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The Five

Is there a path to the presidency for Rand Paul?

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," April 7, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Jesse Watters, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is The Five. Kentucky Senator Rand Paul makes it official, announcing his candidacy for the Republican nomination for the 2016 presidential election with a fiery anti- Washington message.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL, 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have come to take our country back from the special interests that use Washington as their personal piggy bank. The special interests that is more concerned with their personal welfare, than the general welfare.

(APPLAUSE)

PAUL: The Washington machine that gobbles up our freedoms and invades every nook and cranny of our lives must be stopped.

(APPLAUSE)

PAUL: Today, I announce with God's help, with the help of liberty lovers everywhere, that I am putting myself forward as a candidate for president of the United States of America.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Paul is the 2nd GOP candidate to throw a TABOR (ph) ring that's far, and according to Bloomberg Politics Editor Mark Halperin, Rand will be a formidable contender in the Republican field, because he can appeal to younger voters in a way his other GOP opponents may not be able to.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK HALPERIN, BLOOMBERG POLITICS EDITOR: He is politically, not only talented, but it's like there are 17, going to be 17 people in this roller derby ring. He throws the sharpest, farthest elbows. He shapes things by going unapologetically after Washington, and by speaking a language with appeal to the people who follow what's called the liberty agenda. A lot of young people that not just young people that other Republicans can't even hear, it sounds like the parents Peanuts to this other Republicans. They can't make out what Rand Paul says because, it is communicating on a different level.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: OK. So what do you think? He's got a message that is going to resonate, Juan?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: I think it already resonates. Then clearly, you know he is a new face for the Republican Party. He is attracting new audiences. He reaches out to young people. I will say he reaches out to Hispanics and blacks as well. I think he talks about a key issue which is big government intrusion into our lives, especially through the internet and a like. So, on so many levels, he is a fresh, positive face for the Republican Party.

GUILFOYLE: Well, there has been a lot of people calling for that Jesse, to have somebody that's gonna fight the insider politics, de-seat the Washington machine and also be someone to make endorse (ph) with the younger demographic, including minority and lower socio economic communities.

JESSE WATTERS, GUEST CO-HOST: Sure, I think Rand Paul is a paradox. Right now, just looking at his profile, he is Tea Party populous, supply insider, social economic conservative, isolationist libertarian, OK? So I just really no where it seem. I think a lot of people like the fact that he is not a party line guy, but because he is not a party line guy, he is not gonna win. As I look at his profile here --

GUILFOYLE: He does not gonna win what? The election?

WATTERS: He is not going to win either, OK?

GUILFOYLE: Get election? Primary? (ph)

WATTERS: So he's -- he's not gonna win either. I don't even think he stands a chance. So he is, he is for pot, he is for gay marriage, he wears the jeans, he's got the curly hair, he is anti-corporatist, anti-Washington D.C. establishment, wants to tear down the prison industrial complex. Wants to slash the budget, wants to bring the troops home, he goes to Ferguson and talks the talk about poverty. The problem is you know what that appeals to? People under 50 and you know who votes in Republican primaries? People over 50. So I think he has got a little bit of a problem there. I think he's gonna have a hard time raising money, because anybody from Wall Street or any big corporations is not going to donate to this guy.

WILLIAMS: Well, I must say you are jealous of his curly hair.

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, there is something very bizarre there. But you do spend a lot of time with the flat iron. I have seen it.

(LAUGHTER)

WATTERS: That was a secret.

GUILFOYLE: Not anymore. Out it.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: There is somebody who participates in this show who does, a man, who does use a straight iron.

(LAUGHTER)

PERINO: That we won't say who he is. OK, I think what --

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: But for different reasons.

PERINO: I think what you are saying --

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: What? PERINO: OK. I think what he is - you were saying is that Rand Paul might actually have a good general election strategy, but it is hard to see the Republican primary path. Because that is a path through Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, so there are some specifics. That's it. I think that every candidate that is willing to put himself out there as a president for the United States deserves a good first day, and he he's had a pretty good first day. Ted Cruz has a first good day. It gets harder from here because, he does try, as you're pointing out, he checks a lot of boxes. So he tries to be all things to all people.

WATTERS: Yeah.

PERINO: In some ways, you end up in pleasing nobody.

WATTERS: Right.

PERINO: And it might be difficult to get -- you know, to catch fire. The other thing is he is going to have to comment on things he wouldn't necessary have commented on before. So for the past two weeks, during the RFRA debate, the Religious Freedom Act, he was away, he was on vacation. I think that's acceptable and his staff said that he was unavailable for comment. But yet, he commented on several other things. When you are a candidate for president, you don't have the luxury of choosing what to comment on or not. So I think that will get harder for him, as well.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Is there any way that you could see him making that path in the primary, versus you know, jumping ahead to the general?

PERINO: I would --

GUILFOYLE: What would you advise, with respect to Iowa.

PERINO: I would --

GUILFOYLE: And everything else? (ph)

PERINO: Well, I think one of his greatest attributes is authenticity, OK? So if he can keep authentic and not look like he is being inconsistent, by taking positions that are different from what he has expressed in the past, maybe there is a path. I'm just not sure exactly how it goes from Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina.

GUILFOYLE: OK, Greg?

GUTFELD: I have three points, one that is shallow, one that is substantial and another one that is absurd. The shallow one is, the fact that I do like and enjoy his willingness to engage cordially and try to persuade people who normally wouldn't vote for him, without slogans or platitudes, the fact that he is going out there and doing that. I have a rule, that if you can turn on the TV and you can predict with 98 percent effectiveness. Who that person's political affiliations are, without hearing them? Then I won't vote for them. So with him, I -- you might not know what he believes in by looking at him, because he is basically a different Republican, and he is hard to make fun of. He is a hard person, he is like in a way like President Obama and it's hard to find a hook to make fun of him.

So that's the -- make it shallow. The stuff that bug, bugs me about him is when he waves the phone around, during a thing to mock the NSA programs. What is your alternative to the NSA? It's weird to see someone talk tough about radical Islam, which he did, and talk tough about the war on terror while celebrating the man, Edward Snowden who undermines those very efforts. You can't be for one side and the other. And once you politicize national security by waving around a phone, you lose me. The NSA is not anybody's team. It's not Republican or Democrat, it's on America's team. They separate us from death. Now that the uncertain thing is if you go to Rand Paul's website, he is selling -- take a look at this, he is selling signed to constitute -- pocket constitutions for $1,000.

WATTERS: Ohh --

GUTFELD: It's not -- OK, so I don't understand this. I didn't know you could sign a book that you didn't write. I mean, I mean, you sell signed copies of a book that you didn't write.

WATTERS: I sell Bill books, I write --

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: I decided. I'm doing the same thing.

WATTERS: OK.

GUTFELD: I have Dana's new book.

GUILFOYLE: Oh my, gosh.

GUTFELD: Which I have signed and I am selling this.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, self portrait.

GUTFELD: Yes it is. Who they talk bitter, and I don't take money.

PERINO: I hope you get a lot for it.

WILLIAMS: And you know what I don't get it.

GUTFELD: I don't take mo money.

WILLIAMS: I don't get it.

GUTFELD: That you have to do some horrible things.

WILLIAMS: Alright, alright, but I don't get it. Like, I always think of you as a libertarian.

GUTFELD: Well, in order to be a libertarian, you have to have a -- you have to have defense that is willing to do almost anything to protect your freedoms. I am with him on almost -- you know on pro legalization, I'm against all regulatory laws. I don't think it should be regulatory laws. Laws based on hypothetical (ph).

WATTERS: Just legalization of prostitution, right? Not strokes. (ph)

GUTFELD: Well, all--

WATTERS: Everything.

GUTFELD: I don't -- if it's a decision between two human beings -- two adult human beings, I do not see how that can be illegal. But, in order to have those freedoms, in order to have those freedoms, you have to have the greatest defense on the planet. You have to be willing to go out there and defend your freedoms.

GUILFOYLE: You don't think that he would do that?

GUTFELD: The way he talks about the NSA programs, the way he talk about Snowden, that is the mindset of a grad students, not a presidential candidate.

GUILFOYLE: Well then, you are getting back into college campuses there. The proposal (ph) approach.

GUTFELD: But as I said, but I said before, I am -- he is absolutely engaging and he is going to change his tune on Snowden and I know that.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, because he wants to please you.

GUTFELD: Exactly.

WILLIAMS: But you know he has been changing his tune on some other issues lately --

GUTFELD: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: And what do you think the Democrats think of him?

WILLIAMS: Oh, I think that the Democrats in fact, would think that he is very dangerous. And dangerous because, he has the ability to say to young people who don't vote Republican and their reliable democratic voters, that there is something there. You go back to his dad. You know his dad did a tremendous job not only of reaching out to young people and libertarians instincts on issues like, legalizing marijuana and all the rest. But his dad was able to raise a great deal of money from people who are sick of the two party systems and the traditional and the orthodox this. You know, I might say, you know, Dana talks about this being a good day -- good first day. I don't know about of any other candidate who had people in his own party running ads against him on the first day. This is wild.

PERINO: Well --

GUILFOYLE: It's interesting. We will get to that, as well if you will --

WILLIAMS: I'm sorry.

GUILFOYLE: Pardon me, lets' take a walk. Because Rand Paul's foreign policy positions are the subject of much controversy and debate. So how much will they hurt him amongst GOP voters? Well one group, the Foundation for a Secure and Prosperous America is already up with a $1 million ad buy tying Paul to President Obama's policy on Iran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Senate is considering tough new sanctions on Iran. President Obama says, he'll veto them and Rand Paul is standing with him. Rand Paul supports Obama's negotiations with Iran. He doesn't understand the threat.

PAUL: You know it's ridiculous to think that there are threats to our national security.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rand Paul is wrong and dangerous. Tell him to dump siding (ph) with Obama, because even one Iranian bomb will be a disaster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Paul defends himself against the attack ad in a preview from an exclusive sit down interview with Sean Hannity airing tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: I would say that almost every element of the ad is a lie. I mean, they say I'm helping the president, I am actually one who is said to the president that this deal, when it gets final, has to be finalized by Congress. I have done that to actually strengthen the president's hand, but I do want him negotiating from a position of strength.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Alright. So he is having to defend himself from day one, out of the gate. Saying that he is not associated with the president's philosophies or ideology, how does it shape up with the GOP?

PERINO: This is -- it is cannot be a surprise to Rand Paul that foreign policy was going to be a difficult one for him to message, especially to our Republican audience. Now his philosophies of get out -- bring America back, focus on America, let other people fight their own wars, that sounds pretty good even to some Republican voters, OK? Maybe to some younger people and to people who are just sick of the whole thing, the problem with that are a couple things. Foreign policy events have a tendency to change your presidential policy. For example, in the Clinton administration, I think everybody could agree that decimating the budget for the military and the Intel community was a bad idea leading into 2001, where you had a major terrorist attack on the country that had to be rebuilt.

In addition, President George W. Bush as a candidate said, I am not for nation building. 9/11 happened and he writes in his book that, that actually changed his mind and he believes that the spread of freedom and liberty was the best way to protect us in the future. President Obama, he campaigns as a senator, that he is going to close GITMO, he's gonna get all the troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Well, look how that turned out in Iraq. He hasn't said close GITMO and he actually send more troops to Afghanistan and just said that is going to extend. So, when you say you do not want to be the world's policeman that might sound really good. But when you get into the oval office, world events have a way of changing your opinions.

So, he might not -- he might not want to have to deal with ads against him at this point from people that he might consider of his own party, but he has stated these positions and he's gonna either to have back them up or change them leading into the election.

WATTERS: I actually support the ad. I think a lot of his foreign policy is offensive, it's a code pink (ph) foreign policy. Well some of the things he has said and done. This guy said the American intervention in the Middle East created ISIS. I think President Obama actually said that too. He took the military option off the table in Iran, even President Obama had that.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

WATTERS: He said that Cheney went to war in Iraq for Halliburton profits, OK? I think that is an actual Huffington post headline.

(LAUGHTER)

WATTERS: He wants to get rid of the Patriot Act. So does Nancy Pelosi. These things don't sit well with me, not a lot of other Republican primary voters, and this guy is going to get knee capped in a debate and a debate by this hoax and he yes in the debate because, he's gonna get use of a punching bag. I mean this guy like makes Howard Dean look like a warmonger.

WILLIAMS: I think you, you under estimate how many Republicans would agree that you know what? Enough with all this intervention nation building, we don't need to do it.

GUTFELD: But if he doesn't offer?

WATTERS: I don't think a lot of people in the primary want to -- you know, just cut tail and run away while ISIS is butchering (inaudible).

WILLIAMS: No, no. That depends on the way you put it. If you say that --

GUTFELD: If you saying that they say that this is current --

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: (inaudible) political theaters that we're facing and looking at from a foreign policy perspective. It really isn't a time where America needs to be retrieving.

WILLIAMS: Right.

GUILFOYLE: Because things are just devolving at a very rapid and alarming pace. Greg.

GUTFELD: To your point, it would be good if he had an alternative. For example, he took that symbolic stand against droning a U.S. citizen.

WATTERS: Perfect.

GUTFELD: What is your alternative in killing a terrorist? I've no -- I don't care if it was a U.S. citizen, but what is your alternative? Would you rather risk troops to go after this guy and bring him back, or would you send a drone and kill him? Now he wants to increase military spending. If not drones then what? Bombs? I don't understand what he wants to spend it on. Final thing, a quiz, (ph) what is Rand short for?

WILLIAMS: Randal.

GUTFELD: What?

WILLIAMS: Randal.

GUTFELD: Oh, you didn't give me my three options.

WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry.

GUTFELD: Randy, Randal or Randolph, you are correct.

WILLIAMS: OK. But let me just say --

GUILFOYLE: Juan Williams are our very own phone a friend.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: Let me just say that you know in defense of Rand Paul, because you are all after him. First of all, this ad --

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: This ad, to me is low ball politics. I think it is run by the same group that did knee capping of John Kerry, you know the swift voting, and what, what do you see here? All -- the anonymous ad, they don't even want to put their name on it and he is saying something that is not out of line with what most Americans think, which is you know what? Enough with this war stuff. Let's figure out a way that we can impose our power and will.

PERINO: No.

WILLIAMS: Without --

WATTERS: It's a tough ad --

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: It's like going to grow up and take --

PERINO: No candidate runs for office wanting to go to war.

WILLIAMS: That will good. Tell that to the other Republican.

PERINO: A good candidate should be willing to say what he will and will not do in order to protect America.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

PERINO: That is just reality. He is going to have to deal with that.

GUILFOYLE: And you have civil options on the table. Alright, be sure to tune in to Hannity tonight, for Sean's exclusive one hour sit down with Senator Rand Paul, 10 p.m. eastern. And coming up, it's Hillary Clinton next. New details on the timing of the former first lady's announcement and the inside scoop on her different campaign approach, the second time around, when The Five returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WATTERS: Coming off the heels of Rand Paul's big 2016 announcement is Hillary Clinton, next? Within the next two weeks, the former first lady is expected to launch her second attempt at making 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue her permanent address. Reports claim Hillary's campaign will run on more humble principles, something I didn't know was possible from a Clinton. Larry Sabato, director of UVA, center for politics, says it doesn't matter what type of campaign she runs if the economy is in good shape, she will be, too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY SABATO, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA CENTER FOR POLITICS: The key thing in this election is not so much who the Republicans choose or for that matter whether it is Hillary Clinton or not, it's rather, where the economy is and late spring, early summer of 2016 and whether President Obama is up in the upper 40s, low 50s or is he in the low 40s or below that. If it is the latter, then a Republican is probably going to win the presidency. If it is the former then Hillary Clinton will probably win.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: Well I'm not so sure about that because Bush beat Gore when Clinton economy was doing pretty well. So we have reports here, this is pretty amusing that you know Hillary is criticized for this coronation thing, so she is saying, oh you know what? I'm gonna just pretend there is gonna be imaginary Democrat opponents in the primary. OK, so she is being criticized for being arrogant --

GUILFOYLE: Should the (inaudible)

WATTERS: Yeah. She is being criticized for being arrogant and egotistical, so she -- she's gonna hold all of her events in diners. I mean, this is so clumsy and so Clintonian, just to overreact like that.

GUTFELD: I -- they keep saying this is historic which is sexist. It is her historic. I don't understand why they keep saying that.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: The problem here is that, her biggest adversary is time. Which is basically their biggest adversary is her. The more she is in the public eye, the less popular she becomes, the less impatient -- the more impatient, the more flawed, the more vulnerable, my suggestion is she should pull a Rosie Ruiz (ph) and jump in, in the last mile -- in the mile of the race and get in because, the more the public sees of her, the less they like. And what does it say about the Democratic Party when her only plus is her gender. It is insulting to women to think that their analysis of politics stops at a chromosome. You know, they're just gonna vote for the dame. (ph)

WATTERS: Well listen, I mean she is going to play the gender card, remember she cried the last time when she was in New Hampshire and she won pretty handily. Now, if I was running her announcement, what I would is team up with my Hollywood, I would shoot Hillary through as a glass ceiling, and the glass ceiling shatter.

GUILFOYLE: That's terrible.

WATTERS: Have a little cape over the pant suit. You know it really make a big impression. Don't you think that's a good idea?

PERINO: I think that they should consider signing you up.

WATTERS: I think so.

PERINO: I mean, you have some good ideas. Remember in the A block I said that --

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: That was terrible.

PERINO: That Rand --

WATTERS: I like that idea.

WILLIAMS: No, I like the way Dana handled it.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: It was like yes, fool, now let's move on.

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: Dana.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: That's why Dana is a professional, that's why I'm here. You got to give the girl a credit.

PERINO: Can I make a point?

WATTERS: Sure.

PERINO: OK. In the A block I said that one of Rand Paul's best attributes is authenticity. I think that actually her biggest problem.

WATTERS: Right.

PERINO: Is that, her personal friends, people that worked for her for long years will say to you, no, really behind the scenes she is really great. That is not come across, and she does not come across as authentic. And if she is being authentic, people tend not to like her or not trust her. Every election is a character election and a trust election, Chris Taylor (ph) has taught me that for years. I think that Larry Sabato is on to something about Obama's approval ratings. He is now in the 40s. He needs to be in like the mid 50s for her to be at least historically, be able beat the odds which is that it is very difficult for a party to win a third term, and I think that will be also be her for the biggest problem. Regardless of the economy, a third Clinton term is not something that Americans would want right now, be (ph) at 40 percent.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: Will, will she is running for Obama's third term, maybe she should announce in Chicago or something like that, where -- right Juan? I mean --

WILLIAMS: Well, I was, could -- you know Dana.

WATTERS: Don't tell.

WILLIAMS: I think Dana raises the bar very high, because Dana wants her to trip and fall. But the fact is that if Obama is in the mid to upper 40s, she is fine and the key to sabotage (ph) statement was the economy, and I think that is really important. If Americans feel like things are going pretty well, then consumer confidence is high they will do well. In my state, for all of the criticism at this table by Hillary Clinton, her numbers are pretty good.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Everybody would just love dial up her number. She beats every Republican. She beats every Democrat.

WATTERS: Yeah, she actually doesn't beat every Republican.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: She is tied with Bush and within the margin of error with Rand Paul.

WILLIAMS: No.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Yes she is. Juan, take a look at the recent poll.

WILLIAMS: Oh, please.

GUILFOYLE: 45, 45 Jeb Bush.

WILLIAMS: Oh, get out of it.

PERINO: Rand Paul --

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: Rand Paul can actually beat her in Pennsylvania.

WATTERS: Kimberly, she poll tested everything.

GUILFOYLE: Sure.

WATTERS: She's got a new brand consultant image, consultant. It's gonna be really authentic candidacy, don't you think?

GUILFOYLE: Well, let's see how it all turns out in the Jell-O mold. But let me tell you something, people aren't going to forget, who the Clintons are, the loose relationship with the truth, the what difference does it make to complete abhorrent mishandling of Benghazi, her time during secretary of state. What successes is she going to be able to point to, to say this is why you should elect me, this is why it's gonna be different from what you basically turned ahead, you know turned away from with this administration. How is she going to sell it to the American people? Right now, she doesn't have that inherent trustworthiness, so that incredibility or that integrity and I think character is going to matter.

WILLIAMS: So you think her husband's popularity is the most popular politician --

PERINO: It is a great asset.

WATTERS: She should just gonna run on her husband's coat tails.

GUILFOYLE: Listen, yeah.

WATTERS: That is great for the first woman president --

WILLIAMS: No, no. I was telling you, you said --

GUILFOYLE: Like you get, like the k-mart coupon, two for the price of one.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Jesse said, oh, you know -- they are not going to forget the Clintons. Well (inaudible) is --

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: And Juan, you are saying you are hoping that Bill rubs off on Hillary.

WATTERS: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: I didn't say --

(LAUGHTER)

WATTERS: Brother in (inaudible) take a surprising stance on marijuana legalization and the 2016 presidential election, details next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: Marijuana appears to be growing into a big issue ahead of the 2016 election, with the new poll proving why. In the three swing states of Ohio, Florida and Pennsylvania, pot legalization is more popular than any potential 2016 presidential contender. The shifting public attitude presents some unique challenges for 2016 candidates as they attempt to navigate a tricky issue and one, that could help turn out Democrats and next year's -- next cycle election. Greg, how did we get to this point?

GUTFELD: It's terrible. Here's a joke. What do you call a drug dealer before 1914?

PERINO: I don't know, doctor?

GUTFELD: A pharmacist. It's the drug laws that created the illegal drug industry. You can't outlaw desire for the oblivious. You can only control it in a market, because if you don't, then you create a black market.

So it's not about getting high on pot. I do not like pot. We have a country that is high on regulatory laws. These are laws that are filling up jails, and they're filling up jails so quickly that the real violent types are now on the street. Regulatory laws are laws that are based on a hypothetical harm that hasn't happened. Not real harm, but hypothetical consequences.

The irony is, is that the regulatory law actually creates problems, whereas the hypothetical crime never happens. For example, Eric Garner had been in and out of jail tons of times. It was pure revolving door fashion, due to pointless regulatory laws. He dies because he was selling loosies. No cop really wanted to arrest him for that. It was a regulatory...

PERINO: That wasn't even a cop?

GUTFELD: Yes. It was a regulatory law that forced police to go after a loose cigarette that ended up in Eric Garner's death.

If you remove these stupid laws that are based on hypothetical consequences, you have less -- fewer people in jail, and you have more violent people in prison. It's not about pot; it's about the laws.

PERINO: Could you be persuaded, Jesse, to support this if it is true, even though the revenue has been less than anticipated. But if we're going to legalize it and we're going to tax it, and it's going to pay for schools, could you be persuaded?

WATTERS: Well, it's funny that you want to tax pot to pay for schools. People get dumber when they smoke pot, and then you're going to educate them afterwards.

GUILFOYLE: The irony.

WATTERS: I mean, it's -- in Colorado they did it. And I don't have a problem with it. And part of being a parent is being a hypocrite. I smoked pot growing up. Do I want my kids doing it? Absolutely not.

But in Colorado they tried it, and more power to them. This is a democracy. And even the Democratic governor there regrets it. The revenue wasn't there. It never really came in. You have lots of edibles. People coming in from out of state eating the brownies, diving off balconies.

PERINO: The emergency room visits.

WATTERS: People going to the emergency rooms. DUIs are up. You know, it's trickling down to elementary school. So I don't really know if it's working out that well.

PERINO: Let me ask Kimberly this. I'm going to read to you first from an excerpt from Bill Bennett's new book. It's called "Going to Pot." He writes, on page 77, "We know that the three factors that most affect youth drug use are perceived risk and social acceptability, availability and cost. And legalization will negatively affect all three factors."

You've been against legalization for a while. Is that why?

GUILFOYLE: Well, I mean, I think that's a persuasive argument. But then what disturbs me, to be quite honest. Yes, I come from a perspective of being a prosecutor. You ask me to put the political hat on, I see the three swing states favor marijuana legalization. And that's going to be very tough in 2016 if you have people come out strongly to support that for someone to then be able to also get that vote in for themselves for the presidential election.

And as a prosecutor working, you know, in the D.A.'s office in Los Angeles, in gang units, and in San Francisco, I really saw a negative impact with drugs, with marijuana, in fact, getting them started, people got involved with. So from that perspective, from the criminal perspective, yes, I don't believe that the right thing to do is to legalize it.

PERINO: But Juan would say that the right thing to do -- and I'll let you describe it -- is to decriminalize it altogether so that you don't have that problem. Are you saying that you're not -- are you not worried about the other problems, like Bill Bennett suggests?

WILLIAMS: I'm not. And, you know, the polls that Kimberly is telling you about from a political perspective, they're overwhelming. Americans are, like, over this. They're much like Greg, like Greg's position, which is we've got too much regulation. We have too many people in jail in what people consider to be a benign drug, marijuana.

GUILFOYLE: These are important. Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

WILLIAMS: Yes, it could. But how are you going to run. Even among Republicans, Dana, there's...

GUILFOYLE: I know.

WILLIAMS: ... there's a hunger to say, "Look, get this off the table. Get it out of here."

PERINO: Here is where I think it could be interesting. Hillary Clinton says that she supports medical marijuana for people who are in extreme medical conditions. She hasn't come out for legalization of marijuana. And I think she's going to have to take a position on it.

But I believe that one place where men and women are going to differ in the upcoming election is on legalization of marijuana. I think there will be a strong contingent of women who say, "Let's think this through before we just..."

WILLIAMS: Well, it could be, but I mean, I'm telling you, right now if you look at the polls, it's overwhelming. Americans are at a point -- you know how we changed on gay marriage. I think there's a big sea change that's taken place with regard to marijuana because there's too many people...

WATTERS: Have you seen "Watters' World." I saw a guy who was stoned the other day. I said when was -- when was George Washington president? And he said 1983.

GUTFELD: By the way, that's not science, Jesse. And it doesn't matter if it happens to be wrong. You can't ban something because you feel that it is wrong. There are more people that died from the drug war than drugs. We know this. We've seen that this doesn't work. And there is no actual - - there's no logic behind it.

GUILFOYLE: But what about young people getting -- having easier access to something?

GUTFELD: Young people have access to everything. And they have more access now to pot than they do cigarettes.

WILLIAMS: Yes. And don't forget alcohol.

And Dana -- so Dana, what did you think about what Greg said?

PERINO: I would say I'm conflicted on this issue. And I lean more...

GUILFOYLE: Lean with me.

PERINO: ... against the legalization. I'm leaning with you. And that's why I say that there could be a gender gap on this issue.

So if you're a pollster out there, if you could poll that.

WILLIAMS: I'm leaning with Watters. I want to go get high with Watters.

WATTERS: Let's go, Juan. I'm high right now.

GUILFOYLE: Acting like it.

PERINO: I cannot endorse that. But I'm asking pollsters, if you are asking the question, can you please find out if there's a gender gap on legalization of marijuana and send it to me?

All right. Up next, jury deliberations are underway in the Boston marathon bombing trial. If convicted should the jury sentence Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to life in prison or death? The debate when "The Five" returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: So as the jury decides what to do with the remaining Boston bomber, known here as "scum bucket," remember what he did. He gleefully placed a bomb next to a child, then set it off. I forgot one part. He left. He didn't even stick around to see the outcome, which means he intended to survive.

So what does that mean? His survival means it is our responsibility to make sure that he experiences what he ran from. It is not simply to enact justice, but to do something rare. Make the punishment fit the crime for once.

Now we tailor everything these with upgrades: when you fly, when you stay at hotels, when you rent a car. It is no longer one size fits all. There are over 87,000 drink combinations at Starbucks. At Chipotle, thanks to an array of flavors and ingredients, you can have 60,000 different meals.

Why aren't we that creative with our justice system? We spend more effort on their last meals. I'm not talking about killing the runt, but taking his life every single day until he dies of natural causes. That means a room where he sits alone, surrounded by giant screens depicting the mutilations of his mayhem, up close, full volume, in color for decades until his death.

It's not just justice. It's just punishment, for he then lives his dream. It's not 72 virgins; it's 96 tears. That dream is called hell. And if you don't believe in hell as part of the afterlife, as I don't, then it must be created here on Earth. Because then what's the point?

So they haven't -- they haven't decided his punishment, Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Well, his attorney, Ms. Clarke, did not put any issue up as to whether or not he is the person, you know, responsible that committed these crimes. They pretty much conceded his involvement and his guilt.

The whole tactic here is to try to create some level of distance between him and his brother to say that he was not, like, the primary participant, that he was more, you know, convinced...

GUTFELD: Yes.

GUILFOYLE: ... or led by his brother. So it's going to come down to the death penalty. So if he gets convicted then the same 12 people are going to hear the case and decide what the fit punishment. And just -- they need to decide one factor in aggravation, heinousness of the crime, premeditation, vulnerableness [SIC] of the victim. There are so many it is replete. If there is ever a case that cries out for the death penalty it is this one, and he should get it.

GUTFELD: Juan, I believe that the death penalty lacks creativity. Our justice system lacks creativity. Why can't -- an eye for an eye seems very underrated.

WILLIAMS: By you?

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: I mean, I'm a person who believes in mercy. And I think he's a horrible guy.

GUILFOYLE: What mercy does he show?

WILLIAMS: I didn't argue that point.

GUILFOYLE: Blowing up and murdering children.

WILLIAMS: Listen, I think he's a horrible person, and he did a horrible thing. But I also think he's a very young person. And the argument that his lawyers will make, to Kimberly's point, is that he was influenced by the older brother, who's dead.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: So I don't know if it's true or not. But that's the case. But you know, it seems to me like he's going to jail. And the hell you described, you are very creative, son. That was something. That was a hell -- you know, he's going to live in hell. He's never getting out of jail. I don't know what we're trying to prove here.

GUTFELD: But let me turn it to Jesse. Hell -- I mean, jail isn't bad for humans once they adapt.

GUILFOYLE: No, it's not.

GUTFELD: Humans can adapt to anything. But you've got to create a punishment that is unadaptable, that every day it's a surprise.

WATTERS: You want cruel and unusual punishment.

GUTFELD: Exactly!

WATTERS: Maybe you and Rand Paul can have an amendment. The press has covered the gay wedding pizza more than this guy. And this guy -- this guy is a Muslim immigrant student pot dealer, tried to punish America for going into Iraq. Imagine if this guy had been a gun-toting Tea Party guy.

If all the satellite trucks, all the mainstream media up there, camped out at this courthouse, you know, why doesn't anybody ask Elizabeth Warren does this guy deserve the death penalty? Hillary Clinton: "Does this guy deserve the death penalty?

GUTFELD: Fair point, yes.

WATTERS: I say Boston strong, eye for an eye. You know, fry him or whatever Greg wants to do to him, I'm with.

GUTFELD: Yes. We'll never change. He's going to end up, you know -- he's going to end up either life in jail or death penalty, which I think is not right..

PERINO: I think-- I think there is merit to what you are saying. There has to be consequences. I do think that the appeal, even if he were to get the death penalty, he's not going to suffer.

What you are suggesting is he should have to pay for his crimes in a way that maybe wears down, maybe wears his mind down or his heart down or something. I like the idea. I actually think...

WATTERS: I think you're onto something.

PERINO: ... that people who are against the death penalty, which there are many from both side of the aisle, that this type of punishment might be something that they could agree with. Maybe not every day for the rest of his life.

GUTFELD: It's an education. He lives his -- he lives his dream. Why can't we do that?

WILLIAMS: I thought you were talking about a trip to the dentist.

GUTFELD: Yes. All right. We've got to move on. Next on "The Five," baristas and bachelor's degrees. Starbucks sweetens its college tuition program. Should more companies follow their lead? Details when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: Starbucks may soon find itself as famous for bachelor's degrees as it is for Frappuccinos. The coffee giant's doubling its free college tuition plan for employees who work at least 20 hours a week. It will cover a full four years. Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz explains why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD SCHULTZ, STARBUCKS CEO: The last few years in America we certainly have seen a fracturing of what I would loosely describe as the American dream or the American promise.

We are employing over 100,000 young people in America, and the majority of them do not have a college degree. We can't be a bystander. And we can't wait for Washington. Businesses and business leaders must do more for their people and more for the communities they serve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: So do plans like this, in general, make sense for companies, more so than, let's say, a minimum wage? So Kimberly...

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: ... is in my ear while I'm trying to do my job for you FOX viewers, saying Princeton?

GUILFOYLE: I want to go back to Starbucks and get a barista job and get, like, a Ph.D.

WILLIAMS: We're not talking about Princeton. It's Arizona State.

GUILFOYLE: No, but it's online. Right.

GUTFELD: Online.

GUILFOYLE: So guess what? That's good. It's affordable. This is something that Starbucks can do. I don't think it is a bad idea. Why not? If someone is interested and they want to be able to get a degree, and that can help them better themselves, fantastic.

WILLIAMS: OK, OK.

GUILFOYLE: It's a helping hand, versus a handout.

WILLIAMS: You are the "A" student at the table, Ms. Lawyer.

GUILFOYLE: Dana, too.

WILLIAMS: All right. But...

WATTERS: What about me and Greg? What do we get, "D's"?

WILLIAMS: You are the stoner at the table. Did you hear -- did you hear my question?

GUILFOYLE: You're Spicoli. Yes.

WILLIAMS: My question is, is it better than a minimum wage and raising the minimum wage?

GUILFOYLE: I like it.

WILLIAMS: You like it better?

GUILFOYLE: I'm all in.

WILLIAMS: What about you, Jesse Watters?

WATTERS: I think in order to be able to talk about racism with customers, you need to go to college, because apparently, that's where they teach you America is racist. And Arizona State University is, like, the hottest school with the sexiest girls in the country.

PERINO: It's online.

WATTERS: That's what I'm saying, though. So it's like the equivalent of like reading "Playboy" in braille. It's, like, a total waste.

GUILFOYLE: What are you talking about?

WATTERS: It's like you get to go to Arizona State, but it's just online. So you can't go. Come on.

WILLIAMS: You think people never look at naked women online?

WATTERS: I don't know about you, Juan.

WILLIAMS: On to Dana. Dana, is this a good plan, or does this upset you and conservatives?

PERINO: I love this idea. I love it because it's totally free market idea. One of the things Howard Schultz says is you can't wait for Washington. Exactly. So the free market, he wants to find the best possible baristas for his stores.

WILLIAMS: Right.

PERINO: And this is a good way to attract people who really want to work hard. And studies have shown that people who work part-time jobs and go to school end up doing better at both. And over the long run, yes, it is better than raising the minimum wage as a mandate for, like, a dollar or something, because over time they will earn a lot more in their life if they have a college degree.

WILLIAMS: I need a cynic.

GUTFELD: OK.

WILLIAMS: I need somebody who's going to say this is ridiculous. Starbucks is just playing political games. And I know a cynic.

GUTFELD: Yes, absolutely. You know what this is? It's the equivalent of buying your wife flowers because you got drunk the night before and threw up all over the living room.

This is because they had such an embarrassment over "Race Together" that they're trying -- they're doing this. But that still doesn't make it a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. I agree with you.

WILLIAMS: Oh, look at this.

GUTFELD: However, I think this isn't going to solve the bigger problem. They have to find a way to lower these tuitions, which have tripled in two decades. Basically, the loans -- the student loans have inflated the costs of all the tuitions, and that's a balloon that's about to burst.

WILLIAMS: Well, this is unbelievable. "The Five" liked this idea.

PERINO: Try again tomorrow.

WILLIAMS: "One More Thing" is coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: Welcome back. It's time now for "One More Thing." Miss Dana.

PERINO: OK. So I have something a little embarrassing to tell you about and show you. So I'm going to -- this book that Greg signed...

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: ... the book I wrote, OK, so it's coming out in two weeks. And I've been afraid to look inside, because every book always has one error. And I didn't know what it was going to be. But then I let Greg read the captions, and I'll show you what he found.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: "Grey Gutfeld"? Grey Gutfeld.

PERINO: I'm so sorry.

GUTFELD: The guy that edited your book edited my book and doesn't even know the name.

PERINO: No, no, no. We all missed it. Blame me.

GUTFELD: Grey Gutfeld. Do not buy this book.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God.

PERINO: So embarrassing. And I'm so sorry.

GUTFELD: That's what they do for a living. You do this book. You're supposed to catch those things. That's amazing. That's like a surgeon who leaves a sponge inside somebody's body. Idiots.

PERINO: They're going to catch it for the next printing. But if you get one, you could see Greg's name spelled wrong.

GUILFOYLE: But why that?

GUTFELD: You know that in my first book...

GUILFOYLE: You should have done "I Hate These People."

GUTFELD: Yes, anyway.

PERINO: No, but you haven't found that other part.

GUTFELD: What?

PERINO: In your first book.

GUTFELD: They spelled my name wrong on the back cover.

GUILFOYLE: Your name is just the problem. What can I say?

All right. Jesse, what do you have?

WATTERS: OK. Would you want...

GUILFOYLE: Spicoli.

WATTERS: ... President Obama around your children?

GUILFOYLE: What? What?

WATTERS: After watching this video the answer is clearly no.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Oh, no. It's a bee. That's OK, guys. Bees are good. They won't land on you. They won't sting you. They'll be OK.

Hold on! Hold on! You guys are wild things. You're not supposed to be scared of bees.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: Ladies and gentlemen, this man is a clear and present danger. I have one word: Impeachment.

GUTFELD: Jesse, clearly, he still loves drones.

GUILFOYLE: I mean...

PERINO: I feel bad for the president.

GUILFOYLE: This is an interesting show to say the least.

Well, when in doubt, when you need to raise the level of play for this show, you bring in the royals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRINCE HARRY, UNITED KINGDOM: No, I hate selfies. Seriously, you need to get out of it. I know you're young. Selfies are bad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: See? Now can you like Prince Harry? Because he is down with the selfies. He does not like it. He says no way. Just say no.

BASH: The queen did. The queen took a selfie.

GUILFOYLE: Well, yes, that's true. Uh-oh.

GUTFELD: All right. Everybody thinks that their baby is beautiful. Like, oh, it's the most beautiful baby in the world. That's not always the case. I have my neighbors, just gave birth to a lovely boy and it's -- just take a look.

GUILFOYLE: This is so mean.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(PUG DOG BEING GIVEN A PACIFIER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: I mean, look at that.

WILLIAMS: What a dog.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God. You scared me.

GUTFELD: You thought I was going to show a really ugly baby?

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Yes. And I was so upset, because it would be so mean.

GUTFELD: Adorable baby. All right.

GUILFOYLE: Well, who's going to put that in their mouth now?

GUTFELD: He fell asleep.

GUILFOYLE: Juan.

WILLIAMS: So you know what? So yesterday was opening day of baseball. And now all 30 Major League Baseball parks require that you have to be scanned or go through a metal detector to get in the ballpark. So the lines, as you can see there, at Yankee Stadium out of this world. Long lines everywhere. I don't know what's going to happen. I guess people have to show up earlier. It's getting to be like the NFL around here.

PERINO: Thanks Obama.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. All right. Set your DVRs so you never miss an episode of "The Five." That's it for us. "Special Report" is next.

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