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The Five

Beginning of the end of organized religion in the US?

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," June 3, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Eric Bolling and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

Is America turning into a society of people only focused on themselves? That's what New York Cardinal Timothy Dolan, this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: We're into an age of excessive individuals, all right. We're into the age were independence, autonomy, convenience, sometimes selfishness. The new trinity of me, myself and I, seems to dominate. We know that's contrary to the very nature of the human person. The very nature of the human person needs God and needs other people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: There's a decline in the marriage rate in America, especially among millennial who are waiting longer and longer to wed. A new study also found there's the least religious generation in 60 years, so they are turning away from faith, too. Nearly three quarters of Americans say the state of moral values in the country is getting worse. So is there a way to stop the contagion of the, me, myself and I mindset? And of course, Kimberly, I'm mindful that we're sitting...

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Yeah.

PERINO: Here on television, where you actually do spend a lot time talking about ourselves.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

PERINO: Do you think things are worst today than in the past or are we kind of being fuddy-duddies about it?

GUILFOYLE: Well, I mean there's new, you know, challenges that have emerged through the age of technology, right? Because now it's the life of selfies and Instagram and Snapchat and things of that nature, so there is more emphasis and focus on that. So, of course, then it does become more about the individual instead of the collective or the outer community. So I think you really have to work hard to do that. If you're somebody that, you know, grew up back in the day like I did, then you kind of -- you have a different upbringing and different idea about things versus somebody coming of age now with all of the devices which really just makes you more inwardly focused, and that is a challenge. They are inwardly focused, they are not as focused on the community, on, probably religion, church, others, that's sort of thing -- service.

PERINO: You have -- Eric, so your son is 16, 17. Do you notice a difference or are you worried or do you think there's a lot of promise there? Because I know that you like -- you say he and his friends, they are kind-hearted --

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Yup.

PERINO: They are driven, but they might be a little distracted by the electronics?

BOLLING: They're -- and they are absolutely, Cardinal Dolan is right. The nature (ph) me, myself and I, they are involved in that. They are involved in themselves. I'm telling you, they, they can't take 10 steps without taking a selfie, here's where I am, or this is what I'm eating, look what I'm drinking, look who I'm with. Does that translate into church attendance? Does that translate into religiosity? I'm not sure. I go to church every day. I don't require my son to go to church. Frankly, he doesn't go to church on the weekends. However, as I told you, couple months we were in Mexico on Easter Sunday and I'm there at church. And what does he do, surprised the heck out of me, pulled up next to me, and sat down for an hour and 15 minutes and paid attention and he felt good about it. So, I don't force it on him. I don't know if parents should be forcing it on their kids or not, but I will tell you -- there's a need that satisfied. There is a need -- there's innate a natural need, a hunger for spirituality, whether it's God or other things that satisfies when a kid spent some time in church or worshipping something.

PERINO: So Greg, I wanted to ask you, you don't have to be religious to be -- to live a moral life.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Of course.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: No.

PERINO: So, but can -- are kids unable to learn morals, like from an iPad?

GUTFELD: Well, Cardinal Dolan, he is right and he is wrong. It is not excessive individualism that is a problem. It is actually the opposite. I would rather have individuals than ISIS. ISIS is a group. What we are plagued by are people that are actually seeking a collective identity through various, various ways. Maybe it's driven by envy, maybe it's driven by extreme religious belief, but excessive individualism is a great thing, it what makes America great. He's confusing strength with selfishness. Right now, we're surrounded because of our mass media. We're surrounded by displays of wealth, luxury and fame. And people are feeling more and more irrelevant, and they, they have a mistaken belief that there are billions of people that are more successful than they are. And so what happens is they seek relevance in groups, the mob. This is why you see mob rule on the internet, on Twitter. People are seeking ways to strike out at other people, as a way to validate their own political, spiritual beliefs.

Ideology and identity are now the political team sport. The disintegration of healthful structures like family and like religion has left a vacuum that can be filled by anything. The weird thing about ISIS is that it is being filled by religion. It is a terrorist, it's a terrorist belief, but it is basically saying that we reject casual religion. We believe -- we leave our mosques because your mosques are too liberal for us. So that's a frightening thing. So going after excessive individuality is the wrong thing. I understand the selfishness part about it, but its individuals who make this place special, and they are the ones who rise up against the mob and change the world.

PERINO: And Juan, that's interesting. Juan, you're -- you study a lot in terms of education in America and young people and the trends there. Do see this as a problem?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: I think it is a problem to this extent, that when you see people set adrift, Dana, when they don't have structures, I think then when trouble comes, when there is difficulty, they lash out. So Greg, I was talking -- I was really interested in what Greg said, they always imagine that everybody is in so much better than I am and I'm the one that's being left behind and then they get angry, and then when I think that they act in ways that are totally anti-social. But you know the way I think of it is now, I look at something like the music today, and I find the music, again, so self-centered. It's all -- you know, it used to be love songs...

GUILFOYLE: Aww.

WILLIAMS: And how much I love the --

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: I mean, it's so sweet, Juan. I tell people this.

WILLIAMS: All right. So anyway, but now, it's like, I got that girl and I did this to this girl, and --

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: Whatever, and I'm going to stop.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: And, and I find that a little bit much. I just that you know who, who are gonna -- you know, what songs they are gonna listen to as they age? You know what love songs, that don't exist. But I will say, and then the other thing is that now, the older generation had John Wayne and he wasn't individual in the Greg Gutfeld (inaudible). He was an individual who would stand up and say that's wrong, to the bad guys. So today, and we go from, from John Wayne and Clint Eastwood, today, it looks to me more like we have friends, you know in the Seinfeld (inaudible)...

GUTFELD: Right.

WILLIAMS: Where, where everybody comes together and these are my friends -- these folks here at the table, this is my gang and we are going to hang out and we are a good gang. But, it does mean that you are taken away from a larger, from family because family oftentimes, especially for this younger generation, doesn't exist. And then, they somehow don't turn on the church and pick up on what Eric was saying, I don't know how I would get through life without some spiritual --

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Sustenance. Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: Right, yeah.

BOLLING: I, I agree with you...

GUILFOYLE: It feeds your soul.

BOLLING: I valued -- it does. It feeds your soul and like I said, when Eric left that -- that mass that day, you could see, you could see it. He had something and I think and I literally said to my son, you don't need to do this, you should do this more. I'm not going to make you do this, but you should do this more. Attend church -- believe in God, yeah.

GUILFOYLE: What call this is filled with the Holy Spirit.

BOLLING: And he -- you could see that there was a recognition there, like there is something there. And I think a lot of the younger generation doesn't believe there's something there. They said -- you know, I don't get that, until they try it.

PERINO: Look --

BOLLING: All they can do is try it.

PERINO: I was thinking today, there is actually one institution where you actually see public displays of faith over and over again and the young people watching it and that is with sports. Whether the Olympics or the football teams, the basketball teams, and in seems like in sports it's still acceptable to publicly profess your faith.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, you see that in -- yeah, in the NFL games. You see it on -- you see even on colleges, campuses and then you see how the detractors, the people that come in and the atheist would say, oh, you know, we don't want you to do this. It's offensive that you're saying The Lord's prayer with your coach before a game, which really bugs me, but those are the cases. There's one in Ohio recently that was just happening this week.

PERINO: Let me to something else. Greg, I want to ask you about this because I thought of you this morning when I read this piece. It's in the Wall Street Journal that said notable and quotable section and 55 scholars have written to the College Board about, what they say is a sad state of the AP History Exam. That's Advanced Placement History Exam where your taking High School if you're on the, if you're entitled to the program. This is what they said, "The new version of the test will effectively marginalize important ways of teaching about the American past and force American high schools to each U.S. history from a perspective that self- consciously seeks to de-center American history and subordinate it to a global and heavily social-scientific perspective." Is this what you think - - worrying about?

GUTFELD: We'll, what there -- it translates, it translated as American history was made by bad men and we must rectify those sins. In my opinion, we're about 80 percent through the great leftward lean and experiment in natural disintegration, and the question is whether we let it all collapse. We have world at war in our absence. We have history -- our history being denigrated. We have riots and looting as we mock the police. We demonize the NSA while we struggle to identify exactly what a terrorist is. We are - - we are heading towards everything that a radical progressive would want and at this point, we have to decide whether we're willing to reverse it or just let it happen and start over.

PERINO: I feel like this AP Exam thing, Eric, is basically away to take away your heroes, right? Don't think of Thomas Jefferson as an individual, as somebody you aspire to be like because they want to basically, put --

BOLLING: Rewrite. Rewrite the history.

PERINO: Rewrite the history in a way that doesn't say that we're great.

BOLLING: Right. In a way, that fits the narrative that the left has been pushing him and bringing. Quick anecdotal piece -- last week, middle of last week, someone tweeted me. A high school junior from Pennsylvania tweeted me and she's like -- listen to this. There's an audio of a teacher teaching in a class and it was Russell Brand trashing my stance on capitalism. And I contacted the principal, did you realize that your -- one of your sociology teachers is doing this? And he said, give me a day or two and he got back to us this week and, it's like, yeah, we're OK with it. I'm like, do you understand what a socialist -- do you know what, this guy is - - and your 16-year-old are sitting and listening, and they don't even want to hear it...

GUTFELD: You should have been recorded that, that would have been great for show.

BOLLING: What -- it is recorded but I --

GUTFELD: Yeah.

BOLLING: They -- the student doesn't want to be -- out of --

PERINO: Don't want to get in trouble.

BOLLING: Who here she is, yeah.

PERINO: Yeah.

BOLLING: But, we're gonna, I'm gonna -- it's gonna get bigger and let's talk about a little bit more. But the point is they're OK with teaching tools like Russell Brand trashing capitalism, trashing people who are free market, putting that bias spin in the classroom in 16-year-old.

WILLIAMS: You know I don't --

BOLLING: 16-year-old minds.

WILLIAMS: I don't, I don't think what the scholars are saying, though is that you want to replace one set of, you know, kind of liberal thinking with conservative thinking. I think what they want to do is --

PERINO: No.

WILLIAMS: Get back to founding principles like limited government -- I think they want to get back the idea of individual liberty of equality under law for all. That's what drives America, and we try to reinvent America all the time. I think that's good, but the problem with this is, they are moving away from it and all it's about is identity politics.

BOLLING: Do that in sociology. Don't do that in history, though.

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: Right.

PERINO: And for all of those people who are so upset about Common Core, if the AP Exams actually, where you should direct some of that --

GUTFELD: But you know what is funny? There's some really simple --

GUILFOYLE: You get college credits, though.

GUTFELD: That's true, but you don't get a job.

PERINO: But it's on your way to as Greg is saying, like the leftward leaning their AP Exam, if you take it in this format --

GUTFELD: Yeah.

PERINO: Leads you right into a great freshman year.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

PERINO: Whatever college you choose --

GUTFELD: But you know what, action actually creates character. Often we think that character causes action. But there's something to be said about just basic manners that manners is in its own way of sacrifice, that you're sacrificing your own Id, you don't desire to do whatever you want. And it unifies you in a community by actually saying, I will do this as I will express myself with good manners. That is the thing that is lost and that is the thing that actually used to hold communities together and now it is now much like patriotism seemed as quaint or perhaps irrelevant.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, they always joke in the black community. It used to be that, if you misbehave, someone would --

GUTFELD: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: If the neighbor would smack down you on the butt, right.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: Now, oh my, God. You don't touch my child. So there's nobody...

GUTFELD: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: To give structure to that child.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

PERINO: All right, well--

GUTFELD: I try.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: Except on that part.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

PERINO: All right. Next, a terror scare in Boston, one suspect is in custody, another is dead. What they were allegedly plotting -- that's coming up next on The Five.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: An ISIS style plot against law enforcement appears to have been foiled in Boston and may have included a plan to behead police, one suspect in custody, another dead. 26-year-old Usaamah Rahim was killed after he reportedly launched members at the joint terrorism task force with a knife as they approached to question him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM EVANS, BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Our officers went out there to only to question the individual because the level of our concern rose to the level that we needed to question him. I think we never anticipated what his reaction would be and that he would pull out, obviously, a military knife. In fact, some point when the suspect gets close enough to cause imminent harm to the officer, that the officer discharged his weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Rahim's brother disputes that account, claiming he was shot in the back, but civil rights leaders are backing up police, after they were shown video of the shooting along with clergy member today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARNELL WILLIAMS, URBAN LEAGUE OF EASTERN MASSACHUSETTS: What the video does reveal to us very clearly is that the individual was not on the cell phone, the individual was not shot in the back, and that the information that was reported by others that that was a case is inaccurate. I was 150 percent collaborate with what the commissioner had just stated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: OK. So this is a unique kind of turn of events, you have civil rights leaders coming out because they were afforded an opportunity to come and calm and private and review the evidence. Novel approach and perhaps this could make a difference and how this case is handled in the mainstream media and by those in the community that I don't know. Dana, what do you think?

PERINO: I thought it was very smart of how they handled that and I commend the civil rights leaders for coming out and immediately saying that because it could stop any of the fear mongering (ph) or other problems. Interestingly, we've been talking it for a couple of months and we let that James Comey, the FBI director who has said that he has open cases of possible terrorist activity in all 50 states. That includes Rhode Island. OK, that's not necessarily a place where you think there would be hot bed of terrorist activity, that means that our police forces and our intelligence community have to be able to communicate with one another, share their information, share their intelligence and to be able to act, like in this case, might have been a little sooner than they wanted because I think they were trailing him and trying to get other information. I think I absolutely commend them. I'm glad it turned out this way.

GUILFOYLE: OK. And plus, from a communications perspective, that was good to get out in front of it, have them get in front of the microphone, use their voice and hopefully connect other people to kind of quell any kind of hysteria or disruption that thing might have taken place. Are you having a physical condition or --

GUTFELD: What was I doing? Oh, no. No, I was just thinking deeply about this. I was thinking about how CNN described this as, it was the third time this year that the Boston police were involved in shooting a suspect. So the lesson in media is if you remove the context, cops kill a terrorist. Then it's just another police-involved shooting which makes for a trend piece. So that's, that's how you report it. Interesting thing, we should always be reminded the cops are always the first to be the target because they are the barrier between these barbarians and us. Do you know the criminal background of Usaamah? He has none. He literally is a needle in a haystack. And it is a reminder this isn't a game of whack-a-mole. This is your locating a human time bomb before they detonate, and the only people who know how to do that, know how to do that. And if you're ignorant of that process, you should shut up.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Glad you got that off your chest.

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: I'm glad you we did it in front of millions in America. All right, Bolling?

BOLLING: So the interesting part about Usaamah Rahim is that he -- I actually talked about this on Facebook. Couples of others -- I think they picked up a Mr. Wright and there's a third unnamed man, it's allegedly gone --

GUTFELD: They have been looking for him for some time, Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, yeah --

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: Is he's out there (inaudible).

BOLLING: I believe it's with the --

GUILFOYLE: E-mail me.

BOLLING: Someday you may want --

GUILFOYLE: Oh, never mind.

BOLLING: And he -- he's (inaudible) terrorists --

GUILFOYLE: Wrong spelling.

GUTFELD: That's racist.

BOLLING: There's also an initial link with this size, I see that Usaamah Rahim worshipped at the Islamic center of Boston -- culture center that rang a bell so I would looked back and sure enough, that's where Tsarnaev, one of the big -- Tamerlan Tsarnaev actually, was a member of that same cultural center and the founder of that cultural center is, is --

GUILFOYLE: Is under investigation?

BOLLING: No, he's behind bars for 23 years for terrorism plot and money laundering about kind of funds. So he -- this guy was clearly -- he was out in the open. There was no -- you know, it wasn't hard to find this guy. He had a lot of ties. He had a lot of -- the access, lot of ties to terrorists. So this wasn't one of those ones that were very difficult to find. Great job, but the scary part is, targeting cops. I mean, what is going on in America where cops are constantly being targeted now? It's scary. It's disgusting, despicable and scary.

GUILFOYLE: And the intelligence report they have was the intent to behead...

BOLLING: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: Police officers.

WILLIAMS: Well, I don't know he was targeting.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: No, no, that was the plot.

WILLIAMS: No. Well, I don't know. Maybe the plot, but in the instance where he was shot, what happened was the police --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: This is the plot --

WILLIAMS: The question is --

BOLLING: That they've been talking --

WILLIAMS: Right.

BOLLING: They've been watching him for 18 months.

GUILFOYLE: That was they plan to go --

WILLIAMS: But, what I'm saying what in terms of the shooting --

GUILFOYLE: Stop and question him.

WILLIAMS: Because what Greg was talking about is, you know they've shot three people and there was some getting, I think that's why the whole tenor got tense. You know, are you shooting at people too frequently, and this is a very separate case. I don't think it should be lumped with the other cases...

GUTFELD: Right.

WILLIAMS: Was your point.

GUTFELD: Right.

WILLIAMS: But I will say this, that Michael McCaul, who is the head of Homeland Security in the House said, this guy was communicating with ISIS, now that takes it to a different level, in my mind. So this is not like some, you know, sort of renegade guy who is just a bad guy and starting to act crazy. This is a guy who was tied in to, what Dana is talking about is this national thing. And the way this takes us back to the first segment. These are people who, I think -- he couldn't even get along with people in his own mosque.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: He thought that mosque was too weak in terms of his message.

GUILFOYLE: Too liberal.

GUTFELD: That was the ISIS on the cake.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: You're too much. And so -- and then he goes --

PERINO: You think so? (ph)

WILLIAMS: And he goes --

PERINO: That was pretty good.

WILLIAMS: Not only does he then start to communicate with ISIS, then he starts to plot, right?

GUTFELD: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: And his gonna have his moment of martyrdom. So I mean, look, he set himself up. That's what I think.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: All right. PERINO: And there's also a digital call to arms. Basically, there's something that is happening that we can't see, that the police have to have some sort of tool to be able to track what is happening online because that's how ISIS is encouraging. Even if it is an individual who think it's an idea in his head to go after the cops. I mean, they are on -- we have got to give our law enforcement everything that they need to be able to fight back.

GUILFOYLE: Absolutely right.

Next, who would you cast to play homicidal maniac, Charles Manson. Gutfeld?

GUTFELD: Yes.

GUILFOYLE: We show you who Hollywood shows not exactly a look alike, Greg got that, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: A new show called "Aquarius" uses Charles Manson as a plot gimmick and, surprise, it's pretty adorable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How you doing?

EMMA DUMONT, ACTRESS: Well, I haven't seen my (inaudible) heard my mom call me baby girl for almost five days.

Great. That's how I'm doing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Charles has a vision, some day he's going to be more famous than the Beatles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: So true. So they cast a hairier version of Justice Bieber to play a heinous mass murderer. I get it. Everyone on TV has to be 420 percent better looking than the real person they're playing or nobody would watch. It's why in the Greg Gutfeld's story, I'll be played by Wallace Shawn.

But imagine if the show runners ran the History channel. George Clooney would play Hitler. Clive Owen would play Stalin. Dana Perino would play Eva Braun. They're uncanny.

But why even limit yourself to age or gender? Jennifer Lawrence could make a Chairman Mao. And what of horrible events? Why can't Kimberly play the 1906 earthquake? She does make the earth move.

This Manson thing reminds me of Rolling Stone's Boston bomber cover. The desire to recast evil as hot is how evil actually thrives. Manson was a symbol of the 1960s in that he costumed sick aggression as free love. Only Hollywood would make that huggable. Fact is, Manson wasn't even good looking or charismatic. He just look unlike his parent's generation was the whole point. Manson was about rebelling against a generation whose hard work and sacrifice made such rebellion possible. And that justified any cruelty as the strike against The Man.

The entire bad boy appeal is a lie, for it boils down to one essential fact: We glorify those who wish to destroy us. Revolutionaries are often just killers. Something to be reminded of every time you see a clown in a Che shirt.

You know, Kimberly...

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

GUTFELD: ... you're single. You like the bad -- you like the bad guys.

GUILFOYLE: OK. If I saw someone in a Che shirt, I'd run in the other direction.

GUTFELD: Why do the bad guys have to be so cute? Do TVs -- they just know that we're not going to watch ugly people?

GUILFOYLE: Well, of course, they want people who are telegenic. They want to romanticize the notion of it. Right? It's part of this whole liberal, PC nonsense that's going on. So, yes, that's what they do. It's Hollywood. They're going to put something forward like that just for the very reason. The fact that they picked someone like that to play Charles Manson, who's disgusting on the inside and the outside.

GUTFELD: You're being a little harsh, aren't you?

GUILFOYLE: Sorry.

GUTFELD: He only killed a family.

Hey, Juan, Bonnie and Clyde, you remember that movie?

WILLIAMS: I love it.

GUTFELD: Warren Beatty.

WILLIAMS: Sure.

GUTFELD: Warren Beatty played -- which one was it?

BOLLING: Clyde.

GUTFELD: ... the guy. Played the guy. So this is not new.

WILLIAMS: No.

GUTFELD: In fact, I would say "Bonnie & Clyde" was the first movie where they took a pin-up guy and made him into a bad guy, I think.

WILLIAMS: Wasn't Jack Nicholson the Joker?

GUTFELD: But "Bonnie & Clyde" came out before that.

WILLIAMS: I'm just saying, they always have good-looking people play bad guys. I mean, that's -- the shocker here to me is that this whole show, which has David Duchovny as this guy, the detective looking into this, I don't think that they get the idea that, as you described it, this is about evil. This is way bigger than just some counterculture clash.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: I mean, I'm thinking any culture, any generation, Manson is a bad, bad, mass-murdering son of a gun.

BOLLING: I think -- they can't be that dumb, though. Are they not playing it up like this? And the audience...

GUTFELD: No. They should have had a realistic looking actor.

GUILFOYLE: Portrayal, yes.

BOLLING: But then you can't -- I mean, part of the allure of this -- I don't know a thing about this show. It could be that he's taking these girls and he's making the allure of him, attracting the girls. And everyone in the audience knows what's about to happen.

WILLIAMS: Yes, that's true. That's true.

BOLLING: That may be more interesting than if you were, you know...

GUTFELD: It's not true. It's not true. That's the problem.

PERINO: Right. That's because part of his appeal was inexplicable.

GUILFOYLE: Correct.

PERINO: If you look at it and go, "Who in the world would fall have for that?" But it -- it was something that he was able to do to mesmerize them. It scared the crap out of me.

You know that the -- I was always scared of...

GUILFOYLE: Ooh.

GUTFELD: I can't believe you just said that.

PERINO: Crap?

GUTFELD: You said it twice now. America, plug your ears.

PERINO: Crap. Crap. Crap. It's like clicking my heels three times.

You know, this doesn't necessarily happen in all TV shows.

GUTFELD: That's true.

PERINO: Timothy Olyphant in "Justified" was the good guy.

GUTFELD: Yes. That's true. And what...

PERINO: But all the bad guys were ugly.

GUTFELD: Boyd was handsome.

PERINO: He was not a good...

BOLLING: Can you explain -- can you explain to me where "Dexter" went and why it went away?

GUILFOYLE: You loved that show.

BOLLING: That was the best series. That was -- Dexter was a murderer.

PERINO: He was a serial killer.

BOLLING: He was a serial killer, but he was killing bad guys who got off on legal technicalities. It was a brilliant show.

GUILFOYLE: Somebody told me I looked like -- I looked like the sister on there or I looked like someone? I don't know.

BOLLING: He ended up...

WILLIAMS: Oh, no. Oh, no.

PERINO: I can't watch a show about a serial killer. No way.

GUTFELD: Really? What if it was a dog? What if the serial killer was a dog?

PERINO: Couldn't do it.

GUTFELD: Couldn't do it?

PERINO: I saw there was a thing yesterday about a dog who was found with his muzzle was taped shut.

GUTFELD: I know.

PERINO: I couldn't even look at it.

WILLIAMS: Everybody watched "The Sopranos." And basically...

GUTFELD: Antiheroes.

PERINO: Nobody was good looking in "The Sopranos."

WILLIAMS: What?

PERINO: There was no good-looking person.

WILLIAMS: I don't think that's true.

GUILFOYLE: The girl that died...

WILLIAMS: Yes, that girl was pretty hot.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: This is amazing.

All right. Ahead, Megyn Kelly got the first interview with Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar on their son's molestation scandal. We've got a clip from her exclusive coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: Does the retirement age in America need to be raised in order to raise Social Security -- Social Security? That's what some of the 2016 hopefuls are suggesting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Folks told me, "Don't touch this stuff. It's the third rail." So you know me. So instead of touching it, I'm hugging it.

I don't believe the world will stop spinning on its axis for raising the retirement age two years in '25.

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA: We need to look over the horizon and begin to phase in over an extended period of time, going from 65 to 68 or 70. And that, by itself, will help sustain the retirement system for anybody under the age of 40.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: But not all of the GOP contenders agree.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do you have any idea what the economic impact would be if you suddenly told people at 65, "By the way, you've got to work another seven years"? It's not going to work out.

Not only do you throw the entire job market into disarray, but I don't want to be the person who proposes that, to say that "The government screwed up. You're going to pay the consequences."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: All right. Let's take it around the table. This is something we've talked about quite a bit here.

PERINO: Yes. I was -- I was in the White House when President Bush, after the second inauguration, decided that Social Security and reforming it, to make sure that people could have a little bit more money in their pockets. This was going to be this big push: 60 cities in 60 days. And there was not a single Republican who backed us.

So when Chris Christie's political people tell him, "It's not the smartest thing to lead with," I think that they're right.

I think it's an important issue, and you need to have a position on it. And you can spell it out in a policy paper, but I wouldn't be leading with it. I would focus on mobility, wages, economic growth. I would focus on the middle class instead of this.

The other thing about what Huckabee is saying, in my opinion, it's pretty disingenuous. Because what he's saying by saying he would increase Social Security payments, I understand that that would be a popular move by some, but some are going to have to pay for it. What he is guaranteeing is future middle-class tax increases.

And he might not admit that. But that is, like, the practical reality of what he's suggesting.

BOLLING: If he ever gets on the stage, and this question comes up, he's going to have to answer that one. I would tend to agree with that.

Juan, your thoughts on raising the Social Security age. Which one of these guys has it right?

WILLIAMS: I think they're both incredibly brave to do it. I'll say that, because I don't think there's any way that it's not the third wheel of politics.

But you now what? It's not only them. It's Ben Carson. It's Ted Cruz. So the Republicans are saying, we see being honest with the American people, sort of embracing them, and especially older Americans, mostly Republicans, say "Hey, we're going to have to do this" as some way to make an impression and gain some stature in the Republican -- in the crowded Republican contest.

BOLLING: K.G., life expectancy from the time Social Security was started till now, life expectancy has gone up about 15 years, maybe even more. Yet the Social Security retirement age hasn't. It's gone from what used to be a true retirement account to kind of "Let's see if I can live off this for a few more years."

GUILFOYLE: Right. I know. I think it's challenging. It's a real struggle. We have to be, you know, honest you know, about the economy, about the age of people still staying in the workforce.

But I think that both Chris Christie and Jeb have the right idea. And I don't care if it's the third wheel of politics. You've got to be honest if you care about this country and you want to do something that's right for future generations to come.

So then what my advice to you is to make sure and get some of these younger folks out that are going to have to be paying into this for a long time to really do feel and understand the importance of true reform that is financially meaningful and that fits the larger matrix of what we need to do as a group.

WILLIAMS: You know, that's a great point, because a lot of young people don't believe that Social Security will be around for them.

PERINO: Yes, but we believe that.

WILLIAMS: But they're the ones that are paying into the system right now. You can put down young people, but they're the ones that are supporting it.

GUILFOYLE: That is what I'm saying.

WILLIAMS: I mean, so when they go after it, they're not going after young voters with this, by the way.

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: Which is odd to me because young voters would listen to this. They're going after older Republican voters who are not going to be dealing with this message well.

BOLLING: They're being fiscally responsible. They're being smart and fiscally responsible.

GUTFELD: I would be for the opt out, just -- I would like to make a deal and just say, you can have all of the Social Security that I put in for the last 27 years if I can just have the next 20 years on this planet, you stay out of my paycheck. You win that deal.

I don't want -- I don't want any Social Security. You don't even have to give it to me. I'm done, because I plan on working until I drop dead.

But the candidates are going about this the wrong way. The real area of concern where they can win is terror and crime. Because in those areas, we are losing. The world is a playground for evil. We know that. The pendulum has swung so far to the progressive left that it's time that somebody says, "Look, the adults have to come back from their Carnival cruise and clean this house."

And now for this -- this is little stuff. The big stuff is terror and crime.

BOLLING: They can't let you opt out, Greg. You pay so many other people's retirement.

GUTFELD: I know.

BOLLING: Heating, home heating bills. Your taxes.

WILLIAMS: And let me tell you, on the road, you watch some of these debates in town halls, the seniors say, "You can't touch my -- you can't touch my Medicaid. That's mine. I earned it."

BOLLING: I paid into it.

WILLIAMS: Government, take your hands off.

BOLLING: You do it over time.

PERINO: You know who's not going to mention it at all?

GUILFOYLE: Who?

PERINO: Hillary Clinton.

WILLIAMS: Yes, because it's...

PERINO: Smart.

WILLIAMS: Yes, because even Obama -- Obama got beat up on it.

GUILFOYLE: She doesn't answer any questions anyway. How could she bring it up?

BOLLING: We've got to go.

Coming up, the interview you'll only see on FOX News, the first clips from Megyn Kelly's exclusive interview with the embattled Duggar family, next on "The Five."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: The Duggars rose to fame with their hit show "19 Kids and Counting," and now the supersized Christian family faces a sexual abuse scandal that threatens their program and their reputation. Parents Jim Bob and Michelle will address it for the first time tonight on FOX News. Megyn Kelly got an exclusive interview with them, following reports that their eldest son, Josh, molested girls, including some of his own sisters, when he was a teen. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: This is a young boy who has come to you with shocking information. What did he say? I mean, how did you respond to him? What was that like, that exchange?

MICHELLE DUGGAR, REALITY TV STARR: There was so much grief in our hearts. I think as parents we felt, we're failures, you know. Here, we tried to raise our kids to do what's right, to know what's right. And, yes, one of our children made some really bad choices. And I think as a parent we were just -- we were devastated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: And here's one more clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Do you think that the backlash against the Duggars has been greater because people object to who you are and what you stand for?

M. DUGGAR: I think some out there do.

JIM BOB DUGGAR, REALITY TV STAR: Yes.

KELLY: Do you think, in particular, your Christian beliefs are at issue here?

J. DUGGAR: I think -- you know, Christianity is not about being perfect or about being a perfect family, but it's actually about being forgiven. And so I think as people on the outside think, well, Christians are supposed to be perfect. They're supposed to say -- you're supposed to live this perfect life. No, you know what? All of us as Christians, we struggle every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Part one of Megyn's interview with the Duggars airs tonight on "The Kelly File" at 9 p.m. Eastern.

Greg, is there a backlash against them because of their Christian values?

GUTFELD: No. There's a backlash against them, because they have a sick son who molested, maybe, his siblings and was protected by it. That's why.

In the context -- this is -- confession for some people is a way out of heinous activity. Sick creeps are saying, like, "I have been forgiven and, therefore, isn't that enough? I've suffered" -- they are using religion as a shield, and that's disgusting. To me, that's disgusting.

WILLIAMS: Well, hold on. Hold on. Mike Huckabee says, as he's running for president, he says there's an insensitive blood thirst.

GUTFELD: Right.

WILLIAMS: That's a quote from candidate Huckabee, saying that the critics are dredging up sins from long ago...

GUTFELD: Right.

WILLIAMS: ... to somehow lambaste, and unfairly lambaste, the Duggars.

GUTFELD: Yes, I guess though, when you put your entire family on TV, that is bound to happen. But I wonder if Josh were a member of CAIR, would forgiveness by Huckabee or anybody else be discussed -- discussed like this.

If the Duggars weren't part of a religious team that you belong to, would you be as sympathetic? A criminal -- a criminal who exalts an organized religion that you belong to, will be treated better than a criminal that is not part of your religious group.

So if I were to commit a crime, because I'm not religious, I would be seen less sympathetic than a Duggar doing a more heinous crime; because he's part of your religious team. That's wrong.

WILLIAMS: Dana -- how do you see this, Dana?

PERINO: I don't -- when I watch the interview tonight with Megyn Kelly, that will be the first time I've ever actually even seen the Duggars. I don't -- I don't watch their reality show. I am impressed that Megyn got the interview. And it looks to me like she asked all the right questions.

WILLIAMS: Now, Eric, this mama June Shannon, who's you know, the mama on "Here comes Honey Boo-Boo," so that show got canceled because she was going out with a guy who was a convicted child molester. She says there's no way this show can't be canceled. It's got to get out of there. What do you say?

BOLLING: I have no idea what they're going to do with the show. My guess would be -- I would agree with Greg, that some things that once you put your family on air, it's kind of -- you open yourself up to the criticism.

One thing to keep in mind, though -- and by no means, look, this is awful what Josh did -- I don't know that all the facts are out yet. He still -- he was a minor at the time. And I'm not sure they would be talking about this if they hadn't put themselves on TV.

WILLIAMS: Well, they're on TV, and one of the victims, apparently, the child was 5 years old. Just terrible.

GUTFELD: What if you imagine it was another religion? How sympathetic would people be?

WILLIAMS: Look, it's a crime. Which is your point, right? It was a crime. So Kimberly, you have a situation where, like Lena Dunham, who's another famous person, she wrote about molesting her own sister. And the media paid attention for a while, but I see that she's been cast out. Has she?

GUILFOYLE: Not really. No. I mean, no. But I mean, this is a very challenging situation. I mean, I prosecuted child molestation cases and child abuse cases. It's very disturbing. There's a lot usually behind the scenes than what's going on. I want to know, what was the genesis of this? What was going on in his life?

What -- I'm just telling you, I think there's a lot -- I hope Megyn gets into this. And also, it looks like it was leaked from police documents. You know, who's behind that. There's quite a bit to this.

WILLIAMS: You know, we appreciate your compassion, because I sense it damages lives. Don't do it.

Anyway, don't miss part one of Megyn's interview with the Duggars, tonight at 9 p.m. Eastern.

"One More Thing" up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: Time now for "One More Thing," and Kimberly is first.

GUILFOYLE: Well, so if you enjoyed "American Sniper" and like Clint Eastwood movies, he is going to take on Captain Sully and do a whole biopic about his life. It's going to be pretty fascinating. Warner Brothers is backing the project, and it's going to tell the story. And that was the national headline, "The Miracle on the Hudson." I mean, it still seems unbelievable to this day, that that man was able to successfully and safely land the plane in the Hudson. I remember seeing it in the water -- unbelievable -- from my apartment at the time. It was pretty incredible, so I'm looking forward to that -- Eric.

BOLLING: OK, so yesterday we had a very heated discussion on guns, specifically when we got to the part about conceal carry. This happened with Geraldo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS: When was the last time you heard of a civilian stopping a crime with a gun, as opposed to a 4-year-old being shot to death by a 6-year-old?

BOLLING: Thousands of times per day. In fact, there was a static, I don't have that, where...

RIVERA: On "Legend." You're watching too much (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: So Breitbart.com pulled the facts. They went back and did the research on it. And the number is actually 2,082 offenses with gun use per day or 760,000. John Lott also e-mailed me this morning, saying it's even more than that. It's somewhere around...

GUTFELD: Did he call you?

BOLLING: No. He e-mailed me. He said about 2,700 per day. So hats off to Breitbart, John Lott.

And Geraldo, stop playing with the guns.

PERINO: Yes, don't play with guns. Greg.

GUTFELD: Unless they are squirt guns because squirt guns are fun.

All right. Let's go to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Greg's Headline Corner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: All right. This is pretty interesting. This is also from Breitbart. On Tuesday, former Obama adviser David Axelrod informed an Israeli television channel that President Obama considers himself the closest thing to a Jew that has ever sat in the office.

And I thought that was probably correct. And I think he should take inspiration from Bruce Jenner, who is now Caitlyn Jenner. And Barack Hussein Obama should now become Ira Rosenbaum Obama.

PERINO: That's a good idea.

GUTFELD: Why not? Why not make -- why not make race and ethnicity and religion fluid? Why not? Everything else is.

GUILFOYLE: OK.

PERINO: I want to pitch that story today. But not in that way. You would have brought it to a whole new level. I appreciate.

GUTFELD: You're welcome.

PERINO: Juan, you're next.

WILLIAMS: So dreams do come true. Dylan Sutcliffe, a 9-year-old from Lyndhurst, Ohio, was signed by the Cleveland Browns for one day.

Now, he has an immunodeficiency that attacks his organs. His brother, a 4-year-old, has the same problem. But today he was a member of the Cleveland Browns. He got to play some football. His parents, his grandparents were there. They say he likes to knock people over, so he wanted to play a little defense. He got the chance. Congratulations. That was great. Cleveland Browns, you're my team for today, buddy.

PERINO: Wow. You brought your a-game to the "One More Thing" block.

Mine is not as good, but I did think it was pretty funny. OK. Hillary Clinton is going to be at Texas Southern University tomorrow. And the media department there put out advice to -- an advisory to the media.

And one of the things they wanted to know is that there will be media- only restrooms located down the hall to the left of the media area. Because you don't want to mingle with the media...

GUTFELD: That's true.

PERINO: ... in the restroom. And also, there will be no opportunities to interview Hillary Clinton. Her speech will be her interview.

GUTFELD: Did you hear that David Gergen gets his own stall?

PERINO: In the media -- anyway, that was met with such derision that Texas Southern put out a new advisory, and they changed it. I'm not sure I got the joke.

Set your DVRs. Never miss an episode of "The Five." That's it for us. "Special Report" is up next.

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