Did the Duggars properly handle Josh's confession?

close

Video

Did the Duggars properly handle Josh's confession?

Debate over pastoral counseling on 'Hannity'

This is a rush transcript from "Hannity," June 5, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

SEAN HANNITY, HOST: Welcome to "Hannity." Tonight, the Duggars are under fire after the release of the information that oldest son, Josh, molested four of his sisters and a family friend over a decade ago. Now two of Josh's sisters, Jill and Jessa, opened up to Megyn Kelly about what happened just moments ago in an exclusive interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSA (DUGGAR) SEEWALD, SISTER: I can say that, you know? I was one of the victims, so I can speak out and I can this and set the record straight here. Like, in Josh's case, he was a boy, a young boy in puberty, and little too curious about girls. And that got him into some trouble. And he made some bad choices, but really, the extent of it was mild, inappropriate touching on fully clothed victims.

JILL (DUGGAR) DILLARD, SISTER: For me, even when my parents came and sat down and told me this, I was, like, Really? Like, you know, I'm sad. I'm shocked at the same time. Like Jessa was saying, I was shocked.

SEEWALD: When we were doing the IDHS (ph) investigation and they're, you know, asking you to tell your story, that's probably -- I mean, it's one thing to talk to Mom and Dad and say, Wow, OK, this happened, you know? But it's another thing when a complete stranger is, like, Tell me your story here. And so...

DILLARD: And our parents told us. They said, you know, they -- we all went down there. They took us down there, and they said, We're going to share what happened here, and they told us -- our parents told us, you know, be completely open and honest.

SEEWALD: They're here to help you, you know?

SEEWALD: We were pretty serious (ph).

(CROSSTALK)

DILLARD: ... and I was in tears. I couldn't believe what was going on! (INAUDIBLE) Whenever I heard the police report had been released, I said (INAUDIBLE) they can't do this to us!

DILLARD: You know, whatever choices -- whatever thing they may say, you know, legally, we can do this and we can do that. It's, like, it's obviously not -- like, they're not protecting us.

DILLARD: I see it as a re- victimization (INAUDIBLE) a thousand times worse!

MEGYN KELLY, HOST, "THE KELLY FILE": Why?

DILLARD: Because this is something that was already dealt with.  We've already forgiven Josh. We've already moved on. Everything was distorted. And so we feel like our story was not being told. And we felt like it shouldn't have been told. The victims are the only ones who can speak for themselves.

And so now that it's has already been warped and told however they want to portray it, then we felt like that's why Jess and I wanted to come out and just say, like, That's not what happened. We've dealt with it.  We've taken care of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: Wow.

Joining us with reaction, Fox News contributor Dr. Robert Jeffress, and from the Fox News medical A-Team, Dr. Keith Ablow is with us.

Dr. Ablow, let me start with this line that the sister is making, the release of the police report -- I see it as re-victimization here, which is a thousand times worse. Was that a mistake? In other words, if they didn't want it out -- they're the victims in this case -- did they have a right not to have this released?

DR. KEITH ABLOW, FOX CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I don't know what the legal standing is, but I would say it was improper to release the report.

Now, on the other hand, the victims don't have the only voices here because Josh Duggar at that time was a pedophile, and there are other people who may come in contact with him, may have come in contact with him and may come in contact with him. And the family hasn't provided anything like a reassuring story about treatment that would alleviate those concerns.

HANNITY: But they did send him to treatment!

ABLOW: So they're not concerned, but I am.

HANNITY: But they did send him for treatment and they did report it to the police department. Was that not the proper course of action? To me, that seemed like the proper course of action.

ABLOW: Well, as I understand it, they sent him for treatment to not psychiatrists, not psychologists necessarily. They don't really expand upon it. It's an older man, apparently, who had him do some carpentry with him. They were part of an organization that says that they heal folks.  But listen, this is serious business, Sean.

HANNITY: I agree.

ABLOW: They didn't -- you know, they didn't say that they went to friends' of Josh's to find out, Hey, do they have younger sister? Has anyone else been hurt? And the naivete expressed by the parents -- and the girls, by the way, just now -- that this is all about them, they're somehow being persecuted -- no, you did the wrong thing. You didn't safeguard the community. I don't know that you safeguarded your kids because there are 19 of them, and apparently...

HANNITY: But they told the police -- wait. But they told the police everything.

ABLOW: Well, I don't know if they told the police everything...

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: I can only listen to what they said. They said the told the police everything at the instruction of their parents, Don't hold back.  They want to help. So are you blaming law enforcement then, they should have taken this to a different level?

ABLOW: Well, right now, my comments are reserved for the Duggar family itself. They haven't given an cogent explanation of treatment rendered their son. They say that he was never a pedophile, but the definition fits him. His sisters say that they were touched only above their clothes. The Duggars themselves, the parents...

HANNITY: But they also said they didn't remember it, right?

ABLOW: They also say they didn't remember it, and their parents say, No, it was also below clothes for some of the victims.

And I -- Sean, the whole scenario doesn't wash with me. I don't know of any four people who can be sleeping and touched inappropriately, or five if you include the baby-sitter, and not know it. What kind of story is this? It doesn't even make sense!

HANNITY: Pastor, let me go to you. I think you hear criticism a little bit from Dr. Ablow about the chosen level of treatment. Is pastoral counseling enough, especially because they did make a police report? Now, I understand that...

PASTOR ROBERT JEFFRESS, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, look...

HANNITY: Go ahead.

JEFFRESS: Well, full disclosure here, Sean. I know the Duggars.  They worship in my church whenever they come to Dallas. I think they're a wonderful family. And I don't pretend to know everything that happened.  No one does.

But here's what we know for sure from this interview tonight. Look, these girls admit they were abused by Josh. They say they have forgiven him. They love him. They want to get on with their lives.

And yet there are some people, even in the world of counseling, who just can't accept that. They say, Oh, you're in denial. You have to be a perennial victim. You can't be healed from this.

Well, the gospel message that this family embraces says that through the power of God's grace and going through the proper steps of forgiveness, you don't have to be a victim forever. You can get on with your lives.

And your question is, Does this work? Let me just say this. Does it work? Whatever happened, Josh has not been accused of anything in the last 12 years. He has his own family. The girls are saying this is just like breaking a scab off a wound that already healed. Why are we re-victimizing these girls?

HANNITY: Dr. Ablow?

ABLOW: Well, Sean, the church hasn't always been perfect in its treatment of pedophiles, has it. And so while pastoral counseling can be tremendously valuable, I'm not sure that it's a comprehensive way to address pedophilia, number one.

Number two, what -- this is a great family? This is a family who turned their family into a sideshow, who invited cameras into their lives in a way that exploited their children and made money from them. Where's the wonderful family that the pastor is describing?

HANNITY: Pastor?

JEFFRESS: Yes, well, I'll tell you where it is. I will tell you this...

ABLOW: Yes, where is it?

JEFFRESS: ... for sure from knowing the Duggars. Let me tell you.  They love their girls more than any of us on this panel do and certainly more than the left do. And I'm tired of the hypocrisy of the left...

ABLOW: This isn't a political issue.

JEFFRESS: ... and these crocodile tears...

ABLOW: I'm a conservative!

JEFFRESS: No, I'm saying -- it is. There are people who hate...

ABLOW: No, it isn't.

JEFFRESS: ... the values of the Duggars. Yes, there are. And look...

ABLOW: I wouldn't turn my family into a reality show. I hate those values.

JEFFRESS: But that's your judgment! That is your judgment. That is their choice as parents...

(CROSSTALK)

ABLOW: Well, apparently, you would.

JEFFRESS: I heard you yesterday...

ABLOW: Apparently, you would.

JEFFRESS: ... criticizing the number of children! The number -- you were criticizing the number of children they have. That is none of your you-know-what business how many children...

ABLOW: I think...

(CROSSTALK)

ABLOW: I think, obviously, if you're going to have...

JEFFRESS: No, it's not your business!

ABLOW: If you're going to have 19 children...

JEFFRESS: It's not your business!

ABLOW: If you're going to have 19 children, you should supervise them well. And another thing. These parents say that they didn't let their children hold hands...

JEFFRESS: Can you control your children all the time?

ABLOW: These parents...

JEFFRESS: I sure can't control mine children all the time!

ABLOW: Hold on a second! Can I talk, Pastor, please?

JEFFRESS: Certainly.

ABLOW: These parents say that they didn't let their children hold hands until they were engaged? That's bizarre. Can't we just call it what it is? It's bizarre, controlling, manipulative...

JEFFRESS: That is their choice!

ABLOW: It's bizarre.

JEFFRESS: Do you hear the children bitter about it? Are they saying this was a terrible thing? I just saw two very happy and well-adjusted girls. I mean, that is their business! It is none of your business, Doctor, to get involved with the choices these parents make!

ABLOW: Well, sure it is because they are a public family. They decided to become an entertainment event...

JEFFRESS: That doesn't give you a right...

ABLOW: ... instead of a family.

JEFFRESS: ... to try to run their lives! Just because you watch them or don't watch them on TV doesn't give you a right to decide...

ABLOW: Listen, I...

JEFFRESS: ... how they conduct their lives, Doctor!

ABLOW: I'm not attempting to run their lives, but when a 15-year- old...

JEFFRESS: You're trying to tell them how many children to have!

ABLOW: When a 15-year-old man touches...

JEFFRESS: A 15-year-old man?

ABLOW: ... girls inappropriately -- when a 15-year-old teenager touches girls inappropriately...

JEFFRESS: OK.

ABLOW: ... and then his parents tell me, By the way, when he's dating girls, he's not allowed to hold their hands, I say, Gee, I wonder if he's repressed, Pastor.

JEFFRESS: No, he confessed that. And by the way, talking about licensed therapists -- by the way, my daughter's a counselor -- they said they...

ABLOW: Congratulations.

JEFFRESS: ... took their girls to a licensed therapist -- they took their girls to licensed counselors. And so I think...

ABLOW: I need to know what those counselors...

JEFFRESS: ... they did get the treatment...

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: Guys, we got to...

JEFFRESS: It's none of your business, Doctor!

HANNITY: We got to take a break.

JEFFRESS: It's none of your business what counselor they (INAUDIBLE)

ABLOW: Pastor, we're here as experts.

HANNITY: All right, both...

ABLOW: You got to try to control yourself.

(CROSSTALK)

ABLOW: You might need a session with me.

HANNITY: Coming up next tonight, right here on "Hannity"...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER: I think the big picture is protecting juveniles' records. And I think that's something that we want to be an advocate for protecting juvenile records because the mistakes that juveniles make when they're young should be sealed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: We'll have more on Megyn's explosive interview with the Duggar family. We'll examine those lingering legal questions.

And then later, a Chicago pastor is now calling on Republicans to clean up the mess that Democrats have left behind in his city. He'll be here to explain those comments.

Plus, the mainstream media continues to attack Pam Geller. She is here tonight to respond to the ISIS men in Boston, affiliated, that wanted to behead her, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER: Parents are not mandatory reporters. You are -- the law allows for parents to do what they think's best for their child.

No victim wants their record, or their minor story to be told. Every victim should have the right to tell their own story, not a tabloid.

I think the big picture is protecting juveniles' records, and I think that's something that we want to be an advocate for protecting juvenile records because the mistakes that juveniles make when they're young should be sealed.

Joshua was actually 14 and just turned 15 when he did what he did, and I think the legal definition is 16 and up for being an adult preying on a child.

This information was released illegally, and so I'm wondering why all of this press is not going after the system for releasing the juvenile records. That is a huge story, that what our son did 12 years ago is -- I'm sure it's major story to them, too, but yet hopefully, justice will be served on the ones that release juvenile records to protect other juveniles from their records being released.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: That was another clip from Megyn Kelly's exclusive interview with the Duggar family. Tonight, there are still plenty of legal questions surrounding the family's story.

We still continue with Dr. Robert Jeffress and Dr. Keith Ablow.  Joining us now with legal reaction is criminal defense attorney -- Mark Eiglarsh is with us.

Mark, let me -- in the last segment, we played one of his sisters, Josh's sisters, who was a victim here, who said it was a thousand times worse by releasing these juvenile records, that this had been dealt with, that they had forgiven their brother, et cetera. And you hear the parents, the father in this case making the case that those records shouldn't have been released.

Your reaction from a legal standpoint.

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Solely legally, they are correct. Morally, it's great to know everything about everyone, but legally, under Arkansas law -- and by the way, a judge already found recently in Arkansas that they were unlawfully disclosed to people and that it should be destroyed.

Now, the Arkansas law makes it very clear that the law enforcement agencies shall not -- meaning must not, under any circumstances -- disclose to the public the identity of any sex crime victim.

Now, the argument is, Well, we didn't. We redacted. We took a Sharpie and we crossed out some information. But these girls didn't come forward. We know their identity because the report made it clear who it was.

HANNITY: Mark, is there legal liability for them here?

EIGLARSH: It's going to be very difficult because you have the city attorney saying, Oh, you know, it's a close call. We have attorney general's opinion saying something different, I interpret it a different way. Go ahead and do it.

I think, candidly, the went under the reality star exception. They said, You know what? Here's a guy, for some reason we want to let everyone know about this, and we're just going to let it loose. I think it's a bad policy for the future.

HANNITY: What about, though, the right of the rest of the community that know -- to know that somebody that has this -- that acts this way is living amongst them? Don't they have the right to know to protect themselves?

EIGLARSH: Yes, I'm one of those people. I want to know every single person who's ever preyed on a child. That's on one side of the scale. The other side of the scale is you have an investigation that I believe started as a juvenile. The other side's arguing, Well, it began when he was 18 in 2006. I think it began in 2003, when he was a 14, 15-year-old boy and went into the police station...

HANNITY: All right...

EIGLARSH: ... and confessed what he did to law enforcement. We cannot have things that are told when someone's a juvenile...

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: Did the parents legally handle this the right way -- legally? Did the parents, by going to the police, handle it properly?

EIGLARSH: The answer is it depends. I'm not convinced, first of all, what the facts are. If we're going to -- your question presupposes what they say is actually true, that they did go to law enforcement...

HANNITY: Well, they didn't hide it from law enforcement. They haven't to go to law enforcement, did they?

EIGLARSH: Well, I think that, morally, they clearly should have.  Legally, I think that technically, they did the right thing. They did go in...

HANNITY: All right...

EIGLARSH: ... if they really did, you know, speak with a trooper who later turned out to be, you know, Mr. Creepazoid, 56 years in prison...

HANNITY: Let me go back to Dr. Ablow. And you want -- you think that these records should be released and you think the community does have a right to know, even if it is a case of a juvenile.

ABLOW: No, no, no. Not at all. I think it's wrong to release juvenile records. I think they have, however, been released.

And what my comments were regarding is the content of the interviews so far just don't make sense. This is a family that doesn't understand the definition of pedophilia. They think their son does not qualify for that definition, when, in fact, if you're 16 and sexually developed and you're preying upon undeveloped pre-pubescent girls, then you do qualify.  Secondly...

HANNITY: And one of the sisters was very young and -- but I don't think it makes a difference. In any case, though, clothes or not, I think it still falls under that definition, right?

ABLOW: Absolutely. It definitely falls under that definition. And look, they waited -- if I understand the facts correctly, they waited a good long time to tell authorities. Is that because they didn't want a youth services or social services investigation of their family that would have asked lots of questions and looked very deeply?

HANNITY: Yes, that's a good question. Let me go to Dr. Jeffress.  Dr. Jeffress, in that sense, knowing this background, did the family make a mistake by -- did they exacerbate it, perhaps, by having a reality television show on top of all this?

JEFFRESS: Look, if I were giving advice to the Duggars right now -- and I'm not, but if I were, I would tell them they need to go home and they need to heal as a family. Forget the cameras, and they need to heal as a family. And frankly, again, that's their choice to make. That would be my pastoral counsel.

But you know, on this law issue, Sean, it's easy to say, yes, a 14- year-old ought to be turned over to the police, law enforcement should be called. It's easy to say that if you're talking about somebody else's child. But if we're talking about our child, I understand. I think most viewers would understand...

EIGLARSH: But hold on...

(CROSSTALK)

JEFFRESS: ... their desire to try to bring about healing.

EIGLARSH: But it wasn't just their own family members.

JEFFRESS: And the good news...

(CROSSTALK)

JEFFRESS: We don't know that they didn't talk to this family and work that out with them. We don't know all of the details.

(CROSSTALK)

JEFFRESS: But whatever they did has worked with Josh.

HANNITY: Mark?

EIGLARSH: Yes. Listen...

ABLOW: We don't know that.

EIGLARSH: ... it wasn't just the family. And I would say this.  There were so many instances that he becomes a danger. There's a problem there. And who knows whether it's just restricted. The parents -- he told his parents every one he ever touched? I think at some point, it becomes such a problem.

HANNITY: All right...

EIGLARSH: The cancer metaphorically is what's going on in his head, and the symptoms are that he's reaching out and touching people.

HANNITY: All right, guys, we got to run.

EIGLARSH: I think that people should have been called sooner.

HANNITY: Thank you all for a fascinating debate, really important questions here.

And coming up next tonight here on "Hannity"...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER: So much grief in our hearts. I think as parents, we felt, Oh, we're failures! You know, here we tried to raise our kids to do what's right, to know what's right, and yet one of our children made some really bad choices.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: All right, when we come back, more on the exclusive Duggars interview. And up next, we'll ask our panel if the family should be forgiven.

And then later, a Chicago pastor -- he's calling out Democrats for failing his city. The pastor and Milwaukee County sheriff David Clarke are here with reaction.

Plus, the mainstream media is once again blaming Pam Geller for the actions of radical jihadists. She is here tonight to respond to the latest attacks as we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM BOB DUGGAR: He went in and said he had done this. And so we, first off, of course, really talked to him, and then we went and talked to all the girls.

MICHELLE DUGGAR: There was so much grief in our hearts. I think as parents, we felt, Oh, we're failures! You know, here we tried to raise our kids to do what's right, to know what's right, and yet one of our children made some really bad choices. And I think as a parent, we were just -- we were devastated.

JIM BOB DUGGAR: I think as parents, you feel like a failure when one of your kids does something wrong. You feel like, if I'd have done more training or maybe something else, that this wouldn't have happened.

It was a very difficult situation, but as we talk to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they've had similar things happen in their families. And so, I mean, this is -- for us, of course, this is public shame that our son did this back 12, 13 years ago.

MICHELLE DUGGAR: We definitely put safeguards in our home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. And we also talked to our daughters and reminded them about wrong and right touch, and about if anybody ever touched you in a wrong way, for you to come and tell your Mom and Dad.

MICHELLE DUGGAR: Immediately, you tell them (INAUDIBLE) that you have a safe place to share your heart.

JIM BOB DUGGAR: It was an important step for Josh to confess to the police what he had done because he had broken the law. And we felt like if we didn't do this that this would be something hanging over his head the rest of his life.

And when they asked us to do the reality TV show, all this had been taken care of five years before and we had a clean bill of health from the state. We had you've gone through counseling. You told the police.

MICHELLE DUGGAR: In our hearts before God, we haven't been keeping secrets! We have been protecting those that honestly should be protected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: Now, after admitting their mistakes and seeking out help for their son, Josh, and his sisters, should the Duggars be forgiven and understood in some way?

Here with reaction, "Outnumbered" co-host Andrea Tantaros, Fox News contributor Tammy Bruce.

This is a -- this is a complicated issue on a lot of different levels here. You got 19 kids. You have this event happened. They tell the police. They get the counseling, and then five years pass, clean bill of health, and they get a reality show.

What are your thoughts, maybe from a legal point of view from you?

TAMMY BRUCE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, look, I think that there's a lot of kind of cognitive dissonance here because there are so many different fronts because it's unusual anyway. You've got a family that lives its life in public.

I mean, we're on television almost every day to comment on news of the day. But here they have a family, where who they are is what makes them operate. And then you've got our society's reaction to reality TV, really being engaged with these individuals, because celebrity moves you into a different realm.

And I think that that's part of what the issue is because in part of the interview, they say, Look, no family is perfect, and that's true. None of us are. And yet they're suddenly elevated into a celebrity family framework, and I think that's why this kind of departure from what we would consider a moral norm is so difficult.

HANNITY: Is some of the intensity of the hatred that I have seen against them -- is it because they were so open about religion and Christianity and faith?

ANDREA TANTAROS, "OUTNUMBERED" CO-HOST: For sure.

HANNITY: There's been a lot.

TANTAROS: Yes, for sure. And I agree with everything Tammy said. I mean, they weren't a famous family because of wealth or because they had a particular skill like fishing and they kept the family values off to the side. They made that the touchstone of the entire series. So I agree with everything you said.

But here's my issue. Their son was a lobbyist for the Family Research Council as recently as 2013.

HANNITY: And he was fired.

TANTAROS: And he was fired. But here's my point. If you're going to have this secret that you keep, do you really allow or encourage or have your son assume that position? And I say that because I'm all for forgiveness, but really, Sean, when you look at what the research council stands for and how they get involved in politics and how they select candidates...

HANNITY: Did they know?

TANTAROS: It's not up to the Family Research Council. It's up to Josh and it's up to his parents. And that is what I -- I do have a little bit of an issue there. That may not have been the best role for him.

HANNITY: Is the family saying that after the counseling and reporting to the police that from their point of view, and getting the seal of approval of the state, that they wanted to put that issue behind them? I mean, the two sisters that were on tonight on Megyn's show, you know, they said this is a thousand times worse that this was released. This is re- victimization. Those are their terms.

BRUCE: Well, but you know, I think that when -- in any situation, whether it's the "John and Kate Plus 8" situation and that horrible divorce in public with so many minor children, the Kardashians, the situation with now adult children dealing with their father and what he's going through, you know, this dynamic -- when you're bring minor children into a world that is not normal from the beginning -- and you've touched on this in the reality situation framework -- I think that that is -- speaks to the mentality of the family as a whole.

And Americans -- because I do believe that Christians -- I don't identify as a Christian. I believe in God. And I think it's particularly important for those of us outside that realm to recognize it when it's happening. They are being attacked in some way because of that, but they're also celebrities.

HANNITY: But isn't there a lack of understanding of Christianity?  Isn't the whole point of Christianity is that we're all sinners and we need forgiveness and that you need salvation?

BRUCE: Well, you get that in church, yes, but not on television, not when it's a fantasy...

(CROSSTALK)

TANTAROS: Well, in the court of public opinion, and that's why when you said, Can they be forgiven -- I mean, I think Tammy would probably agree and you would agree it's not my job to forgive the Duggars. I mean, it's God's job to forgive, and I'm sure they would agree with that as well.

HANNITY: Doesn't this go to a heart, though? You go back to the child stars that we watched -- not you. You're young. And so many were messed up. Isn't fame unhealthy? It's unhealthy for adults. For kids I think it is doubly unhealthy.

TANTAROS: It is and it can be, but this also happens in households where people aren't famous. But here's my issue. You have, and Sarah Palin, made this point, you have Lena Dunham who is celebrated, who admitted in her book, and, by the way, has not had a big mea culpa or really profoundly apologized for this, for molesting her young sister. And the things she did to her sister are pretty graphic. I know the liberal media doesn't bother anyone's books and it took someone at Breitbart to crack when she put it out there. But her sister forgave her. She had her sister put out a statement saying I forgave her. She is now an out-of-the- closet lesbian. But instead Lena Dunham is celebrated, and I do think there is a huge double standard.

HANNITY: Because they are Christian, really. You are not a Christian and you agree with the double standard.

BRUCE: I agree. And I think when you look at bias, you have the celebrity aspects, and then you do have, and this is the warning for every viewer, is that you have got a framework of the establishment, the left, that decides what the narrative is and who we're going to judge. And this should bother every American, and they can reject the narrative. They can reject the premise.

And look, this should be a kind of private thing that would be happening to the Duggars or any other family. It is public. It's an opportunity to discuss family responsibility --

HANNITY: Was it a mistake for them to take the show in light of what went on behind the scenes?

BRUCE: I think when they are raising two children, one child, let alone 19, I think moving people into reality TV in today's modern world is a mistake.

HANNITY: Bad idea. You agree with that?

TANTAROS: I think it is risky and I do think it was a bit naive of them to think that this would have never come out.

HANNITY: All right, guys, great comments. Thanks for being with us.

Coming up, you're going to meet the African-American pastor who says that some minorities feel the Democratic Party has not been loyal to them.  We are going to talk about that. And then coming later tonight right here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Are you stoking the flames? Do you on some level relish being the target of these attacks?

PAM GELLER: Relish being the target? Who self-promotes to get killed?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: Pam Geller continues to be attacked by the mainstream media.  She will be here tonight to respond and much more straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HANNITY: Welcome back to "Hannity." Now liberals have been quick to attack the police and blame Republicans for the problems related to race in this country. But one Chicago pastor has had enough of this liberal hypocrisy and he is quoted as saying that, quote, "African-Americans have been loyal to the Democratic Party, but there's a group of African- Americans that feel like the Democratic Party has not been loyal to us."

Joining us now to explain what he means by all that, the very same pastor from the New Beginnings Church of Chicago, Pastor Corey Brooks is with us. Also joining us is Milwaukee Sheriff David Clarke and Baltimore City Councilman Karl Stokes is with us. Guys, welcome to the program.  Pastor Brooks, let me start with you. What did you mean by that?

PASTOR COREY BROOKS, NEW BEGINNINGS CHURCH OF CHICAGO: Well, all you have to do is look across America and inner cities across America and you're going to see some tremendous problems, the same problems over and over -- bad schools, no jobs, an infrastructure that is chaotic. And all of those cities that you look at, most of them are ran by Democrats. And we have been doing the same thing over and over and getting the same results. And I'm just saying that I believe we need to have competition, and competition will make a better place in our community.

HANNITY: Karl, I will go to you. You are in Baltimore. We saw what happened with the riots there, 40 year high for the month of May in terms of murders in that city. You had a lot of money given to you, stimulus money, $1.8 billion by the White House, spend $1 billion a year, I read, in education, and been run by Democrats for decades. It doesn't seem to be helping as an outsider looking in.

CARL STOKES, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCILMAN: I hear what you are saying, Sean. I think there is a pox on both houses, frankly, Democrat and Republican.

HANNITY: But in this case liberals have run these big cities that are high-crime areas and drug infested.

STOKES: So to your point --

HANNITY: I'm correct.

STOKES: You are always correct. We have this friendly conversation all the time, Sean. You are always correct.

Let me say that, and I said this on your show before, that the weight of what is happening in Baltimore is certainly on the elected officials in Baltimore, our leadership, including myself. It is on us that we have not invested in the communities that need us the most in this city.  And we are from these communities.

HANNITY: We have thrown plenty of money at the problem. Money hasn't worked. And there's got to be another answer. Sheriff Clarke, let's bring you in.

SHERIFF DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY, WISCONSIN: Sean, how are you doing?

HANNITY: Good, sir.

CLARKE: Look, a life under democrat policies, failed policies, destructive ideology has hit the black community with the force of a nuclear explosion. It has obliterated the black family. It has emasculated the black male, separated him from his children, kept their kids shackled to failing K-12 public schools in these urban ghettos, kept them mired in generational poverty and obscene rates of employment. In Milwaukee the black unemployment rate is 32 percent.         And so you look at this monolithic voting pattern, it's been a living hell. But I'm not going to give the Republicans a real pass on this either. What I try to tell people to do, or advise them, anyway, is adopt conservative philosophies like hard work, preparation, perseverance, love of God, love of country, personal responsibility. Start to think for yourself and then go out and vote. And I think that once they start to do that, they will know where their vote should go.

HANNITY: Pastor, I agree with the sheriff completely. I don't know if the government is the answer for anybody, to be honest. I think government often makes things worse. And I know that government policies haven't helped. We now have 46 million Americans on food stamps, 50 million in poverty, and 93 million Americans, pastor, out of the labor force. That is unacceptable. And a lot of them are minority. A lot of them are in inner city. Government hasn't helped them. How do we fix it?  How do we get people to take that responsibility that the sheriff is talking about?

BROOKS: Well, we've got to have all hands on deck. And it takes all of us as American citizens working together, collaborating to make the communities in the United States a much better place. We can't just continue down a path of destruction, continue down a path of doing the same thing and expecting that we're going to get different result. I agree with the sheriff that a lot of the things that we are seeing are a result of 50 years of just going the same way and getting the same thing. We have got to do something different. And that means we have to start thinking about our educational system, providing choice for school. We should be able to allow our tax dollars and allow our tax dollars to follow our children to any school, whether it's private, charter, or public. And I believe that is one of the first ways that we get out of poverty.

HANNITY: Let me ask you, councilman, why isn't Marilyn Mosby releasing the autopsy report? She has the ability to release that. We still don't know how and why Freddie Gray died. People have been indicted, six officers. She has that autopsy report. Why won't she release it?

STOKES: I'm not in her office. I have no idea. By the way, we haven't been throwing money at the problem because the money that has come in has not gone to people who need it. It's gone to big contractors. It's going to --

HANNITY: Where's did the $1.8 billion go that you got in stimulus money?

STOKES: It didn't go to the communities that need it. It went to the same people who were getting the money before the money came. They are not African-American. They do not live in poverty. They are not in these communities. You know the money doesn't go to those --

HANNITY: Are you saying that the kids can't succeed without the money from government, that they need more from government to make it? Aren't you spending over $1 billion a year on education in Baltimore?

STOKES: Most of the people on government welfare are not African- American. You know that, Sean. They are not --

HANNITY: I didn't say that. I am saying in Baltimore, specifically, and I'm saying they have $1 billion in education money, and I don't see things improving. And I see a murder rate that's gone through the roof.  Sheriff Clarke?

CLARKE: Sean, here's the way forward for the black community. The way forward is for the Democrat Party to get their boot off our neck, let us stand up, rebuild our family structure, develop a mindset of self- sufficiency, less reliance on government, pay more attention, better attention, I should say, to our kids. Give us real education reform. Let us do this ourselves. I believe if that's allowed to happen -- and it's going to take decades, don't get me wrong. But only self-sufficiency and less reliance on government is going to turn it around for the black community.

HANNITY: All right, thank you all for being with us, appreciate it.

And up next tonight on HANNITY --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Are you stoking the flames? Do you on some level relish being the target of these attacks?

GELLER: Relish being the target? Who self-promotes to get killed?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: Mainstream media goes after Pam Geller once again instead of the radical Islamists who are trying to kill her. Geller is here on the record to respond, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HANNITY: Welcome back to "Hannity." So soon after one Islamic terror suspect was killed in another arrest outside of Boston earlier this week, it was reported that the men were originally plotting to kill free speech activist Pam Geller in an ISIS style beheading. Naturally CNN's Erin Burnett took this as an opportunity to attack Pam instead of the radical jihadists. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: The Southern Poverty Law Center, as you are well aware, has described your group, the American Freedom Defense Initiative, as what they say, quote, "an active anti-Muslim group." They track hate groups in this country. They describe you as, quote, "The anti-Muslim movement's most visible and flamboyant figurehead." Again, they track hate groups. They are putting you on that list. Nothing justifies a beheading or beheading plot, but it's important to note this. I mean, are you stoking the flames?  Do you on some level relish being the target of these attacks?

GELLER: Relish being a target? Who self-promotes to get killed?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: Here now with reaction, author, columnist Pam Geller, and the director of the Islamic Society in Nevada, Imam Aslam Abdullah is with us. Let me go through this. The first point is, the Southern Poverty Law Center, didn't they have Ben Carson on their list, Dr. Ben Carson, who saved people's lives?

GELLER: The Southern Poverty Law Center is a smear machine. I don't know who on the left designated --

HANNITY: Are they radical Islamic groups on there?

GELLER: No. No radical Islamist groups.

HANNITY: OK, so they're a leftwing group.

GELLER: And Ben Carson, OK?

HANNITY: And the Family Research Council.

GELLER: Yes, who they tried to kill. And you know that one of their members killed three Muslims in a parking dispute in North Carolina.

HANNITY: Do you want to respond? "Relish being a target of a beheading." This guy, Rahim in Boston with two other people apparently put in writing they wanted to get you and behead you.

GELLER: Yes. This is projection. Somehow, Erin Burnett covets beheading. I can't imagine why anyone would self-promote to get themselves killed. If you're into self-promotion, trust me, Sean, you don't go into counter jihad work, because you're smeared, libeled, defamed, and your name is destroyed. In Muslim countries they kill you for blasphemy. In the west, they kill your name. They kill your good name. They assassinate your character. That is what we're seeing.

HANNITY: Imam, why does this keep coming up, the reaction by some in your faith to cartoons? Why does this keep coming up? Why can't --

IMAM ASLAM ABDULLAH, DIRECTOR OF THE ISLAMIC SOCIETY OF NEVADA:  Salaam, Hannity, and everyone here.

GELLER: Shalom.

ABDULLAH: And I pray that both of you stay safe and I pray that the one who gives and takes life protects both of you.

HANNITY: Why does this keep happening, though, in the name of your religion?

ABDULLAH: There are people who do all kinds of things in the name of religion.

HANNITY: This is in the name of your religion. This is happening in the name of Islam and Mohammed.

ABDULLAH: Please, Mr. Hannity. Let me explain it to you. Islam protects the life, and the Koran does not tell anyone to kill anyone if he or she blasphemes God or his messenger.

HANNITY: Excuse me.

ABDULLAH: Those who do that --

HANNITY: In Islamic countries aren't apostates, isn't the penalty for apostasism death?

GELLER: That is the problem of those countries who have those kind of problems. They can do whatever they want to do in the name of religion, and it is the responsibility of people like me and people who believe in the true Islam to stand up and say, and that is what we've been saying, that blasphemy is not punishable by death.

HANNITY: Pam?

ABDULLAH: We are saying apostasy is not punishable by death.

GELLER: One thing at a time. Koran 2-191, 489 and 953, "Slay nonbelievers wherever you find them."

ABDULLAH: Yes, yes.

GELLER: Let me speak. I let you speak the nonsense. You have to let me respond. Koran 47-4, "Whenever you meet the unbelievers, strike them at their necks." which is exactly what the jihadists in Boston wanted to do to me. The death penalty can result from blasphemy charges under the Sharia in Muslim majority countries like Afghanistan, like Iran, like Sudan, like the UAE. I can go on and on. And in many countries like Pakistan, you have Muslim mobs who lynch those that were accused with no proof as if, you know --

ABDULLAH: Exactly. And that is why --

HANNITY: We're almost out of time. Imam. Let me ask you. She quoted the Koran to you.

ABDULLAH: Yes. Yes.

HANNITY: Don't you interpret that as being violent?

ABDULLAH: No. No. Let me explain to you. Islam recognizes second amendment, that, we must understand. But Islam also puts restrictions on people in terms of when they attack us or when they aggress upon us. And, the Koran that you're quoting is in a historical context where the Muslim was under prosecution, were being killed, and they are asked to defend and they are asked to fight against those that are fighting against them.

GELLER: The violence in the Old Testament and New Testament is descriptive. The violence in the Koran is for all time and it is prescriptive. And Mohammed said "I have been made victorious through terror."

HANNITY: We've got to leave it there.

ABDULLAH: In fact we have not here discussed --

HANNITY: The "Question of the Day" is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HANNITY: Welcome back to "Hannity." Time for tonight's "Question of the Day." All right, do you think the Duggars handled the situation with their son, Josh, properly? Just go to Facebook.com/SeanHannity, on Twitter, it's @SeanHannity. Let us know what you think.

And that's all the time we have left this evening. We hope you'll set your DVR so you never miss an episode of "Hannity" because we miss you.  Anyway, thanks for being with us. We hope have you a great weekend.

Content and Programming Copyright 2015 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.