Rolling Stone's 'journalistic failure'

Magazine retracts discredited University of Virginia rape story


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," April 6, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Greg Gutfeld along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Jesse Watters and she once fell down a silly straw, it's Dana Perino and this is "The Five."

So what makes a great story? When the villain turns out to be good and then the good turns out to be bad. The Rolling Stone rape hoax is that story.

The villains were originally the frat boys who were accused of rape and the hero of course was the writer who nailed them. Now it is reversed. After a comprehensive review, the magazine has retracted the fake piece on this alleged gang rape at UVA frat, a piece that led to outrage, marches, vandalism and a shocked media.


BRIAN WILLIAMS, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS" ANCHOR: A major American university tonight has a lot to answer for now, the claims of a particularly shocking sexual assault that have made public.

CECILIA VEGA, "ABC WORLD NEWS" TONIGHT ANCHOR: An extraordinary move on one of America's most prestigious campuses: The University of Virginia shutting down all fraternities as it investigates sexual assault claims.

PAULA FARIS, ABC "GOOD MORNING AMERICA" SHOW CO-HOST: We move now to the crisis on campus, this after a very disturbing sexual assault allegation and one of America's most prominent colleges.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The shocking allegations of sexual assault on campus. They were exposed in a Rolling Stone article and have led the university to suspend all fraternity and sorority activity.


GUTFELD: Now, we all know that its baloney and it's the aloof publisher, the agenda-driven writer and the staff who are really at fault in all this. It is like a perfect "Law and Order" episode that you will never see, because it is true, which is why no one is going to get punished.

Let's quote the review, "the story's failure does not require Rolling Stone to change their editorial systems." Is that unbelievable? That is like a restaurant saying, we are not changing our hygiene practices after every diner gets the runs. It's like me not changing the locks after someone photographs me sleeping. The magazine says they were tricked by the accuser, but they were tricked by their own biases. They wanted to believe. You've heard the saying "it is too good to be true"? This story was too good to be fact checked.

And what of future victims? Will anyone ever believe them? We used to hate hoaxes, but now of course, they raise awareness. Even if it didn't happen there at UVA, it probably happened somewhere, for if it is credible, then truth is irrelevant. The boy who cried wolf is now the magazine who prints hoax. And to Jann Wenner -- the owner --it's just an honest mistake until one day it happens to him.

So Kimberly, interesting fact, OK, so this fraternity claims they were going to pursue all available legal action. How is that possible, A, if
they are a collective group and B, no one can say they are falsely accused,
because Rolling Stone smartly didn't use any names.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: No, that's a great point --

GUTFELD: Thank you.

GUILFOYLE: But unless you are a specifically named individual, how are you
going to say that you have been a grief (ph) or you have been harmed --


GUILFOYLE: What are your damages, right?


GUILFOYLE: So that's what you have to prove in a case like this. However
perhaps, the fraternity itself could go forward with the case, because they
were named. So perhaps, that is a legal avenue or recourse that they could
take. These cases are tough, but it matters. It may be a case in some
respects of first impression for the courts to see how they can kind of
factor some kind of -- you know lawsuit, remedy to address it, but this all
stems from media negligence, right? I mean, in some ways -- a media
malfeasance. They knew better, should have fact checked it, they should be
held to a higher standard. So if there is a way to kind of course correct
and establish precedence, this would be a good way to do it.

GUTFELD: Yeah, this is the funny thing Juan, about this review. They were
reviewing, I guess its fact checking process, but there were -- how can you
review something that didn't exist? What could they fact check? There was
one source that nobody talked to, but one person. We don't even know who
the source is. They were -- they giving -- they did not interview any of
the people that were accused. So how -- why did it take so long? It's so
obviously made up.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: You know it is just incredible to me,
the level of bad journalism that is on display here, it's just criminal.




WILLIAMS: But now, as I understand that the fact checker did speak to, with
like the lady who ran the rape crisis center on the campus. But I got to
tell you, you know who first told me about this, was Brit Hume. Brit Hume
is a UVA graduate, I don't know if you know that, and Brit was like in a
fury about this. And then the Washington Post got on to this, T. Rees
Shapiro, started asking people, you know what about this -- could not find


WILLIAMS: So when a real reporter gets on the story, all of a sudden, comes
up empty. I will say this. I think fraternities are public institutes. So
you know what? I'm not sure what their basis is for a lawsuit, Kimberly.
And second thing is, I don't know that --

GUILFOYLE: Reputation (ph) damage.

WILLIAMS: Well, I don't know that a fraternity into wants a deep dive by an
opposing lawyer into all the parties, the fights, the drugs, the drinking
that went on at the frat house, and that's going to come up.

GUILFOYLE: But that's the different --

GUTFELD: It's like --

GUILFOYLE: That's a cost-benefit analysis. It's not whether or not they
have legal recourse.

WILLIAMS: No, they might. But I'm just saying, you know, if you are
advising them, maybe you will say, you know what boys? Let's move on.

GUILFOYLE: You've got skeletons in your closet --


GUILFOYLE: It doesn't mean that they weren't agree, it's just like that
they don't stop.

WILLIAMS: No. I mean, and you know what? To your point, by the way, what
happened at Penn State? They have pictures. I mean those things --


WILLIAMS: Do happen --


WILLIAMS: In frat houses --



GUTFELD: -- and yeah, that's a good point. Jesse, OK. Rolling Stone --


GUTFELD: Not firing anybody.


GUTFELD: And I don't think even the reports suggest that they should. Were
they being soft in Rolling Stone because, you know it is a profoundly
influential leftist magazine?

WATTERS: Sure, I mean the only place with more job security than the
federal government is working at Rolling Stone. I mean --

GUILFOYLE: Good to know.

WATTERS: You know, you can get fired at Rolling Stone, we did some
research, we found out someone wrote a bad album review of a Hootie and the
Blowfish album, they got fired. OK. So you can push a fake rape claim, but
don't write anything about Hootie. And then so, she also didn't apologize -


WATTERS: To the fraternity. And you know what? I don't think she is
actually sorry. OK? I actually think that if she got this opportunity,
she'll do it again. I mean, she is still on the payroll at Rolling Stone
and these guys are on probation. Now, I did hear she is working on a new
story. Its Brian Williams helicopter actually was --


WATTERS: Shot down in Iraq. So I think she is still looking for her
sources. But the real problem is now, Rolling Stones in a glass house.


WATTERS: Anytime, anyone does anything, cheats, lies, steals, they can't
say all these persons got to be fired. They are totally handcuffed. And
actually, you can't fire someone like this. She knows where all bodies are
buried, like you said she is cog (ph) in this propaganda machine. She is
like James Carville with long hair. You need this person --

GUILFOYLE: Interesting.

WATTERS: You need this person to make this system work.

GUTFELD: I find that quite attractive.


GUTFELD: James Carville with long hair.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Or any hair.

GUTFELD: Or any hair. Dana, that --

PERINO: Kidding, James.

GUTFELD: That was just cruel.

PERINO: Kidding.

GUTFELD: No, he doesn't have any hair. -- do you think she would have
treated the story differently? The reporter, if she just done one initial
step, which is empathy. Like, what if this -- what if the people that were
being accused were my brother or my father? She empathize with the
fabulous, as Jann Wenner called PKP (ph) alleged victim, he called her
fabulous. What if she thought -- you know what? This could be my brother in
that fraternity?

PERINO: You are doing wage much -- you are doing a lot more thinking than
she ever did. So they do this report but, one of the things I thought was
interesting is that the initial -- note -- her initial note about what the
story she wanted to write is that this was a fishing expedition.


PERINO: She writes in the pitch to her editors, I want to write this story


PERINO: And I am going to go find and it happens somewhere.


PERINO: So basically, she put the horse -- the cart before the horse. And
then she was filling up the cart with all this stuff and it overturns on a
gravel road.


PERINO: Just kidding. So, the thing also is she -- she said she has a 20-
year career in investigative journalism. At that point, maybe she was -- if
she wanted to write something like this, but she is such a good writer, why
didn't Rolling Stone just label it as fiction? Because I think the story --
people probably still would have read the story, wouldn't have the
consequences that they ended up with and it was fiction. So that not would
have been true.

GUTFELD: Yeah. But -- well, you know what? But Dana, it wouldn't carry the
same -- you know, impact on the, on the -- on the rape on campus story,
which was, which was gaining so much momentum based on some faulty (ph) --

PERINO: Right. It's probably would have done the --

GUTFELD: Statistic (ph).

PERINO: The Nightly News. But at least then, she could have made the point
that she sought out to make --


PERINO: And not besmirch anyone's particular reputation and risk a lawsuit
for the magazine.

GUTFELD: Yeah. If you see -- Kimberly, the story came out. A lot of people
knew it was fishy. Richard Bradley, who is a journalist, was one of the
first people to say OK, something's up and yet Erik Wemple at the
Washington Post. A lot of these guys got grief (ph) for. I think Bradley
got beat up Gawker. I think the people saying --


GUTFELD: How dare you do this? But even the reporter expressed doubt about
the story when she first heard the victim. How -- did they -- how did
people continue to buy this, when they knew at the start something smell

GUILFOYLE: Well I think if people were afraid to go against this claim,
right? Because then, you would be against women, you wouldn't be taking
crimes --


GUILFOYLE: Against women seriously or the idea of rape on campuses in
America, seriously right. So you don't want to be the one to be the
naysayer, because then there is something wrong with you. It doesn't fit
the politically correct kind of mode that the -- you know, mainstream media
find themselves championing these days and that's a problem, because you
are going to lose out, you will not have the benefit of good journalism or
good ethics. If you are not going to have people out to the question these
stories and instead, are part of the problem pushing the narrative.

WILLIAMS: You know what? Hold on a second you guys. I mean --

GUILFOYLE: You didn't like that Juan?

WILLIAMS: Rolling Stone definitely egregious journalistic practice. There's
just no getting away from it. But I think historically, women have had a
problem with being ignored when it comes to sexual violence, and we
shouldn't down play that.

GUILFOYLE: I -- that is not what I'm saying --

PERINO: That's not what she was doing.

GUILFOYLE: I want to be very clear that I am a sex crimes prosecutor and a
champion of crime against women, putting the people away that commit them
and against children. I take it very seriously.


GUILFOYLE: What I'm saying now is people are paying attention and then
perhaps, there's a little bit of reluctance to be the one to question.
Because let me tell you something, some of the greatest harm is done when
false allegations and claims are made --


GUILFOYLE: Because blowback from that can be this astonishing in slightly
in terms of women that wanting to come forward to tell their story.

WILLIAMS: Yes, and I think that is part of the consequence of this story.
Because now, everybody is like up in arms like, oh, it was all a hoax. And
I -- you know, I just can't imagine what is going on with the woman who was
the prime -- supposedly the victim in this. I don't know what's going on,
because she deceived her friends as well, who were part of the story and
the police department then gets involved.

GUTFELD: But you know what? That's a dumb raises a really great point. Has
anybody ever figured out what actually happened?

WILLIAMS: I don't know.

GUTFELD: Whenever, whenever we do this story we have to always say --

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: We are not saying nothing happened. Everybody who does this story
has to say that.

GUILFOYLE: Disclaimer.


GUTFELD: We have the disclaimer. But no one is actually found out what

WILLIAMS: Well no, no, the police, the police went after that.


WILLIAMS: And the police -- they use the same caveat that you just laid
out. Which is well, as far as we can tell -- we have gone to the end of the
investigative path --

WILLIAMS: We can't find anything --


GUILFOYLE: They say we haven't been able to find information --


GUILFOYLE: To back it up.


GUILFOYLE: And yeah, establishing claim.

WILLIAMS: So therefore, we are not saying that we don't --

GUILFOYLE: But we don't --

WILLIAMS: That nothing happened. But we can't find anything, and -- that is
where the journalistic malpractice comes in as Greg is complaining about.
But wait a second, why didn't she talk to the cops? You know, why didn't
she talk to the guys? You know, she even -- she said that the woman
couldn't even spell what the guy's name is. She said she was going out with
him. That is crazy.

WATTERS: Well, it is journalistic malpractice. And I think it's funny
because, we are holding Rolling Stone up to this huge high standard.

PERINO: Right.

WATTERS: Rolling Stone -- I mean, they are like The Daily Show of print
journalism. It's not a --

GUTFELD: That is a compliment really.


WATTERS: This is not a serious outfit. They're, they're take down artists.
They are in the business to take people down. They took down Christie (ph).
They tried to take down O'Reilly. They tried to take down Bachmann, that's
what they do. They say their editorial systems failed? I actually think
their editorial systems work, that's how they want things. They want things
loose. They don't want strict controls. They don't like fact checking. I
think this is how they operate.

GUTFELD: Also, you left out the Tsarnaev cover where they turned a
terrorist into a teddy bear.

PERINO: That was my point. I was going to say this is a magazine that got
away with glorifying a domestic terrorist -- an Islamic terrorist who
actually on trial right now, by putting his glamour shot --


PERINO: Up on the magazine and they took absolutely no blowback from
except, for on this show.


PERINO: You lead the way.

GUTFELD: That is true. I was very upset about that and I still am. Can I
ask you something believably (ph)? Do you think the writer didn't apologize


GUTFELD: To this fraternity, to avoid being sued?


GUILFOYLE: Yes. Thank you Dana --

PERINO: I'm sorry.

GUILFOYLE: For being my co-counsel on "The Five." She is here all week.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah. I mean, of course, because it is an admission, and then
you don't want anything used against you, right? I mean, you can't. She
said it, and you would be the right polite thing to do, if you want to win
the Ms. Courtesy award.


GUILFOYLE: But if you are not into that, and you don't want to be sued --


WILLIAMS: They didn't pay, but they, they authorized Columbia journalism
review to do this review, right? Columbia Journalism and it comes back and
says you guys screwed up royally. Isn't that -- that will be the basis?

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, but that's them, that's them trying to like save face at
this point and --


PERINO: And to save their -- they are trying to save their Bachmann from a


GUILFOYLE: That's true.

WATTERS: I mean if they go is bankrupt --

WILLIAMS: That was true.

WATTERS: Through to a lawsuit is anybody even going to notice? I mean their
circulation -- as better circulation, Family Circle.

GUTFELD: No, you know that.

PERINO: I love that magazine.


GUTFELD: You know who has better circulation, Larry King.


GUILFOYLE: I was going to say The Golden Girls.

GUTFELD: Yeah. Sabrina Rubin Erdel -- Erdely is that the writers name? She
will get a book deal. How much you want to bet on?

WILLIAMS: Oh, come on.

GUTFELD: Everybody gets a book deal.

WILLIAMS: Oh, that will be disgusting.

GUTFELD: No matter what.

WILLIAMS: For what?

GUTFELD: You know what Rolling Stone does to do? They do investigative
reports, take on corporations and politicians. They should do an -- I think
expos, on Rolling Stone. They should treat Rolling Stone the way they
treated the fraternity. That will take real cojones (ph), but I'm not even
sure what that means. By the way, last -- last month, Us Weekly had to
retract a story that claimed to be an exclusive interview with Kendall
Jenner and I knew you are upset when we found out that it was fake, that's
another Jann Wenner product that is in deep trouble, so maybe it's time for
him to rethink his journalistic scruples.


GUTFELD: Well that ended softly. Coming up, President Obama fights back
against critics of his nuclear deal with Iran, and finally defines his
foreign policy doctrine, next on "The Five."

PERINO: Six years in his presidency, President Obama has defined the
doctrine that guides his foreign policy decisions, like making a risky deal
with a country like Iran.


enough to be able to test these propositions without putting ourselves at

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's interesting.

OBAMA: And -- and that's the thing that sometimes as I hear these debates
going on, people don't seem to understand. We're walking these negotiations
and everybody knows that we got the most fire power. And -- and we're not
relinquishing our capacity to defend ourselves or our allies. In that
situation, why wouldn't we test it? You asked about an Obama doctrine. The
doctrine is we will engage, but we preserve all our capabilities.


PERINO: And in the interview with the New York Times, the president called
for the framework, an agreement. He called it a once in a lifetime
opportunity, even if Iran can't be trusted to hold up its end of the deal.


OBAMA: The nuclear deal that we have put together is not based on the idea
that somehow the regime changes. It is a good deal even if Iran doesn't
change at all. Even for somebody who believes, as I suspect Prime Minister
Netanyahu believes, that there is no difference between Burhani, the
supreme leader and they are all adamantly -- you know anti-west and anti-
Israel and perineal (ph) liars and cheaters. Even if you believed all that,
this still would be the right thing to do.


PERINO: OK, Kimberly, you are -- uncomfortable with the president's

GUILFOYLE: Well, because it is nonsensical. You know --

PERINO: You didn't like it?


GUILFOYLE: They are good comments for a learned and educated man are they?
They don't make any sense to me that I don't think they make sense to
anyone unless you are just like a blind supporter of his. Why would you
make a deal until it wasn't a good one? Just to say you did it? Because
this is about an equal stroke --

PERINO: Well, he did say --

GUILFOYLE: And you pass (ph) yourself on the back?

PERINO: He does say in this interview, Greg that it is clear that in 20 --
that nuclear -- that Iran will not get a nuclear weapon on his watch --


PERINO: Which is in the next 20 months.


PERINO: What about the concerns like 10 years from now?


GUTFELD: That is not his problem. He's going to be -- God knows where. But,
his doctrine, what his doctrine is, legacy, I have two years left, that's
his doctrine. He is like a - he is like a vacation gambler and he has to
fly back home that next day, and he is at the Atlantis casino, and he is
just throwing the last $500 out there. He is trying to win as much as he
can, and what he is -- what he is counting on is Iran, because that is
going to be part of his big take home. He has got to have something that
justifies and otherwise, miserable -- I guess foreign policy.

PERINO: Foreign policy.

GUTFELD: And if you look at this agreement, it's -- there are more
disagreements since the agreement. Dealing with Iran is like engaging a
disheveled man on a bus. You want -- go over there, you offer him a
sandwich and then he say, I want your money and then he hit you. That
confrontation you never win.

PERINO: You'll never going to win it.


PERINO: Now, there is somebody --

GUTFELD: They are not.

PERINO: Benjamin Netanyahu, who has sort of sparred in the press with
President Obama up to now. He spoke on the Sunday shows yesterday, saying
that he is not convinced, this is a good deal.


doing what he thinks is good for the United States. But I think that we can
have a legitimate difference of opinion on this, because I think the Iran
is shown to be completely distrustful.

They are developing ICBMs, Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles that are
meant for one purpose only, to carry nuclear pay loads to a theater near
you. They are not intended for us. They already have missiles that reach
us. They are developing ICBMs to reach the United States.

PERINO: One of the things I read today, Jesse was that, twice before when
Israel has acted unilaterally in Syria and in -- I can't remember the other
place -- twice actually, to try to stop nuclear weapons (inaudible). Those
programs actually were halted, but our discussions and negotiations with
North Korea through the IAEA, actually have failed. So is there -- would
there be a legitimacy for Israel to move forward on its own?

WATTERS: Well, absolutely and it is funny that you bring up North Korea. I
think it was 1994 Bill Clinton came out and said the exact same things
President Obama is saying. He is saying you know they want this new
capability for energy, and they are going to agree to inspections and they
are going to rejoin the world community. But look what happened, you know
it -- the writings on the wall and this is what I don't understand. The
president has not been honest, OK? About a lot of things, about Obamacare,
about transparency, about no smidgen of corruption at the IRS, well of a
sudden we are supposed to believe everything he says about Iran, we know
it. I don't believe it, OK? I also -- when he says, you know, they crossed
the red line in Syria I'm going to do something, well, he didn't do
anything. And then he traded these -- you know he got these deserters out
of GITMO for -- you know, or get the Taliban guys out for a deserter, and
all of a sudden we are supposed to trust this deal making skills with Iran?
I mean, it's -- and he misses ISIS, and all of a sudden, he's going to say,
oh yeah, I'm all over the Iranian nuclear program.

PERINO: I have a feeling he's going to go on and on.

WATTERS: He's got a lot of evidence that he is on top of this at all.

PERINO: You really -- I mean really, if we could -- if we had an hour, you
could probably keep going --

WATTERS: I'm just getting started.

PERINO: Just got some examples. Juan, let me ask you about the American
hostages that are being held in Iran. Could -- do you think that the
administration dropped the ball on -- in this deal making not getting those
four individuals out?

WILLIAMS: No, but as John Kerry said --


WILLIAMS: That he raised this at every meeting.

PERINO: Right. So we're perfectly ineffective?

WILLIAMS: No, no, no, but this is not -- let me, you know either you guys
are all over the map here.

PERINO: No, we are not.

WILLIAMS: I like Jesse --

WATTERS: What not?

WILLIAMS: Going on and on. Jesse, Jesse has every hurt, every law,
everything he doesn't like about Obama, go Jesse, go.


WILLIAMS: But I must say he's not -- what we are trying to do here is to
prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons.


WILLIAMS: That's the deal. And I must say I hope that Republicans are
willing to listen. I see that the Wall Street Journal, at least that this
is a useful framework. I see Bob Corker, the senator Republican head of
Foreign Relations Committee. He says, you know, there is some good stuff in
here. I think lots of people are saying, this is more than we expected to
ever get out of the Iranians --

GUILFOYLE: But we have that (inaudible) --

WILLIAMS: And on the contrary response comes from Bibi Netanyahu saying,
they are going to attack the United States. That guy is going ballistic

WATTERS: No. He's not going ballistic.

WILLIAMS: Holy smokes.

WATTERS: Actually, let the Iranians keep all their ballistic missiles,
playing exactly what is --

WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He is going ballistic.

WATTERS: Juan, Juan, what is the underground bunker beneath the mountain
buried with --


WATTERS: A thousand spinning centrifuges --

WILLIAMS: Yeah. And why it was built?

WATTERS: With no spot on inspections.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. And why it was built?

WATTERS: We are allowing them to keep that?

WILLIAMS: No. You are not allowed -- you're allowing them to keep the
facility --


WILLIAMS: But not to keep it armed.

WATTERS: So what did they do on that facility, Juan? Isotopes? --

WILLIAMS: But they -- do you remember they --

WATTERS: Medical Isotopes?

WILLIAMS: Remember they built that out of fear of Israel coming, where
United States coming, Obama.

WATTERS: Yeah, they built it. We didn't even know about it until a few
years ago.

WILLIAMS: We all knew about it.

WATTERS: So all of a sudden, it's OK, after that, that's one of our pre-
conditions that wasn't?

WILLIAMS: You know you guys forget. Do you know -- you forget, the Barrack
Obama administration, the ones who did stocks next, who was undermining the
Iranians. We have been all over the Iranians, and now we have a deal with
the Iranians, but you are so angry with Obama, you don't even want to
acknowledge, you got conceal (ph).

WATTERS: They 75 percent of their centrifuges under the Obama
administration --

GUILFOYLE: We are angry about that.

WATTERS: Then all of a sudden he's telling that --

PERINO: I got to run guys.

WATTERS: He said, oh yeah, we're going to cut it out?

WILLIAMS: That's why we should stop them. You want to blame Obama or you
want to stop here --

WATTERS: Well I'm saying it all happened under his watch. And now he wants
to pamper (ph) himself from the back.

GUTFELD: The funny thing is -- the funny is -- you talk about how we got
the deal. The diplomatic framework is based on a nuclear threat. The reason
why the deal is happening is because they were building nuclear bombs.


GUTFELD: So we've -- the lesson we are teaching the world is if you start
building nukes --


GUTFELD: We will come to the table. A better strategy is a treat it like a
stand castle, and you walk over, you wait until there is almost done and
you kick it over.

PERINO: Which was my -- which was my point about Israel --


PERINO: Acting unilaterally. Thank you for bringing that to a closer.
Alright, another 2016 contender is about to launch its presidential
campaign. That is much more ahead on "The Five."


GUILFOYLE: Well, Rand Paul is getting ready to join the 2016 presidential
race with a big announcement planned for tomorrow in his home state of
Kentucky. The senator is hoping to lure a new generation of GOP voters and
is hoping to build some excitement with this video released today.


GRAPHIC: On April 7, a different kind of Republican will take on

CANDY CROWLEY, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: There's probably few candidates for
2016 that are more interesting than Rand Paul.

consistently principled person.

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR: The senator from Kentucky might just be
the candidate who ends up winning this thing.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: It's time for a new way, a new set of
ideas, a new leader, one you can trust, one who works for you, and above
all, it's time for a new president.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rand Paul! Rand Paul! Rand Paul!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rand Paul! Rand Paul! Rand Paul!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rand Paul! Rand Paul! Rand Paul!

GRAPHIC: On April 7 one leader will stand up to defeat the Washington
machine and unleash the American dream.


GUILFOYLE: OK. So a lot of buzz and anticipation about tomorrow
coming up. But Greg, what do you think about Rand Paul?

GUTFELD: He has my vote, because he's announcing his candidacy at the
Golf House. Do you know who else stayed at the Golf House Kentucky? Tom
Thumb. An explicit shout-out to the height-challenged like me.

Oddly, when a candidate starts running is when I don't buy anything,
because once they start announcing a candidacy, they speak in platitudes
and sound bites. It's when they're not running that it matters. Their
decisions matter. It's like the difference between courtship and marriage.
In courtship a guy will say anything, and marriage you gain 20 pounds.

So you've got to look at what he's been doing, not what he's saying
now. And that is his problem, because he keeps changing things. He says
this, and then he takes it back. And then he says stuff about vaccines,
and then he takes it back. I don't know about that.

GUILFOYLE: But don't all politicians have evolving viewpoints?

GUTFELD: I hate the word "evolving."

GUILFOYLE: OK. Well, you can ban it later in the show if it's really
going to make you feel better.

GUTFELD: I banned it years ago.

GUILFOYLE: Re-banned.

All right, Dana, so there's people excited. He seems to be able to
bridge across, you know, party lines. He's also done very well for himself
in different, you know, minority communities across different socioeconomic
groups, which is something that the Republican Party and the GOP needs to
do if they want to survive.

PERINO: Well, it is different to lead your first -- with your first
ad to be the Republican nominee, with Chris Matthews and Candy Crowley.


PERINO: That's different. It might work for him.

I do think he draws a broader group of people than the Republicans
might have seen before. I think that his pathway to the presidency is hard
to see, and so he's going to have a lot of convincing to do. But maybe
he'll start doing that tomorrow.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Well, what else do you think is positive in terms of
his viewpoints or message?

PERINO: I'm going to have to wait and see.

WATTERS: I have some positives. I'm not a huge Rand Paul guy, but
there are some positive things. I like how he talks about poverty and goes
to the black community and talks about that. I think that's brave;
courageous. I think he's a strict defender of the Constitution. He spent
a long time filibustering. I think that was 13 hours. I was impressed by

He's a doctor. He performs, you know, surgeries on people that are --
don't have the money to pay for it. I like that.

GUTFELD: I do that, too.

WATTERS: Yes, you do. What kind of surgery?

GUTFELD: In my garage.

WATTERS: Right. But you guys, he's got a tough path. He's not going
to be able to raise a lot of money. He's kind of short in stature. He's
got a funny haircut; doesn't speak with a lot of enthusiasm; and he kind of
weirds me out a little bit with the 10th Amendment, civil rights stuff. He
shot himself in the foot a few times on that. So he's going to have a
tough run, you know. In the debates, it's going to be funny, because he's
going to anchor the guys to the right about the Constitution.

GUTFELD: You said something about his height.

WILLIAMS: Yes. That's an odd theme for this segment.

WATTERS: I don't think it's presidential.

GUTFELD: You can't have short -- you can't have a short president?

WATTERS: I haven't seen one in a while. I'm not saying you can't be
president. I'm just saying I haven't seen one in a while.

GUILFOYLE: But should it matter what somebody's bringing to the
table, what their viewpoints, their ideas are...?

GUTFELD: If they can't reach the table.

GUILFOYLE: ... and if they can...

WILLIAMS: Or if their legs hang off the chair. This is going crazy
today. This show. Wait a minute, wait a minute. First of all, he's not
that short, you know.

WATTERS: Yes. I'm just saying he doesn't look like a president. He
looks like...

WILLIAMS: All right, all right.

WATTERS: ... guys we've had in the Oval Office before.

WILLIAMS: Well, I don't know that he's Wilt Chamberlain, but you
know, I will say this.


WILLIAMS: That guy was a Tea Party guy. And I listen to this table,
and you guys are not talking about him as someone who was a Tea Party
advocate and leader. That's how he came onto the national scene.

WATTERS: You're right. I forgot about that.

WILLIAMS: And not only that. I'm going to say this weekend the
papers had a lot about him shifting positions. That's your point. That
was a good point, because I think people are like, "Well, is he for real or

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: And the other thing I would say is, hey, you know, the far
right, the hawks in the Republican Party can't stand him, because he's
noninterventionist. He's the one guy that would say we don't have any
business over in the Middle East. Why are we fighting all these wars? Why
do we got troops over there?

That appeals -- and this comes back to a larger point -- to young

GUILFOYLE: He has a tremendous -- yes.

WILLIAMS: And a lot of young people see Rand Paul as Ron Paul, his
dad's successor, and those people love Ron Paul. They give him a lot of
money, and they're giving him a lot of money. Watch this. Rand Paul is
going to do very well fundraising.

GUTFELD: But you know, to my point about the difference between a
candidate who runs and somebody who's doing their job. It's why I was
always impressed with Scott Walker. What he was doing was not running; he
was governing. I mean, the stuff he was doing with unions could have cost
him his job. But he did it anyway. That to me is more impressive than
anything that anybody says when they're on the campaign stump.

GUILFOYLE: I think you can't count him out, because he has a lot of
good ideas that people seem to respond to. I like the outreach. I like
getting younger people involved; I like getting minority communities
involved. The Republican Party needs more of that.

PERINO: I'll say one other positive thing. In 2014, he really
travelled the country to help elect other Republicans. And so I think, to
the extent that he might have some problems with -- like on the right --
far right wing, he actually went and campaigned for a lot of those people.


PERINO: Mitch McConnell being one of them.

GUILFOYLE: With good outcomes.

WILLIAMS: And also you know what? If you're -- if you're looking up
at him, he looks really tall.

GUILFOYLE: I just want someone that can lead.

All right. Ahead, a high school student with a very tough decision to
make. He's has been accepted to all eight Ivy League schools. The young
immigrant's story of hard work and the American dream, coming up next.


WILLIAMS: His parents moved to America from Nigeria so their kids
could get a better education. And high school senior Harold Ekeh didn't
let them down. The student from Long Island, New York, has just gotten
into -- get this -- all eight Ivy League universities, along with five
other colleges. And now he's got a hard choice to make. So how did he do


HAROLD EKEH, HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR: I, like, worked pretty hard. I
definitely tried to apply myself and try to think of every opportunity that
was afforded to me in my high school.

I was really stunned when I got the acceptances. I think, like, I'm
very humbled by the entire situation, because, like, I get to represent my
school and community in such a positive light.

Seeing my parents lead by example and being very tenacious, and you
know, like, no matter how many times I get knocked down, they would always,
like, you know, keep going forward and persevering, despite the potential
to, like, succumb to their circumstances. And that's something that I
really appreciated with my parents.


WILLIAMS: Harold says he hopes to become a neurosurgeon, and right
now he's leaning towards Yale University.

So Jesse...


WILLIAMS: ... for me this is -- I want to cry.

WATTERS: It's a great story.

WILLIAMS: It's unbelievable. I mean, I just think this is what
America is about.

The other day we had a little thing about Arnold Schwarzenegger, an
immigrant, giving thanks for Americans for the opportunities. A little
different than what, you know, this guy has got. But I mean, this is --
this is why America is the place in the entire globe for everybody. It's
why people want to come to America. It's because you love your kids, and
you want the opportunity.

WATTERS: It's the American dream. You play by the rules. He didn't
break any laws. His parents came here legally. And now look at him. He's
going to whatever school he wants. So it's funny: he applied to all eight
Ivy League schools, and he also got into Stony Brook. He's so smart, he
even had a safety school, which is great.

I did see a red flag on his resume, Juan.

WILLIAMS: What was it?

WATTERS: He volunteered for a social justice program after school.

WILLIAMS: You know, you can't...

WATTERS: So I'm a little worried about him.

WILLIAMS: You can't help yourself.

WATTERS: I'm just kidding, Juan.

WILLIAMS: You can't help yourself.

WATTERS: The kid obviously worked hard, and it's great. And you know
what? I have a lot in common with this guy.


WATTERS: Because I work hard, too.

GUILFOYLE: You got into all eight?

WATTERS: When I first came to FOX, I was working weekends, freelance,
no health insurance. And now look at me. I'm filling in for Eric Bolling
on ""The Five.""

WILLIAMS: Oh, man.

PERINO: You're really coming up.

GUILFOYLE: You're our little success story.

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes, yes. So Dana, I want to ask you, if -- this kid,
I think, from the conservative perspective, would be a role model for
American kids but also for black American kids.

PERINO: Absolutely. And what I was going to think about was I would
like to do an interview of his parents...


PERINO: ... and to find out what is their -- how did they keep him
focused? What was their secret? Because I think that he obviously is a
driven individual, so some kids are just like that. But what was it that
the parents did that we could all learn from and pass on to other people?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, he praised his parents. By the way, we
didn't show it, but he said the parents were working very much hard-nosed
jobs, jobs at Target. They would get knocked down; they'd get back up. So
in fact, I think the parents were models for him to say, "You know what?
Go get it, kid. Don't make excuses. Don't buy that you can't do it. Go
do it" -- Greg

GUTFELD: Yes. My gut tells me that immigrants are the last people to
play the victim card, because they're too busy working. Why do immigrants
do better than people who are born here? Because they still believe in
community; they still help each other out: families, relatives, friends.
They let you sleep on the couch; they'll lend you money. They'll help you
find work. They're closely knit.

We are losing that in the American -- the people who are born here
don't have that community.

And also the act of immigration self-selects for a type of person who

WILLIAMS: Well, that's true.

GUTFELD: Because it's a person who leaves for a better life;
generally is a risk taker, works harder, values opportunities. Again,
there are people born here who enjoy the accoutrements of a western life,
who take it for granted and don't care.

WILLIAMS: You know what? Go ahead. Go ahead, Kim.

GUILFOYLE: We're really out of time. But so because the idea what so
many young people feel, you know, entitled to the education, entitled to
the good jobs, the outcome, to the internship, et cetera. And we've got to
turn that thinking around, whereas it's a privilege. It's a habit to live
in this country and have these tremendous opportunities versus just a

I love this story. It's everything that's great about this country,
and I hope people learn from it.

WILLIAMS: I hope that your son gets into all eight. That's the
standard, you know. That's what I'm looking for.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. I don't know. Let's see.

WILLIAMS: All right. So more good news. More good news on "The
Five." It's baseball's opening day, and there are some major changes in
store this season for the Major League. You're going to learn about it
when ""The Five"" comes back.


WATTERS: It's baseball's opening day, and in case some of you have
grown weary of the game's slow pace, the MLB has got a plan to win you back
by speeding things up this season.

New pace to play rules are now in effect that will mean shorter times
between innings and pitches. The average game last year was three hours
and two minutes.

Now Kimberly, I've been to a baseball game with you. We weren't
really at a game. We were in one of the suites.

GUILFOYLE: We were in, like, just -- yes.

WATTERS: I don't want to give anybody the wrong idea. But I mean,
you ate a hot dog. You yelled a few things at A-Rod. I don't think you
watched any of the game at all.

GUILFOYLE: Not true.

WATTERS: Are these things going to help you watch?

GUILFOYLE: I was mostly eating, because they do have fantastic food.
There was the chicken wings, too, and the hot dogs and hamburgers. I mean,
my God, it was delicious.

WATTERS: You did eat.

GUILFOYLE: I took some pictures. I actually love baseball. I grew
up loving baseball, hanging out at Candlestick Park when it used to be
called that, Greg. You know it. And I used to go to the double-headers,
and I would go to batting practice before the double headers. So what do
you want to say about that?

WATTERS: What were you doing there? What were you doing at the
batting practice?

GUILFOYLE: I love baseball. I love sports. And I grew up playing,
you know, fast-pitch softball, too. So this was my deal.

WATTERS: All right. Juan, I mean, you have a young son. Is he going
to sit for three hours?

WILLIAMS: He likes -- the youngest one loves it. The older one
doesn't like it. And what I noticed is that, according to the statistics
now, the average fan is in his high 50s or low 60s. That's not good for

So they're putting a clock up in the outfield. It's like a 30-second
-- 24-second clock in basketball. But I've got to think, you know, I just
like baseball. I played baseball. I like it. I just -- I hope they don't
ruin the game.

WATTERS: Now, for -- I don't know if you know what baseball is, Dana.
They have a bat, and you swing and you hit the ball; and it goes into the
field. And there's home runs.

PERINO: Really?

WATTERS: Have you ever seen this sport? They call it a sport.

PERINO: I have. Well, I know that you would be questioning that. It
was actually Hostess today who ran this funny ad -- I think we have a
picture of it -- in "USA Today." It was about, you know, calling it a
touchdown, a homerun. And everybody thought that they made a mistake, but
they were just making a joke, like I make a joke.

Yes, I know what baseball is. I don't like to go to the games,
because I'm afraid I'm going to get hit in the head with a ball.

WATTERS: You've got to bring your glove, then.

GUTFELD: You mean on a grounder?


WATTERS: Gutfeld, do you have any changes that you'd like to see
happen in Major League Baseball?

GUTFELD: As you know, I played briefly for the Pittsburgh Pirates
before my injury.

PERINO: The Petite.


PERINO: The Petite Pittsburgh Pirates?

GUTFELD: Never mind. All right. It's not boring enough to me. It
should be -- I think it should be like a golf tournament, where instead,
you have 72 holes, you have 72 innings in a row.

WATTERS: You want to slow the game down?

GUTFELD: I want to slow the game down. Because 95 percent of the
time when you're watching a baseball game, it's enforced contemplation.
You're not really watching the game. You're thinking about the meaning of
life. You're thinking about what are you going to do at work. How is your
marriage? Is there life after death? That's what -- all baseball is, is
an excuse to be off in your own head and pretend to be interested in
something. If anything, we need more baseball.

PERINO: I actually got your joke. I just got it later, but it was
really funny.

GUILFOYLE: I don't think it's bad to speed it up.

WATTERS: Speed it up a little bit?


WILLIAMS: I must tell you...

PERINO: How about we speed up this segment?

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes. I must tell you, though, when I go to games...


WILLIAMS: ... I think there are young people out in the outfield, and
I they're there to drink.

WATTERS: They are.

GUILFOYLE: No, really, Juan? Where did you get that idea?

GUTFELD: Young folk? Young folk drinking in the bleachers?

WILLIAMS: I'm telling you.

GUTFELD: Not having it.

WATTERS: All right. "One More Thing" is up next.


GUTFELD: Time for "One More Thing." Let's go to Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: OK. All right. So FOX -- FOX News 9 Minneapolis
meteorologist Steve Frasier had a bit of a fashion emergency last week when
he forgot to remove the hanger from the jacket.


GUILFOYLE: Take a look.


STEVE FRASIER, METEOROLOGIST, FOX NEWS 9: The chill is letting up,
but the chill is not completely gone.

And the chill -- I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the chill has got a kink in your neck. Huh?

just a tight button, but never mind.

Can we just go to the weather?


GUILFOYLE: It's pretty funny. But at least he made fun of himself.
Have you ever done that.

GUTFELD: That was totally fake.

WATTERS: That looked like a set up.

GUTFELD: That was a set up.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, really?


GUILFOYLE: You think so?

GUTFELD: Kimberly, you fell for it.

GUILFOYLE: All right.

GUTFELD: All right, Dana.

PERINO: OK, I just wanted to take a moment to think about some of the
victims of terrorism. The Tsarnaev trial is happening in Boston. Closing
arguments happening today. And I just feel like this case hasn't gotten
enough sort of front-page attention. And it should have.

There's also the Kenya attack, where 150 people were killed by gunmen
and again, that was radical Islam. And then you had the ISIS women
wannabes in New York yesterday.

And I was interested to find out is the thread that ties all of these
together is the radicalization of these young people. For example, in
Kenya, one of the gunmen was the son of a high -- prominent government
person in Kenya. So I think that if we can try to crack that code on
radicalization, we might get a better answer. And we have to keep these
victims in mind.

GUTFELD: Mm-hmm. And fry Tsarnaev.

PERINO: Absolutely. Death penalty.

GUTFELD: Fry him. If that guy doesn't get the death penalty, I'm
moving to Texas.

All right. It's time for...


GUTFELD: Greg's Gutfact, with 100 percent more fact.


GUTFELD: All right. Here's a question. I'll ask you Kimberly: How
many Google searches are there every day?


GUTFELD: Come on.

GUILFOYLE: I don't know.

PERINO: In the world?

GUTFELD: Yes. No, in America. How much?

GUILFOYLE: In America or the whole world?

GUTFELD: America.

GUILFOYLE: I don't know. Who knows?

GUTFELD: That's why you answer it. It's a question.

PERINO: Five million.

GUILFOYLE: Between 10 and 100.

GUTFELD: You saw it. It's five -- you know what? This is supposed
to be a learning experience for people.

GUILFOYLE: She read it.

GUTFELD: You cheated, and you can fry (ph).

GUILFOYLE: I said between ten and 100. I said 10 first, then 100.


GUTFELD: Well, anyway.

PERINO: I was trying to signal her, but she wasn't picking up my

GUTFELD: All right. I've got to go to Juan. I'm so angry.

WILLIAMS: Oh, I hope your feelings aren't hurt.

GUILFOYLE: Nice, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Anyway, this weekend, as you well know by now, Wisconsin
beat Kentucky. But afterwards, when one of the players was asked about
guarding their big center, Frank Kaminsky of Wisconsin, another player,
Andrew Harrison, said blank that "N" word.

Now, you know, from me that I am upset about the casual use of the "N"
word in America. And this is exactly how crazy it is, that you have a
black player cursing out a white player and calling him the "N" word.
That's how -- they don't even understand the word. And somehow they want
to defend it, and people like the guy on "Empire," you know, Terrence
Howard, says, "Oh, it's OK to use it." It's just wrong. Stop it.

GUTFELD: So the "N" word was "nuisance."

WILLIAMS: Thank you.


WATTERS: If there is still any doubt that we should have elected Mitt
Romney as president, listen to this. So everybody fills out their brackets
round, you know, Final Four time. Mitt Romney, near perfection.

PERINO: Of course.

WATTERS: For the four Final Four teams, picked the matchup in the
title game correctly; 99th percentile. President Obama, 40th percentile.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my gosh.

WATTERS: There you go.

GUILFOYLE: There's no mistaking you. Let me tell you.

PERINO: Everything proves your point.

GUTFELD: We'll look for a victory wherever we can. We're so -- we're
so sad.

WATTERS: Give me something I can sink my teeth into.

GUTFELD: All right. "Special Report" up next.

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