hearted isolationism that's based on ocean privilege. We're far away. It's not a problem. And a spineless bureaucracy that is too frightened to take risks. This plan by the way is weighed down with restrictions. Obama has loaded this mule with so many suitcases that the mule cab never leave. That's the problem. And the fact is --

GUILFOYLE: On purpose.

GUTFELD: If the world understands this, the world understands that our country could solve all conflicts with military solutions, but we won't because we have leaders and we have a moral responsibility but we have also have a political -- we have a political leader who is scared and who is raised on the idea that American force is the true evil. You have our adversaries around the world laughing at us because they're thinking if we only had their power. If Russia, if Russia had the same military power that America did, earth would be called Russia. That's how they would -- they're amazed how reticent we are to go in act, and we're now facing evil, watching Christians getting slaughtered, watching Christians getting executed, we are watching kidnapped, we are watching rapes and you wonder.

GUILFOYLE: Heaven.

GUTFELD: How did Hitler get away for so long? This is why.

RIVERA: I think the only national interest we have with ISIS is revenge. I want revenge on ISIS.

GUTFELD: Fair enough.

RIVERA: Taking the heads off Americans.

GUTFELD: Absolutely.

RIVERA: I want to kill Baghdadi. I want to kill the ISIS leadership. I want to continue to disrupt them as we do Al Qaeda. I want to make it so they never ever enjoy the fruits of their military successes. But --

GUILFOYLE: But you've got a commander in chief that is at odds with everything that you just said. And his ambivalence is in his feckless foreign policy.

RIVERA: He's a kind and gentle person.

GUILFOYLE: I am -- you know what? Is he confused? It's his political ideology. I think we always knew that this is what he was going to do. And I disagree with respect to what we can do in terms of military. It doesn't have to be, you know blood and treasure which we respect so much. There are other means that we can achieve significant gains in that area and to have stability. So the next Fox News alert isn't Baghdad falls, and I understand you say it's a fortress. But nevertheless, did anybody expect all these others will gonna fall? You can put strategic troops on the ground, specific as in terms of Special Forces, operators there that can give real- time intelligence for better targeted strikes. There are things that you can do that are specialized. Not just like flood the area with troops.

RIVERA: The thing we can do is to convince the Sunnis.

GUILFOYLE: And training.

RIVERA: As we did during the surge, that we will bribe them more, we will give them more and better -- the Sunni tribesmen than ISIS can give them. That's the only way we won over the Sunni tribes during the surge. It's the only hope we have.

GUILFOYLE: More like?

RIVERA: Of getting -- I was in Ramadi. I was in Fallujah. I saw dead jihad, I saw pickup trucks full of dead bodies. We can't go that route again and there's no sterile war. Kosovo was the only one as far as I know that where no Americans died. It's very hard to conduct war where we don't die. And I just think, what's the prize at the end of this? To have a corrupt regime in Baghdad that is suppressing the Sunni minority and the Kurdish minority.

GUTFELD: I think the prize, though. We know -- I think we know the prize and that is the destruction of ISIS. As ISIS -- what is the end goal of ISIS in Islamic state? And if they --

GUILFOYLE: Caliphate.

GUTFELD: If they're seen as powerful -- a caliphate, they will get it. The only people that can stop that are -- hopefully, they will be our allies in there, but we have to run it because we're the only people that can run it.

GUILFOYLE: You know how.

GUTFELD: You know the left is pushing back on everything we've been saying about the fact that Obama didn't have a strategy. They're saying that was taken out of context, that when he said that they didn't have a strategy, he was talking about training Iraq soldiers. The fact is that is the strategy. If you have that, you don't have anything, in my view. It's like saying, I didn't -- I didn't mean to mob that person, I just wanted to steal her purse. It's the same thing.

BOLLING: The only -- yes. Yes, now let's put this in context. We're talking ISIS of 30,000, 40,000 troops? That's what their numbers are at? You're right. We can wipe them out in a month.

RIVERA: It's the religion that gives --

BOLLING: Wipe them out in a month, but how do you do? Right. No, but here's the -- this is what I'm getting at. But you -- when you kill the 30 or 40,000 ISIS commandos, someone else becomes the next ISIS. It's another ISIS coming at you.

RIVERA: Right. I agree.

BOLLING: Whether it's Sunni, Shiite or if it's territorial, who knows? When do you stop? When do you say --

GUTFELD: But that is, that's a straw man argument. That means then you look away, when you see the beheadings? You have to fight evil. Even if that means they're there's going to be more evil.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: There will always be evil.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: There will always be evil.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: There will always be evil.

BOLLING: And so do we fight. Look, I'm just -- look, do you fight every single --

GUTFELD: No.

BOLLING: One of them?

GUTFELD: No. That's again. That's a false argument.

BOLLING: But when they do --

GUTFELD: You fight the ones that matter.

BOLLING: But when they do kill Americans as Geraldo points out, you punish them, you hurt them.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

BOLLING: You kill as many as you can. And a lot of people and I would agree with this, do it the way they're doing right now. Beat them down from the air. By the way, 24 air strikes or 21 air strikes in the last 24 hours. That's it?

GUTFELD: Yeah. It's something --

BOLLING: I mean that's it? That's nothing. We should have 24 every hour for the last 24 hours or the last 24 days and then see what happens. Look, there was -- who was the one of the other -- Colonel Peters who said, we didn't worry about the lemonade stand outside of Hitler's -- wherever he was hiding when we took, when Hitler was taken out. There's going to be collateral damage. Deal with it. But do you -- in Kimberly's point, you put American boots on the ground even if they're advisers or you just keep doing what you're doing, hammering them from the air. Maybe it works.

PERINO: This isn't working.

GUTFELD: But then again, but we need, we need people on the ground to tell you where you're hammering. That's a fact.

BOLLING: I won't disagree with that. I don't disagree with that.

PERINO: I don't --

BOLLING: But its training Kurds, maybe it's training Kurds --

GUILFOYLE: So there are things that required.

RIVERA: Requiring David Petraeus.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Well, how about that? But their community prosecuting him, I mean, that was helpful.

RIVERA: A stupid --

PERINO: All right, we gonna move on. Coming up, hundreds turn out to protest a police officer's actions at a pool party in Texas. Others are defending him. There's new developments on that the story. We'll get next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: Did a police officer use excessive force at a pool party in Texas? Hundreds of demonstrators marched last night to protest Corporal Eric Casebolt's conduct after video showed him drawing a weapon, cursing at teens and pinning one girl to the ground. Since he's been -- since, he's been placed on investigative leave, the father of one of the teens at the party thinks Casebolt should lose his job.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact of the matter, this officer recklessly attacked this young lady who was following his instructions to leave. This guy was just out of control. He should be drug tested, then fired. He shouldn't keep his job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: But not everyone thinks the officer was in the wrong. Here are two witnesses defending Casebolt's actions as necessary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN, WITNESS AT MCKINNEY, TX POOL PARTY: He was the first officer to arrive there. I mean, it was chaos when he arrived there. I think he kind of had to match that situation with a good amount of aggression to kind of calm the crowd down.

BENET EMBRY, MCKINNEY, TEXAS RESIDENT: I don't believe it that police officer came out there with the intent of throwing a 14-year-old girl down and starting this. This is not Ferguson. This is not Baltimore. This is not Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown or Eric Gardner or anything like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: This one is very, very interesting because there are a lot of issues, a lot of moving parts to this. Let's bring it around the table. No one really wanted to talk about this in the break. I think everyone is kind of holding it close to the chest here a little bit. Around the table, what do you think?

GUILFOYLE: Come to me first, yes.

BOLLING: Facebook, your thoughts.

GUILFOYLE: OK. It's great. Look. I think that unless you were there, you're not going to 100 percent know what happened. What I'm interested in is hearing multiple different opinions. So if you can get a chance to talk to everybody who was at the scene, that is willing to come forward and make a statement, and you're able to see if you can get all the different videos that people had cell phones, then I (inaudible).

BOLLING: Based on what you saw?

GUILFOYLE: Well, based on what I'm seeing so far, that what we've shown it looks like there was a very chaotic situation that, the officer was trying to control the situation. I'm not 100 percent convinced he needed to pull his gun. I don't think he's going to get fired.

BOLLING: Because --

GUILFOYLE: Because I don't think it was a situation where this is a guy that's just like I'm going to go out here and start pointing my gun and go in psycho on a bunch of kids.

BOLLING: Geraldo, cops have a tough job and sometimes it takes you being tough, man handling some perps, let's call them that.

GUTFELD: That wasn't a perp. That was a 14-year-old girl, Eric.

BOLLING: No. We won't know, we don't --

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: A perp?

BOLLING: No, Greg. They were fighting at the time -- he doesn't know.

GUILFOYLE: The gun with in response to the guy charging towards it --

GUTFELD: Yes.

GUILFOYLE: The officer.

GUTFELD: OK. I changed I mind, she was a perp.

GUILFOYLE: No, not her. How about the guy that's coming out at --

GUTFELD: It was a (inaudible) 14-year -old girl.

(CROSSTALK)

RIVERA: It wasn't a life threatening.

(CROSSTALK)

RIVERA: This wasn't life-threatening. The cop -- you know, I love cops. I think you have to walk in their shoes to understand, you know when they use violence, Michael Brown in Ferguson, a classic case. You weren't in that car to have that huge hulking young man reaching in trying to grab your weapon then you wouldn't understand what it took to -- you know, to take your weapon out and shoot it. Now with a kid, though, in a -- at the young teenager, in a bikini, a mid teenager, Yankin (ph) is a father of three, I have to say it was very, very unprofessional. I think he should be reprimanded, suspended for a time -- maybe reinstated.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: What about the boys?

RIVERA: Racial complaint. He had a racial lawsuit against him. Not saying this is about race, but the cop that has had some checkered past.

BOLLING: So, no --

RIVERA: He beat that kid. He beat that kid.

BOLLING: If you injected race into that. There --

(CROSSTALK)

RIVERA: That was the charge. That's the history book in this particular officer. Now I'm saying you don't take your gun out unless it's a life- threatening situation.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: Dana, your thoughts.

PERINO: Well, I agree with Kimberly because you don't know what it was like on the scene. Of course, we see the video of him pushing her down and that seem excessive.

GUILFOYLE: That part --

PERINO: You know, I've can see why there is a frustration especially on behalf of the father.

BOLLING: Very good. Greg, there were a lot of other people that were running away, he was grabbing them, he was bringing them back, there was alleged fight, there was alleged should property damage, there was jumping the fence -- so there are more than just the 14-year-old girl there that, that could be considered --

GUTFELD: Yeah.

BOLLING: A perp.

GUTFELD: The big point here, this is a pool party that happened 50 miles outside of Dallas, OK? It's a national story because camera phones have now eliminated the local story. This could have been a nothing local story, but because it's being filmed, now you've got millions of people talking about it when in fact stuff like this happens all the time. You break up pool parties, 92 people are killed every single day in car fatalities. What if we filmed every one of them? No one would drive cars.

RIVERA: He will be filming everyone --

GUTFELD: We will, we will. But I'm -- you know, let me finish my point. We need an idiot middle ground, where we have to be honest and say, kids can be idiots and cops can be idiots. I think he could have dialed it back when he came in and he didn't dial it back. That's his problem. Maybe the kids were out of control, that's their problem. But why can't we just agree that this is a stupid pool party where there are people being idiotic and let's move on. Let's not bring protest.

(CROSSTALK) GUILFOYLE: Hold on, hold on.

BOLLING: This guy might lose his job.

GUTFELD: Right, but Eric..

GUTFELD: Maybe he should.

GUILFOYLE: But what about -- hold on. Stand by. This -- now this becomes this mentality that it's okay to rumble with cops. Don't listen.

BOLLING: I agree.

GUILFOYLE: Do whatever the hell you want.0

BOLLING: Agree.

GUILFOYLE: Doesn't matter. I don't care if she's in a bikini or she's in like full camo dress like G.I. Jane. Listen, listen, follow instructions, - -

BOLLING: Agree.

GUILFOYLE: Have respect. And you won't be in all these problems.

BOLLING: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: And with respect to the gun, it's not about girls gone wild, the girl on the ground, it's about the two guys that are charging at him. He's following procedure and then holsters the gun after when he turns back to the girl.

RIVERA: What if he shot that kid?

GUILFOYLE: I'm just telling you --

RIVERA: What if he shot the kid.

GUILFOYLE: If you break it down -- I'm not saying that.

RIVERA: What if this kid --

GUILFOYLE: I don't think he was right. It's like, startled her and some point on top of her, but he was trying to secure her.

BOLLING: What If the kid running towards instead of run away?

GUTFELD: This is the problem. What if, what if, what if.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: I'm not going to what if. I'm just saying there's police procedure.

GUTFELD: Like why do we have -- OK, how about this? Why do we have to take sides? Why do we have to decide? I'm for the cops, no, I'm for the kids.

BOLLING: Who is taking sides?

GUTFELD: You are.

BOLLING: I certainly did no taking sides.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: It's an opinion show.

GUTFELD: No, no, no.

BOLLING: No, no, no, Greg. Greg, you're absolutely incorrect on this. I did not take a side. In fact, I defend law enforcement quite actively and I said last night, he made the mistake --

GUTFELD: Oh, I'm talking about today.

BOLLING: He made a mistake --

GUTFELD: I think, I think, I think the guy over -- the guy overreacted.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: And the cops (inaudible).

BOLLING: Owing this gun -- It should never (inaudible)

RIVERA: You know the ironic thing? McKinney, Texas is the number one place to live in the country. It's certainly the number place to live in Texas according to Forbes and all these other. Wonderfully integrated, it's upscale.

GUILFOYLE: Not anymore.

RIVERA: There is a section where Section 8 housing, and apparently some of these kids came from public housing. They were told about the pool party at the community pool, a private pool with Twitter and social media. You're going to get a lot of that. It could be a lot more --

GUTFELD: Who was a member of the pool? The girl that was -- I think jumped on was a member of the pool.

BOLLING: All right. They're wrapping us. We had a sound bite from Reverend Ronald Wright, who injected race completely into this which I cannot -- don't give up.

GUTFELD: I know taking sides.

BOLLING: All right. When we come back, violent crime is surging in New York City, but New York Times says, don't blame Mayor Bill de Blasio. Plus, Baltimore could break its own record. Last month homicides there total of 43, they're on a pace for a new ominous record, details coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) GUTFELD: ...

Helpful hippos go viral through the human pinball (ph).

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: OK. Thank you, Geraldo.

All right, in the modern age of team sport politics, even something as evil as rape, becomes a partisan football.

In New York City from January to May, we've seen an 8 percent jump in rapes over the same time last year, as well as an 18 percent rise in misdemeanor sex crimes -- pretty bad. Prompting the New York Times to defend Mayor de Blasio, who -- quote -- "has been prey to a tabloid narrative that has insisted the city was returning to the days of 'Taxi Driver.'" So hear that phrase, has been prey? Amazing, only in a Times article on rape is the mayor the victim. How does that happen?

But this gaffe shows the media's chosen bias regarding sex crimes. When discussing campus assaults it's an always an epidemic even if the numbers are exaggerated. But if they are in New York under a progressive mayor, you explain a rise in these attacks as a sign of progress. It's true, the paper's non-alarmist view that the crime wave is due to an increased reporting of rape. It's possible, but unprovable. How do you know how much rape goes on if it's unreported? All you can go by is the jump and reported rape compared to before. And believe me, it's jumped.

This is just a theory meant to explain away a stain on de Blasio's reign and it's an excuse only afforded incompetent progressives. When rape rises, one would normally rage. But under a leftist, it's seen as progress. Well done, Gray Lady, betraying women in the service of ideology. When the numbers go even higher, how will you hail that then?

K.G., you're kind of an expert in law, or so you claim. What about this theory?

GUILFOYLE: It's documented.

GUTFELD: What about this theory that, OK. When the numbers go up it's because people are reporting in that for.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

GUTFELD: How can you know that if it was unreported before?

GUILFOYLE: Exactly. It makes no sense. So they clearly have an agenda here which is to try and help de Blasio and he does need a lot of help.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: This was horrific and one of the rapes that you're talking about was woman so badly beaten was by MS-13 gang members. I'm very familiar with that gang having been on a gang task force and prosecuted many of those cases. That -- there is no way that you can make any excuse for that or try to explain it away or say that it is due to some kind of reporting -- you know, error. The problem is there are real issues right now on the streets of New York that I think can also tie in, in part to stopping stop and frisk.

GUTFELD: Geraldo, I mean, could you apply this mentality to this police incidents that we've been watching for the last two years, that it's a sign of progress that people are seeing them, and they're reporting them because they have cell phones? You could use this logic on anything.

RIVERA: Well, I know that Stop, Question and Frisk, to Kimberly's point, the abolition or the gross de-escalation of Stop and Frisk has led, I believe, almost directly to the spike in murder. Now, is there a comparable analogy when it comes to sexual assaults? I don't know. I don't think so.

But you know, I think that it -- you can make a point. And if the leaders of the PBA are correct and the Sergeants Benevolent Association are correct, the police feel -- are feeling a bit demoralized. They don't feel like Comrade de Blasio -- Comrade Mayor de Blasio, as they style him in the tabloids, certainly the New York Post, they don't feel like he has their back.

Commissioner Bratton, thought, today, the police commissioner came with a very lusty, if I could use an unfortunate adverb there...

GUTFELD: Passionate.

RIVERA: Passionate defense of the mayor, and said that the spike in violent crime and murders particularly is insignificant, particularly when compared to Baltimore, which as we know...

GUTFELD: Was not a fair comparison. But look at Baltimore.

PERINO: It's so much worse there.

GUTFELD: It is.

GUILFOYLE: Chicago, Baltimore -- OK -- Detroit.

BOLLING: Detroit.

GUTFELD: They're saying that burglaries are down, Dana. So by this logic they could just say, "Well, people are just reporting the burglaries less."

PERINO: Do you remember when President Obama came in and in the middle, right after the financial crisis, and he comes up with a big spending program. And they come up with a phrase, jobs saved.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: It's unprovable. But the media totally ran with it and said he saved so many jobs. There was never a number.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: But it was a way to say oh, well it would have been worse without it.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: And I don't think Bratton is just defending de Blasio. Bratton's defending Bratton.

GUTFELD: That's true.

PERINO: These numbers will reflect on his legacy, as well.

GUTFELD: Yes, he's in a bit of a bind. Eric, they often -- they often call this an uptick.

BOLLING: I think it's a little of everything we're talking about. It's a little bit of the demoralization of the police force -- thank you, Bill de Blasio, for the whole issue about talking to his son of color, if he's ever confronted by a New York City police officer, how to handle it. So you demoralize the police. You embolden the bad guys when they see all the finger pointing at the cops, so you have that, as well.

And then maybe it's some of the gun laws. New York City is of the toughest gun laws in America. People know it. They understand.

RIVERA: People are raping because they don't have guns? Because women don't carry guns?

GUTFELD: Women should.

BOLLING: Well, if I'm a bad guy and I want to rape, murder or rob some place...

RIVERA: Your solution to crime is that everybody should have a gun.

GUTFELD: Not a bad one.

BOLLING: It will make crime go down. Yes. I honestly believe...

RIVERA: Totally unprovable. And I'm glad you brought it up with your...

GUTFELD: No, it is provable.

BOLLING: There was a city in Georgia where they required households to have a gun in the household and crime plummeted. The numbers went -- completely fell apart. Straight down. Robberies, armed robberies, violence, assaults on all levels.

RIVERA: And there are plenty of towns in America where the 4-year-old has shot his 2-year-old sister by using daddy's gun.

BOLLING: ... an anecdote.

RIVERA: This is not the OK Corral.

GUTFELD: Let's point out that eight days into this month, 13 people have been murdered in Baltimore, breaking May's record. Is this due to more reporting?

GUILFOYLE: Yes, I mean, so that's what it is. Stop talking about the murders, and we won't know they're happening. And then we can all just live in a bubble that isn't reality. This makes no sense to me. It really doesn't.

And I want to go to your point about the police officers. When you shame your police department and law enforcement, my goodness, and you take away the effective tools that they need to police these communities and keep them vibrant and safe, where the economy can thrive and people can send their kids to school? You know, this is what you get. And there's no excuse for this. Because guess what? We've had the benefit of history. We know what works. And Stop, Question and Frisk is legal in the United States of America.

BOLLING: Can I add not only shame in New York but in Baltimore, instructing the police to stand down when they see violence happening. That's got to be demoralizing, too. And maybe that's part of the reason the spike in crime.

GUTFELD: All right. We've got to move on. Last week the Times failed to take down Marco Rubio with a pathetic story on traffic tickets. Now, the paper thinks it has another scoop, but this one could actually help the presidential candidate, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: The New York Times is apparently upset these days, with finding anything they can get on Marco Rubio. Last week, it published a piece on a few traffic tickets he and his wife had accrued over 17 years.

Today it ran a story on the 2016 candidate's finances, picking apart his spending habits. But it actually could signal to voters that Rubios struggle with the same kind of money issues as the majority of Americans, like student debt and mortgage payments.

Geraldo, what do you think? Is this something that humanizes him, or does it hurt him?

RIVERA: Well, let me just talk about the "New York Times" first. There is no doubt but that the newspaper of record, so called, has its favorites. You can tell the way they refer to people. If they like you, you're the reporter, Geraldo. If they don't like you it's a reporter, Geraldo. They know how to stylize it. They know who to emphasize. They know who -- who they cheerlead.

It's clear that they have decided Marco Rubio is not the guy they like. He's a, you know, a renegade who has a chance to take down Hillary Clinton. And they're doing everything they can to chop him up.

I've got my own problems with Rubio, Senator Rubio, but it has nothing to do with his college loans.

GUILFOYLE: OK, that will be Part B. Go ahead.

BOLLING: So the -- they do a little forensic accounting. First of all, I think you're going to end up -- this actually helping Marco Rubio.

Last week we heard about the traffic violations. Turns out that he had -- I think he had four of the 17 that they were talking about over a 15- or 16-year period. That's a pretty darn good driving record. So it ended up helping them.

Then they come out with this, worrying about what his finances. And there was some forensic accounting going on. And it had his net worth at 0 in 2000. By 2008, he'd had his net worth all the way up to a whopping $53,000. There's a guy -- if you want to take shots at Marco Rubio, find another way to do it, because it certainly isn't his lavish lifestyle. They show a picture of his house. It's a nice house, but it's a modest house. They show a picture of his boat. It's a small fishing boat.

Geraldo's boat dwarfs that. If Geraldo's boat came by Marco Rubio's boat, then Marco Rubio's boat would flip over.

GUILFOYLE: OK, so The New York Times, this is their quote: "He splurged on an extravagant purchase: $80,000 for a luxury speedboat." Show the picture. Again viewer disclaimer. This is not actually Marco Rubio's boat, but this is one that resembles it and is the same make and model.

What do you think? Does this look like big time?

RIVERA: It's not a luxury boat in the lexicon of the yacht clubs where I - - I am sometimes allowed.

GUILFOYLE: It was Hillary Clinton's boat, they would say, "That's a charming little dinghy" or something like that.

RIVERA: It's a life boat for the higher rollers in the Republican Party. And I think that, though, the business man that you are, Eric, wouldn't you worry about him being president if he can't finance his own finances, if he's broke? How can he be so broke?

BOLLING: Of course. He's making $80,000 a year until he entered the Senate. He makes $174,000. Education, insurance, everything.

Look, you know who I begrudge? I don't begrudge Marco Rubio. I begrudge the Harry Reids and the other hundreds of senators and Congress people who make 174 grand a year and end up with $53 million by the time they leave.

RIVERA: Like the presidents of Mexico.

BOLLING: That's right.

GUILFOYLE: Dana.

PERINO: I would say I do think this helps Rubio but for another reason. These stories were going to come out anyway. It's better to have it now in June of 2015, when nobody is really paying attention to the election. By the time the election actually comes around, if he's still in the contest, this will be old news.

GUILFOYLE: But this is, like, all -- this is all they got? Shows me, one, they're concerned about him. They're paying attention, right?

PERINO: I think it's boredom, you know. It's a little bit of boredom and laziness on behalf of the media, yes.

GUTFELD: So with no one's perfect. For Rubio it's finance. For Bill Clinton, it's no pants. He has this fishing boat. In terms of water offenses, that's not Chappaquiddick.

He's not -- he's the perfect anti-politician. He didn't try to fix his tickets, and he didn't try to get any sweetheart loans in order to pay off stuff. Unlike Obama, Rubio has no Tony Rezko, you know, a very -- a long- time political benefactor that helps you out.

Also, the New York Times -- I love this -- goes after a guy who paid off his student loans, Marco Rubio, while publishing a jackass named Lee Siegel, who told people to default on their loans, which is basically telling people to ruin their credit. So that's idiotic.

The final hypocrisy is, if you're rich, you're evil. But now if you're poor, you're just pathetic. So what's it going to be?

BOLLING: And Republican.

PERINO: And making bad choices, because the boat was too expensive.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: As if the New York Times has any bearing or say on what people should buy.

RIVERA: What would you do if your wife got 14 of the 17 speeding tickets?

PERINO: Get a driver.

GUTFELD: Yes. I don't know. I can't -- I'm a hypocrite. I let my license expire. So it's my fault, because she's been driving me around.

GUILFOYLE: No. You'd be like flirt better, duh.

GUTFELD: That's sexist, Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Who cares? You want this ticket?

GUTFELD: I can lift my shirt. I don't get off -- well, yes, I do.

GUILFOYLE: No one wants to see that. Trust me.

GUTFELD: It's just a scar.

BOLLING: I'd give you a pass.

GUILFOYLE: New developments on the intense hunt for two escaped killers. A female prison worker is reportedly being questioned. Did she help them? Ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RIVERA: We're just getting this FOX News alert. We are hearing that the McKinney, Texas, Corporal Eric Casebolt -- is that his name? -- has resigned from the police department, as he has been intensely criticized for drawing that gun on the teenager. So he has resigned. Where this goes from there...

BOLLING: Per Reuters.

RIVERA: Per Reuters. Reuters is the source. Reuters news agency.

GUTFELD: The German fellow.

RIVERA: So it is raining and miserable, the height of black fly season in upstate New York, where it is day four of the search for two extremely dangerous fugitives who drilled their way out of that maximum security prison up there.

The latest reports have police converged on a town about 30 miles away from Dannemora, where the prison is after a tip on a possible sighting. Two witnesses saying they came face-to-face with the killers. They told their story to "Good Morning America."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The one guy had a -- he had a guitar on his back. The guitar case. And...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A guitar case?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A black guitar case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I look at him. And I say, I ask him, "What the hell are you doing in my yard? Get the hell out of here."

And he was like, "Sorry, I don't -- I didn't know where I was. I'm on the wrong street."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERA: We're talking about those witnesses, but cops have also confirmed that they have questioned this female police worker, Joyce Mitchell, the lady who ran the tailor shop there where she worked with these two convicts, saying that she may have helped them break free.

Do you think, Kimberly, that she did? That she snuck the saw in the -- a pie?

GUILFOYLE: I don't know about that. But do I think they had help? For sure. Do I think, if they're releasing this information, she was probably involved and assisted them in some way? Sure seems like it. Otherwise, this information would not be out there.

So I've seen this happen in maximum security prisons, where inmates are able to gain the favor -- can't believe the things they do and to say -- of somebody they consider to be susceptible to their charms and influence to try to get them to help, whether it's, OK, get...

RIVERA: Well, a jail break is one thing.

GUILFOYLE: Escaping is a big deal but also to get favors or privileges or help conceal stuff in their cell, slip them in items. This does happen.

BOLLING: This couldn't have been inside the cell, though. This had to be -- someone had to cut -- look. They cut through two cells that were adjacent cells.

Right.

GUILFOYLE: Into a 24-inch steel pipe, which is steel pipe. They had to cut through that, two of them. I got a hunch that maybe it didn't happen from inside in the cell.

GUILFOYLE: I think there's more people involved.

BOLLING: Someone else cut the pipe so that they could break their way through the cell and get out. Those are big saws it would take to cut that.

RIVERA: But Dana, don't you think it is -- it strains credulity to think that they went through this elaborate scheme to get out, to cut out. They got through the steel door. They got through the mortar and bricks. They cut through the sewer pipe. They cut open the manhole to escape and then not have somebody waiting for them to whisk them away someplace?

PERINO: I would imagine that the desire to be free and to be out of jail is such that maybe you would try to get out and not have a plan on the other side. But this is so -- their thinking is so far away from me I can't really put myself in their shoes.

GUTFELD: Way to cover for them. Where are you keeping them?

PERINO: In your basement.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: Among the others.

GUILFOYLE: Getting crowded.

RIVERA: Do you think they would lash out at the people who snitched them out? Or do you think all they want to do is go to Mexico and sip margaritas?

GUTFELD: I think they're very dangerous. That's No. 1. They're going to kill anybody. Because this is it for them.

PERINO: That's right.

GUTFELD: The irony of prison is that it takes years and years and years to plan an elaborate escape, but all you have is years and years and years. So this is -- it goes hand in hand that they have been doing this, and it was well-planned. And I can't foresee this ending well. I think that they're here -- they're going to kill their way out of this, or they're going to get killed.

RIVERA: You can't kill your way out. You can get killed.

GUTFELD: Yes.

RIVERA: Suicide by cop. So -- but the whole thing about the femme fatale helping them out. You know?

GUILFOYLE: I do -- I do buy it. I've seen it. When I prosecuted that dog mauling case...

RIVERA: Oh, right. I remember that.

GUILFOYLE: ... remember that the Aryan Brotherhood got a woman, Janet Combs, that they, you know, worked their charm on her. And she was helping them run, essentially, like, an illegal dog breeding business where the Aryan Brotherhood was running dogs for the Mexican mafia. And this was all being conducted out of Pelican State Prison. I mean, you can't get more wild than that.

RIVERA: This seems most like that situation in Pennsylvania with the survivalist.

"One More Thing" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: All right. It's time now for "One More Thing." And Greg is first.

GUTFELD: All right. It's time for...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: "Greg's Robot News"!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: All right. It's been going all over the place on the web, these pictures of these poor robots falling over.

GUILFOYLE: My God.

GUTFELD: I want to -- I want to talk about this. Because people are laughing at these robots for their clumsiness. Well, laugh and laugh and laugh. This is all a cover.

The robots want you to think that they're incompetent in order to kind of lull you into a false sense of complacency? Is that the word? And then they're going to take over and enslave us all, and we're going to have no choice.

Ha ha ha. Look at that. You know what? He's laughing at us right for. Look at this guy. Is had he going to fall over? Yes, yes. They just keep falling over.

PERINO: How did you find this video?

GUTFELD: I found it. I didn't really find it. Somebody found it for me.

RIVERA: He found it in a Google self-driving...

PERINO: You have robots that find it for you?

GUTFELD: Yes, I do.

PERINO: There you go. My point.

GUILFOYLE: You've been watching too many "Terminator" movies.

GUTFELD: Not enough.

PERINO: All right. Kimberly, you're next.

GUILFOYLE: Last night I was doing something sensible with my time, which was watching Greta, "On the Record." And she had somebody that caught my eye.

He is an openly gay GOP candidate by the name of Chris Kefalas, and he wants to run for the U.S. Senate in Maryland. He's an attorney. He's worked at the DOJ, and he worked for the former GOP governor in Maryland. He's got a very impressive background.

He also talks about Mosby and how they handled everything in Baltimore, which I agree with. Here's this young GOP hopeful, "On the Record" last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST, "ON THE RECORD": You are openly gay. Does the Republican Party have a bigger tent on those issues now?

CHRIS KEFALAS (R), MARYLAND SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think we're in a good position to run a different type of Republican campaign in Maryland and win. People want to see someone who's pro-economic growth, pro-jobs and moving our country and state forward the best way possible. And it doesn't matter who I am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: All right. So I think he makes a case well for himself. This is somebody who's an exciting one to watch for the GOP's big tent.

PERINO: There were three gay candidates in 2014, Carl DeMaio being one of them. John Boehner raised over $1 million for him. So I think that one...

GUILFOYLE: You wrote about this.

PERINO: I did write about it on FOXNews.com. I did.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, see?

PERINO: Nice plug. Eric.

BOLLING: All right, good. OK. So after 26 years of marital bliss, there's terrible news in the world of marriage. Marge and Homer Simpson will be splitting up. Splitsville.

RIVERA: Oh, man.

BOLLING: The E.P., Al -- of "The Simpsons," Al Jean, told "Vanity Fair" today that next season's premier, they're going to break up. But that prompted Whoopi Goldberg to tweet this. She tweets to Homer Simpson, "What the hell? Homer and Marge are separating after 26 seasons."

So I went back and I read the comment that they made. I'm not sure that's not a sexist thing that Whoopee just tweeted, blaming Homer. Because it says, it's discovered after all the years Homer has narcolepsy. And it's an incredible strain on the marriage. Homer and Marge legally separate. Homer happens to fall in love with a pharmacist after that.

But Marge, what kind of person are you to leave Homer when he's suffering from narcolepsy? So I'm going to blame...

GUILFOYLE: You know they're going to get back together, right?

BOLLING: I'm going to blame Marge, not Homer.

PERINO: All right. Geraldo.

RIVERA: Vincent Bugliosi died over the weekend, his family confirmed. He wrote the best-selling real-life crime book of all time, "Helter Skelter," based on his successful prosecution of Charles Manson. We share Manson in common. I interviewed the notorious cult killer in San Quentin. Yuck.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERA: Why did those girls murder for you? Why did they...

CHARLES MANSON, CONVICTED FOR MASS MURDERS: They didn't murder for me.

RIVERA: You told them to.

MANSON: No, no, no, no. Come back, D.A. Come back. That's not reality.

RIVERA: What is?

MANSON: No. Reality is they did what they did. They're responsible for their own actions. I'm responsible for my actions.

RIVERA: Ever kill anybody?

MANSON: I've come awful close a few times.

RIVERA: Why didn't you?

MANSON: Where do you come "why didn't you," man? I ain't lying to you. If you think I'm lying to you, you're wasting my time and your time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERA: Bugliosi proved that those people killed for Charlie.

PERINO: Kind of interesting. Very interesting.

All right. I'm going to plug a new book. It is by Guy Benson and Mary Katherine Ham. It's called "End of Discussion: How the Left's Outrage Industry Shuts Down Debate, Manipulates Voters and Makes America Less Free." And finally, I had a chance to read it. These are FOX News contributors, as well. I think you'll probably like the book. And you can't miss it. Right? Look at that cover.

All right. Set your DVRs so you never miss an episode of "The Five." That's it for us. "Special Report" is next.

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