THE FIVE

Dangers of gun-free zones

Research shows felons avoid armed targets

 

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," February 24, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Everybody was talking about. Hello, everyone. I'm Greg Gutfeld along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Eric Bolling and she uses toothpicks as ski poles, it's Dana Perino. This is "The Five. "

So Somali terrorists have threatened America's biggest mall. A threat that reveals an obvious truth: that the phrase "gun-free zone" is liberal for "sitting duck."

Gun-free is music to the ears of fiends who target the unarmed on purpose.

Fact: The Soldier Readiness Processing Center at Fort Hood was gun-free at the time of that attack. If you think that's a coincidence then 9/11 happened because of fog. When Hassan was shot, the attack ended. Fact: A massacre's duration is dictated by the time other bullets arrive. For, as great as the police are, in every attack they show up afterwards. Then, whether it's Paris or Australia, they factor casualties before going in. You want to be part of that math?

Research shows felons avoid armed targets. Hell, even Media Matters wouldn't put a gun-free sticker on their office window. And for every TV hack dismissing these notions: that's done from a secured perch. They should thank the Second Amendment for protecting the First. Their complacency is a byproduct of a well-armed society. The civility that makes you think "massacres can't happen here," depends on the armed American who makes those threats costly. Gun-free zones remove that.

So as we witness a new emerging savagery, why not cherish our well-armed independence? Why not have our enemies think they're not the only crazies who cling to religion and guns?

If you can't beat them, shoot them.

So welcome back, Perino.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Thank you.

GUTFELD: You were away for a couple days. You grew up on a ranch. Ranches have guns. Guns are nothing. You shot anything that moves that's what I heard.

PERINO: For fun.

GUTFELD: Alright. I heard for fun, yeah. Alright, there is a police department in the mall, which is good. But there are also guns at -- you know, at Fort Hood and there are police officers that places and they show up later. How do you feel about the idea of concealed the permits being in public places?

PERINO: I think that -- I'm for the police being armed.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: At the mall, at the very least.

GUTFELD: Right.

PERINO: On conceal carry, I -- I can see being for it. I don't personally have one, obviously, because I live in New York City, but I don't know. That's a personal thing for me. I don't have one, I don't even know if I would have one anywhere else. But now I just realize I just labeled myself as a gun-free zone and I'm referring back to monologue (ph) --

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Take it back.

PERINO: And I think I need to -- like have a sticker that says I have a gun.

GUTFELD: You carry a squirt gun filled with very hot tea. Anybody comes out.

PERINO: Right in the eyes.

GUTFELD: You just squirt it right in the eyes. Alright Juan, I know -- I know what you're already gonna say. Do Americans need to arm themselves in the face of new terror or just NRA fueled paranoia?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: NRA fueled in your hot, hot tea in your eye, paranoia.

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: You know, I mean, the reality is -- look, there have always been bad guys out there. I think the mall had to go back though and say that there was misinterpretation of the concealed carry law in Minnesota, because they were telling people at the door, don't bring your guns and apparently, people are allowed to do that. But my point to you is -- you know what? You and I are not coming up against ISIS over here on 6th Avenue.

GUTFELD: Right.

WILLIAMS: What we come up --

GUILFOYLE: You never know.

WILLIAMS: Again most often. I think it's now half of most of the killings in this country are done by family. And another third are people involved with drug deals and robberies. So, I mean, you know like this guy --

GUTFELD: Or gangs.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, there was story in the paper today about a guy who was a policeman out in White Plains, he shot both daughters, then killed himself. So it's like, that's what goes on with guns. That's why I think it's NRA priority.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Can I jump in --

GUTFELD: Well first, I want to point out that you are suffering from again ocean privilege, because you live over here and not over there, it's not a problem.

BOLLING: You started the comment along with the reality is. And you spewed nothing but -- in fact there is no reality in anything you said. Here's that the real reality.

GUILFOYLE: That's kind of mean that --

BOLLING: Here are the --

WILLIAMS: That's alright, it's alright.

BOLLING: Pew research -- OK with the research, Pew?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, they great. (ph)

BOLLING: Over the last 20 years, the gun ownership has -- peaked right now at its highest level in 22 years at 47 percent of households have a gun. At the same -- over that same period of time, Pew and the bureau of -- Federal Bureau of Statistics says, violent crimes including murder have plummeted 49 percent. Violent crimes not -- non-murder but with guns, have plummeted 75 percent. So, as we arm ourselves in America, our violent crime rate is plummeting, therefore the reality is, more guns means a safer America.

WILLIAMS: Boy, that's some flawed logic.

BOLLING: Why? Don't you get?

WILLIAMS: You mean, you think that -- better policing --

BOLLING: More guns --

WILLIAMS: A different society.

BOLLING: Few violent crimes.

WILLIAMS: I mean -- you mean, you can't -- don't think anything but guns is the reason for that?

GUTFELD: No but there -- this is what's called Juan, a hate fact. It's a fact that you hate.

WILLIAMS: What?

GUTFELD: But there's a lot of research John Lott has done a lot of research looking at specific gun control laws and they find that permits are the only way that -- or correlated to reduced crime. I want to ask Kimberly though, speaking of John Lott --

GUILFOYLE: I like that because you regulated, you have it identified, you know who has what gun, where and you have certain standards and practices.

GUTFELD: Yeah, and also -- and also John Lott has his great article coming out, I think tonight in Chicago Sun-Times. They talks about how people like Elliott Rodger, who was -- a spree killer. Which is essentially almost new different than a terrorist attack. And that he -- he actively looked at Santa Barbara for a place where there were any guns and lamented in his manifesto, that he chose his targets based on people not being armed, he worried about being shot. So that's what terrorists do.

GUILFOYLE: Well of course. So that's why they go to places that they think where good soft targets, it's attractive to them. Gun-free zones, whether it's movie theaters or whether at schools or someplace whether it's -- you know, elementary schools or even a college like Virginia Tech. These are the cases that jump out and that's from the headlines. I mean, look, this is a right that Americans have, and it's like an amendment. People gonna have to deal with it, but responsibly. I think if we just turn the blind eye to (inaudible), no, how about responsible gun ownership. The guns aren't the ones taking the lives, the people that are deciding to pull the trigger. So make sure you know who has the guns, whether not they should have them, do proper background, check, like we have in place and let's take care of it that way. But don't get hysterical and start blaming guns, because then you show and it implies (ph) your ignorance. Who has the gun? Who makes the choice? Yeah, gang members, terrorists, we don't want them to have guns, but now you're telling me the problem is the law abiding citizenship shouldn't have it? That's the disconnect.

GUTFELD: Let's go to -- this -- this is some sound of tape of Minnesota state wrap (ph) Tony Cornish on gun-free zone at the Mall of America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY CORNISH, MINNESOTA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: The situation at Mall of America is completely ridiculous. It's just the opposite of what they should be doing. If we're threatened with an attack of any type, the last thing you ever want to do is disarm citizens. Basically, they're making a killing zone on. If I were a terrorist, the first place that I would look to go to inflict harm or mass casualties would be a place where people were unarmed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Again, I don't believe that the government is out to take away guns. I think the point here is that, advertising, a gun-free zone is possibly the most idiotic thing you could ever do. Even if it was gun-free -- lie?

PERINO: Right. Well, that's what -- that's what the mistake I make on my first dancer about you monologue and say that I don't have --

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: A weapon.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: I -- I think we -- we should want -- people who -- criminals or terrorists. Or -- I understand the point about the family, Juan. I think that is -- and I do think that is a concern of a separate issue but --

GUTFELD: It's a concern of mental illness.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

PERINO: A big area where there are a lot of -- there is a lot of activity, a lot of innocent people concentrated in one area -- you know, exercising their right of capitalism at the mall -- that's why these type of targets should be protected. Of course we should advertise that they're protected.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: I would rather say that, that not and why not.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

PERINO: Right. You see, let's lie.

GUTFELD: Even when if the mall is saying something else, it endangers the consumers there, because they saying these people are unarmed.

BOLLING: You know, in inevitably the one reason why there will not be a jihad, there won't be a holy war on American soil against Americans is because of 300 million firearms in America.

WILLIAMS: Oh my God. The one are you -- is that what -- that attack the twin towers?

BOLLING: No, no, I didn't say there won't be attacks, Juan. I said that the jihad will never happen on our turf, because no terrorist organization is stupid enough to try and take on America when we have the second amendment.

WILLIAMS: You know this is --this is so what --

BOLLING: We protect our right to defend ourselves.

WILLIAMS: You know what you sound like? You sound like those --

GUTFELD: That makes -- that makes sense, Juan. How could you deny that?

WILLIAMS: No, because it doesn't makes sense. It makes no sense. You know, ISIS come up again -- you know, if we --

GUILFOYLE: He's saying line an armed jihad. Obviously, people are coming.

WILLIAMS: No, but I'm saying - you know, you think back to other periods of unrest in the American history. You know, the police and the military, they have the most weapons. They are the ones that have the guns.

BOLLING: And that's the good thing --

WILLIAMS: OK. But --

BOLLING: Actually, they don't. Americans have the most weapons, right?

WILLIAMS: No, no, I'm talking --

BOLLING: By far.

WILIAMS: If you want to know who is armed, sometimes go visit your U.S. military. I tell you that.

BOLLING: And I'm -- you know, I think -- what's the point?

GUILFOYLE: Thank goodness, Bolling.

BOLLING: Yeah. What's the point?

WILLIAMS: I'm all for it. I think that the police and the military should have guns.

BOLLING: So why? I'm not saying take the guns out --

WILLIAMS: But you're saying, you're saying, oh no, every citizen.

BOLLING: Say in addition to police and military.

WILLIAMS: It's better if all of us on The Five had a gun, including Dana.

BOLLING: I do.

GUILFOYLE: Not.

BOLLING: I do.

GUILFOYLE: Not.

GUTFELD: I applaud that.

GUILFOYLE: Not.

WILLIAMS: No, no, no. You know why, because then I get shot first.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: No, I just don't think that makes sense.

GUILFOYLE: Better than Bob.

WILLIAMS: That everybody in the mall has a gun. Let the police protect us.

GUTFELD: No, I think that -- you know what? This is not an either/or like everybody is armed and everybody is not. The concealed permit, it, it creates a level of uncertainty.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: On the people that are choosing an attack. It's basically saying there's an extra variable that is unknown.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: For example, uniformed police officer -- if you're planning attack, you see the uniform, you wait until the uniform leaves. But you chose another target. But I don't know it if Juan Williams is armed, or Eric Bolling is armed--

GUILFOYLE: Can I tell you something?

GUTFELD: Sure.

GUILFOYLE: So about the lying part, yeah, got to lie.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: On my old house, massive sign, beware of dog like this -- in jaw.

PERINO: Yeah. Always beware of dogs.

GUILFOYLE: And my dog is like this --

BOLLING: I want to put my --

GUILFOYLE: It used to be stuff -- a stuff animal, but that's what people do, they say armed by ADT security level -- all of that.

BOLLING: I have a gun permit.

GUILFOYLE: Right?

BOLLING: Right on my window. Right there, there it is. You want? -- Right.

WILLIAMS: But let me just ask you, are you guys really saying that at Sandy Hook, all the kids should have guns?

GUTFELD: No.

PERINO: No.

GUTFELD: We're not. You are saying that.

WILIAMS: What I'm saying, it's so ridiculous.

GUILFOYLE: Afraid not.

WILLIAMS: Everybody should have a gun. You go in the military.

GUILFOYLE: But you've been drinking from the drinking cup because -- no.

WILLIAMS: Fort Hood. Oh my God, Fort Hood. Not only --

GUTFELD: I don't recall saying that, Juan.

GUILFOYLE: Nobody said that.

GUTFELD: That's an old left wing thing we --

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah?

GUTFELD: Words in people's mouths.

WILLIAMS: I don't have to put words in your mouth. Your words -- your word are so -- I think I point, so I -- you make us a cogent argument for, guns everywhere. Now I say, hey Greg, you made an argument for everybody everyday -- oh no, I didn't say that.

GUTFELD: No, I didn't say -- oh, let's give guns to children.

WILLIAMS: You say give everybody a gun.

GUTFELD: No, I'm not. Did I say that?

WILLIAMS: Who wants --

BOLLING: No, no.

WILIAMS: Who wants --

BOLLING: No, no.

WILLIAMS: Who wants to attack at school?

BOLLING: He said don't --

WILLIAMS: And he said -- you said if they have guns.

GUILFOYLE: What?

GUTFELD: Alright.

WILLIAMS: That would be less likely a target.

GUTFELD: You got me. You got me, Juan. I said let's.

WILLIAMS: Oh, my God.

GUTFELD: Babies should have guns.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I will.

GUTFELD: I said it here, America. We should arm the -- it's an infantry.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

GUTFELD: Babies with guns.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GUILFOYLE: Kindergarten hogs (ph). Kindergarten hogs (ph)

WILLIAMS: In fact, the bad guys started this the other day.

GUTFELD: Got them in the fetus.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

GUTFELD: When they're in the baby -- when they're in the womb.

WILLIAMS: No.

GUTFELD: Get tiny little guns.

WILLIAMS: What about Dana? (ph)

GUILFOYLE: Their holsters.

WILLIAMS: A unicorn army.

GUTFELD: There you go.

WILLIAMS: There we go.

GUTFELD: Well, that's another story. Coming up, there's a new fear for Christians in the Middle East after nearly 100 were abducted by the Islamic state in Syria, more on that when we returned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: Christianity continues to be under constant attack from Islamic extremists in the Middle East. ISIS has reportedly abducted 90 Christians in North Eastern Syria, according to a human rights organization in the region, but they are alone. Matt VanDyke runs a security company providing three military training to local Iraqi forces to help fight ISIS. He warns that Christians in Iraq could face extinction at the hands of Islamic terror.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW VANDYKE, SONS OF LIBERTY INTERNATIONAL: A lot have been driven from their homes, tens of thousands, there's refugees, refugee camps, a lot of been displaced and left the country. The future Christianity in Iraq is really uncertain. They face possible extinction from Iraq, really. If they can't demonstrate that they can provide their own security, their people continue to leave and Iraq's rich Christian heritage might be lost forever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: I think this is a huge concern. It should be internationally. Is this not just the United States of America, problem. This is a problem that -- the pope is aware of, we need to do something about it that quite clear. I'll ask you, Juan, your thoughts on this with -- could these Christians lives are really in peril?

WILLIAMS: There's no question about it and it's an international outrage, and you would hope that people would pay attention to the fact that Christians are being targeted, because they are Christians. This is - to me, you know -- you know, the danger is you get into a holy war religious worst scenario. Now he's going over, VanDyke is going over and he's finding some kind of like Christian army to fight against the Muslim. You know I worry about that because I think what you want to do is you have an international coalition, stay away from religious wars. I think the reason - you know the larger conversation with President Obama why he won't call it Islamic has to do with not wanting to suggest to all the worlds Muslims that we're at war with them. But --

GUILFOYLE: But they got the job that they have.

WILLIAMS: This is the moment where you do have to be -- just straight. I mean, the pope -- when the cop (ph) that Christians were slaughtered last week.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, no.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean it just, you don't understand -- you don't have to be Christian, I think everybody here is -- but, I don't -- you know, that's to me, punishing someone for their religious matter of conscience beliefs, nothing lower.

BOLLING: And what's the --

GUILFOYLE: And there if you watched that video.

BOLLING: And what's -- that I did. The 21 Egyptians that were -- it's Christian-Egyptian that were -- that were beheaded, it's horrible. But, what's the difference between what's going on now in Nazi Germany? Nothing, it's literally a cleansing --

WILLIAMS: Magnitude.

BOLLING: -- but it didn't always start.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

BOLLING: With --

GUILFOYLE: How far are we supposed to let it go?

WILLIAMS: No, no, I just want to be clear. This is not the holocaust.

BOLLING: Not yet, but -- does it become? Does it get bigger? And I'm just trying to figure it out has it spreads, does it become more religious based? I hope not. I agree with you, I hope not. I hope we realize that these are evil people doing bad things, not just because in the name of -- you won't convert to Islam, but just -- there (inaudible), they're terrorists, so we need to eradicate them. And again, step up the air campaign. Just do it. You know where they are. Just start killing bad guys. It's time.

GUILFOYLE: Will this be enough to get their attention of the world to unite people to say, enough is enough?

GUTFELD: I don't know. I don't -- I -- I honestly, in pretty much down on the world. Where there is anarchy, there is suffering. And there's -- I don't see a lot of people thinking, hey, let's go find these people and stop them. I don't think you can just bomb them, you have to find them first, or else you just end up with a lot of rabble. You know we laud the aid worker, the person that goes to Syria or goes to Iraq or Egypt to help. We don't laud the mercenary.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

GUTFELD: And I -- and I know that sounds crazy, but the fact is, if America is no longer willing to get down there and kill these people, what's left are the freelancers, I mean, the foreign legion. People who are technically aid -- aid workers, but their aid is a machine gun and what they do is eradicate evil. You know on Bill Maher's real time, Bill and I the moron guy was on there. And we're talking about the Jews leaving to go to Israel and he said something that like, something along the line that the Jews just should be nicer -- you know, to their neighbor. And as if -- you know Jews are shooting up Muslim restaurants. Which is -- and that's the kind of mentality that is -- is what we're living with. It's -- what I would call ocean privilege. In America, we just -- it's just so far away. Who care?

GUILFOYLE: Well, that wasn't super uplifting, but, OK. Do you help because (inaudible)

PERINO: Let me talk about this guy Matt VanDyke, because of this to follow what Greg was saying. So, this is somebody who -- just looking at his demeanor on television. He is passionate, he has a lot of heart, and he is calm and he is being thoughtful and he is trying to get the attention of the world because, he was saying, OK, as fine the pope says something and we say we're concerned, but who is doing something. That is what people are wanted, like whose doing something. I worry his safety and the people that are working with him, because the potential for being kidnapped is -- is real. But he at least is doing something, and I think that having passion and heart and being willing to go over and to help innocent people is something important. On the issue of the air campaign, I would be for more air power if we were sure that we weren't target innocent people. ISIS is the kind of terrorist that hides amongst the innocent people so that -- I think what we need -- I'm not at the Pentagon, but I think what we're going to end up at a place where we have more special forces on the ground to be able to help target that air power appropriately.

WILLIAMS: That's the idea.

PERINO: That is what is needed. We're of a -- there's -- President Obama feels like the administration thinks that we either to what we're doing now which is like, not enough or we send in 150,000 ground troops.

WILLIAMS: No, I think that's --

PERINO: As if there's nothing in between. --

WILLIAMS: I think that's the right -- that's the right move. But let me just make one last quick point --

GUILFOYLE: I like what he is doing, I met him. He was on Fox and Friends. It's a very interesting story, the kidnapped to himself, (ph) he has put himself in harm's way, he's really trying to make a difference, not just -- you know, sit and talk about it --

WILLIAMS: Well now, I mean, you got have to honor that, but I'm saying the way he's doing, he puts himself at risk and he actually could in-flame the situation if you get kidnap as Dana point out. My final point on this would be, don't forget, most of these horrific terrorist characters are killing Muslims.

PERINO: Yes.

WILIAMS: And I don't understand why the Muslim world doesn't stand up and say, we got to go do something. Yes, they're killing Christians and it personally hurts me.

GUTFELD: And used (ph)

WILLIAMS: But most of the -- but, yeah.

GUTFELD: And Christians choose Muslims.

WILLIAMS: But there most of the time, they're killing Muslims.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: Well -- yeah. But the -- OK, but they are helping out, but let's -- let's pick up the pace. Is that a nice way to say it? Coming up, this afternoon President Obama made good on his promise to veto the keystone legislation Keystone legislation. So who really is the party of no? The political fallout, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: This morning the Senate put the Keystone pipeline legislation on President Obama's desk and just hours later, he vetoed it stating, because this act of Congress conflict with established executive branch procedures and cuts short thorough consideration of issues that could bear on, blah, blah, blah, I mean, OK, honesty, he just said that he vetoed it, really boring statement by him. Senator Mitch McConnell said the vote to override the president's veto will come before March 3rd and it looks like Eric, they are just a few votes shy of that. They think they have 63 of 67 votes, they can maybe get there. I mean, the American people have said they would like to have this pipeline for the future of the country.

BOLLING: The American people are in favor of it. There's bipartisan support on both chambers of Congress. It will create thousands of jobs. It will -- it will drive -- first of all, let's, let's in terms of D.C., it will create hundreds of billions of dollars of tax revenue over the next 10 or 20 years. All that oil is taxed as it's sold in economic activity surrounds it, but it will keep oil prices low. What in God's name is wrong with just saying, OK, we'll do it. There's no down side. The environmental concerns have been rebuffed by its own state department. There's nothing other than President Obama had tipping the environmental lobby including Tom Steyer and the other environmentalist that don't want to have it for some stupid reason. It's fairly shouldn't be environmental.

PERINO: What reason -- what do you think the reason is?

GUTFELD: Politics. It's religion without morality. That's what it is. There is no logic in this manipulation whatsoever. It's like watching two refrigerators play chess. And the point -- one question I would ask President Obama, what is safer than a pipeline, in delivering anything? Do you want sewage from your White House toilet for be transferred via model train to the rose garden. Will that make you feel better? You're OK with indoor plumbing. You should be OK with an oil pipeline. Transporting oil by train is not as safe, we just saw something recent happened with an explosion and that I guess has something to do with Obama's donors as well. But it's just pure politics.

PERINO: If you were -- Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

PERINO: If you were on the Senate side, and you had to -- what would you do to try to convince those four people, the four senators that are holdouts to vote with the country and overwrite the president's veto?

GUILFOYLE: I would dance for them. I mean, they are asking what I would do.

PERINO: And that's what you were looking for?

GUILFOYLE: You ask what I would so, yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: My point is.

GUTFELD: A little bar.

GUILFOYLE: I'm so sorry but, I mean, I think it would work. Here's the deal. I think you have to get individual with those people. If it was the four of you, I know exactly what I would do for to offer --

GUTFELD: For a tell (ph)

GUILFOYLE: For each one of you, right? Like you would know what to do with me.

PERINO: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: It was very easy. It would be the chocolate.

PERINO: I know exactly.

GUILFOYLE: With the salt on top.

PERINO: On top.

GUILFOYLE: With little caramels, that done deal. But honestly, you have to give a personalized approach. There isn't a formulate (ph) response for it. It's not gonna be just one way to do it. I mean, you have to embolden them to do what's right, try and find some consistency to support, to show them that this is the right thing to do, to vote your conscience, instead of being some kind of political puppet for the president.

PERINO: Well, to that point one.

GUILFOYLE: And he has not make sense.

PERINO: Politically, if you're just one of those four, and you could overwrite the president's speech though. You could get what your constituents have said what they wanted, this why wouldn't you do it, because politically, doesn't that give you some more credibility at back home and -- amongst your colleagues?

WILLIAMS: No. I think if there's --

PERINO: Be fair enough, Juan.

WILIAMS: For Senate Democrats --

PERINO: I walked you right down that road.

WILLIAMS: No, I appreciate.

GUILFOYLE: (inaudible) and you blew it.

WILLIAMS: But I'm just saying, you got, you look at the Democrats right now, you told it -- it takes about -- what 13 Democrats to go to the other side.

PERINO: Probably, they are all -- they're short four, right now.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, but -- well, that's what your thought is. We don't know for sure.

PERINO: As to the Senate --

WILLIAMS: Right.

PERINO: The same.

WILLIAMS: What I'm saying, you got a situation where Democrats are trying to hold together as a minority block and the Senate, so it requires you for breaking away and that's very difficult to say to your teammate, I'm leaving --

PERINO: It's a good point.

WILLIAMS: But I will say this: when I heard the argument, "Oh, more jobs," I think what a weak argument. This is not...

BOLLING: As opposed to...

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God. Say that to the person who doesn't have one, Juan.

WILLIAMS: What I'm saying is, if more -- if jobs are being produced by our economy over the last few months than ever, it's not because of that.

BOLLING: Those jobs will not be -- they're created. They're high-paying jobs, so why wouldn't you do it?

WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. For two years you're going to put the environment at risk? You're going to put all -- all...

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: The environment isn't at risk.

GUTFELD: There's no risk.

BOLLING: Look, so instead of creating, I don't know what you want to say, 5,000, 15,000 jobs...

WILLIAMS: No.

BOLLING: ... whatever it is, 500 jobs...

WILLIAMS: OK.

BOLLING: ... if you don't do it, you don't get those jobs. You don't get the tax revenue for doing -- you know, you bring Canadian oil. Once it's transferred from Canadian to American soil there's a tax on it. It gets -- it goes into the coffers.

And the best part of this, the best part of this, Canadians don't want to kill us. The Arab countries that we're buying oil from want to kill us.

GUTFELD: What about Celine Dion?

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: Can I do the second topic? Because for the fourth time, as Juan would say, the Senate Democrats, who want to stick together, they've rejected legislation that would have funded the Department of Homeland Security ahead of a potential partial shut-down on Friday. The bill would have funded the DHS through September, in exchange for rolling back President Obama's executive action on immigration.

But this morning Senator Mitch McConnell proposed a separate bill to stop the president's immigration action and, as a result, Democratic Senator Joe Manchin says Republicans would have his vote.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: I've always said we should not fool with the homeland security. It should be a clean bill. We shouldn't send the signal that we can't even get by securing our nation without having it attached with riders or conditions.

So I've said to my Republican friends give us a vote on a clean homeland security bill. I will support the actions as basically on a bill that would prevent the president from his executive actions. I would support and vote with them on that. But we need to have a clean vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: So to me, Greg, that was leadership in finding an alternative, and in doing so, they were able to get a Democrat from West Virginia to say that they would have his vote.

GUTFELD: Before I make a vote, can you tell me who made it a dirty bill at the start?

PERINO: The Republicans.

GUTFELD: OK. So...

PERINO: Well, you could go back and say it's President Obama's fault for doing the executive action, and they had to try to stop it somehow.

GUTFELD: All right. So they did it by tying it to DHS funding, which is basically the Dems are playing bridge, and Republicans are playing Tic Tac Toe. Because you knew this was going to happen. When you tied this together, you knew you were going to have to pull it apart. So it ended up exploding in your lap.

By the way, the interesting thing about a DHS shutdown is that all essential personnel remain; 13 percent are considered nonessential. So translated, taxpayers are paying for 30,000 unessential jobs. What kind of business employs 13 percent of their workforce being nonessential?

BOLLING: Government.

GUILFOYLE: Government.

PERINO: The government.

BOLLING: That's pretty good.

PERINO: Kimberly, do you like the idea that there's common sense breaking out in Washington, and some sort of compromise looks like it's possible?

GUILFOYLE: I do like that. Because I think that's what the voters expected when they, I think, set the mandate that said, "Listen, we want the people in there that are going to be true to their word; they're going to get stuff done. You're going to work together. And we don't want the same old loop that you guys are on, over and over again."

I like this, and I like Joe Manchin. I think he's very courageous. And that's why he keeps getting voted in, because he's a man who stands on principle. And he just doesn't mail it in and go, "I'm going to go with whoever the convenient political, you know, group is." Whatever, you know, they tell him to do.

Juan, do you like him?

WILLIAMS: I like Joe Manchin personally very much. I think there's very much at stake here.

PERINO: This new tactic, Juan, would force red state Democrats to have to separate -- to have to have a vote on a separate bill just about the president's executive order. Do you think that is giving them some heartburn?

WILLIAMS: No, but I mean, I think it's better. I mean, look, you know who has heartburn is Mitch McConnell, the Republican majority leader. It's what Greg was saying. You know, I mean, the poor guy, he's trying -- he said, "You know what? Republicans are going to show that we can govern. We're going to make this paralyzed Senate work."

GUILFOYLE: He doesn't want to be...

WILLIAMS: And instead he's getting, you know, eaten up by fellow Republicans in the House who send him this very partisan -- you talk about a political bill. This is pure politics, and that's why the American people...

PERINO: Why do you deal sorry for him? He -- he's found a solution.

WILLIAMS: He hasn't found a solution yet.

PERINO: He just announced -- he just announced the solution. Manchin said he would vote for it.

WILLIAMS: Manchin is one guy, Dana. He's not going to get...

PERINO: He was the first of many. He was the first of many.

WILLIAMS: That's -- well, you know what? From your perspective. Let's hope. But I just don't see it right now.

PERINO: I don't feel sorry for him. I think he was a smart man.

WILLIAMS: Oh, I think it's a smart move, but he's desperate. That's what I'm telling you.

GUILFOYLE: What are you talking about?

WILLIAMS: If he doesn't get a bill, Republicans are going to get...

PERINO: Well, he has responsibility. I don't think that he's worried about that, though.

BOLLING: No. Juan makes a very good point. But he will, though. He solved his own problem.

GUTFELD: You know what it is?

PERINO: Isn't that what we want government to do, is solve their problems?

GUTFELD: Republicans are like alcohol. They create a problem, and then it solves a problem.

PERINO: Yes, exactly.

GUTFELD: Old Homer Simpson line.

PERINO: Like medical marijuana.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: OK, coming up. CPAC kicking off tomorrow. Some big names in the Republican field will be there. Next we'll tell you what we're hoping to hear from these potential 2016 candidates.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: It's a huge week for the GOP, what some call the unofficial kickoff to the 2016 nomination process. The Conservative Political Action Conference kicks off tomorrow, and some of the biggest Republican names will be there. Scott Walker, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Rand Paul and others are all scheduled to speak at the event. What are we hoping to hear from these potential candidates?

We'll take it around. Dana, let me start with you. You spent some time over the weekend with some people on the Hill. What's the feeling on this year? It's different this year from years in the past, right?

PERINO: One of the great things about being in D.C. yesterday is I got a chance to talk to a lot of different people, take their temperature. And when I asked them about 2016, every one of them had a different perspective and a different answer. So in that way covering this election, I think, is really fun.

And I think that an event like CPAC helps you -- helps a candidate sort of focus the mind.

One of the things they've got to do is start saying, like, showing, like, a big vision, a big agenda vision. I think that has sort of been lacking so far. This is a good chance to do that. And I -- if you have a chance to go to FOXNews.com, I have an op-ed up on introducing Matt Schlapp, who is the new chairman of the American Conservative Union and a good Q&A back and forth about what they're hoping to accomplish.

BOLLING: And one of the things they want to do this year, Greg, is that they want to go -- they have a theme, "Back to the Future" theme, where they're trying to get people more actively involved. So this year not only will people speak -- some of the biggest names in the GOP will speak -- but there will be Q&A after. That kind of changes the game a little bit.

GUTFELD: I don't know. I'm less interested in seeing how candidates react among the likeminded, the people that clap for their -- for their agenda. It's not enough, if you tout an ideology.

If you look at the success of President Obama, he was 100 percent progressive. But he was also charming and strategic. And we must admit that. So you need the same criterion for a Republican. A Republican winner cannot just be conservative or you can just elect Christine O'Donnell.

GUILFOYLE: OK, who?

GUTFELD: You've got to find somebody -- well, that's what I was getting at.

GUILFOYLE: I know. I'm so curious, because I'm wondering if you think that person has emerged.

GUTFELD: My problem is, if I were in D.C., is there somebody in that group that I would go, "I've got to go see. I've got to check that person out"? I don't think so. Maybe Scott Walker, because he seems like he's got some, you know...

BOLLING: And I would agree with that. I would agree. I think Scott Walker has -- he's got a lot of wind in his sails. A lot of people are talking about Scott Walker. They may want to see, you know, some of his conservative creds, see how he holds up against some Q&A, some of the issues.

Jeb has some, you know, serious issues with -- some type of conservatives will have a problem with him, and the Q&A may pose a bit of a problem. See how he handles it. He may handle it great. Rand Paul expected to win. He won last year the straw poll.

GUILFOYLE: He certainly has a lot of support.

BOLLING: Who -- who has the most to gain and the most to lose?

GUILFOYLE: I think that Scott Walker is definitely up and coming, but if you're asking who the stronghold right now is, it's Jeb Bush. And I think he's being very proactive in terms of the people that he is assembling. Quite diverse, strong people on national security and foreign policy. He was a very successful governor in Florida. And I think that is going to count. He's got managerial experience. He understands the economy. And I think that he's a person that's willing to listen to all sides and evolve. So I think he -- he's in a very good position.

BOLLING: Juan, Mike Huckabee said he's going to skip CPAC this year. Mistake?

WILLIAMS: Yes, I think he's -- obviously, his base is evangelical. And he's going to really put his money out in Iowa. But I think it's good for him to speak to the base of the party. And especially, this is a media convention. You should see Radio Row there. Reporters coming from all around. Our own Sean Hannity is going to be there.

GUTFELD: What?

WILLIAMS: Yes. Mark Levin, Laura Ingraham, Brent Bozell. So this is, you know, Lollapalooza for conservatives, right?

GUTFELD: That's depressing.

WILLIAMS: Yes, there we go.

But I -- and so, you know, but I like the idea. I think Scott Walker, you know, he had a great showing out in Iowa. So people want to see if there's going to be a follow-up. Is he going to be the star of the show?

But you've also got an opportunity for Jeb Bush to take on all the issues that the base has with him. So I really would like to see that.

GUILFOYLE: I think he's going to be well-prepared.

WILLIAMS: But I would like to know if the Republicans are going to, like, say, "Oh, evolution. I don't know."

PERINO: Oh, please.

WILLIAMS: "Inoculation, I don't know."

BOLLING: Hold on. Hold on. Before you get -- you've got to say...

GUILFOYLE: You can stop right there. Who's that weirdo on?

BOLLING: Dana, Boehner and McConnell, they're not going to join the conference this year. Should they?

PERINO: I think not if you're -- the focus is 2016 and people getting excited about who they think they might want to support in 2016. Neither Boehner nor McConnell are planning to run for president, which I think is a good thing. They've got enough to do working on the Congress.

I actually think that somebody who has the most to gain from this conference is Marco Rubio.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, definitely.

PERINO: Because he's been able to hold his own, getting some media attention here and there. But if he does really well at CPAC, that could actually help him a lot.

GUTFELD: Got to leave it right there.

GUILFOYLE: That was the final comment. Thank you.

PERINO: Thank you.

BOLLING: All right. Coming up, David Axelrod is the latest Democrat taking some major shots at Hillary Clinton. He's even calling her current support dangerous. Find out why coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: Former Obama adviser David Axelrod has been making the rounds promoting his new book. He has also used the opportunity to take some not- so-subtle shots at fellow Democrat Hillary Clinton on her likely 2016 presidential run.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID AXELROD, FORMER OBAMA ADVISOR: I'm waiting to see what she says and does, because it's not just about her. It's about every -- it's about this country. And where she wants to lead is important. This is not just a cult of personality; it's not a contest of names. It is an argument about ideas. So let's hear the ideas she's going to articulate in this election and see what she's willing to fight for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Hmm. And he went on to say that Hillary supporters might actually hurt her campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AXELROD: "Ready for Hillary" doesn't tell you what you're ready -- you're ready for what? People are so eager for her to be there that they started this organization, and it isn't -- it isn't her campaign. They're not articulating a vision that a candidate would articulate, and yet there's this cult of personality growing up, and that's dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Wow. So let me just tell you, in the book "Believer," Axelrod actually writes that, you know, back in '06, he was saying, look, Hillary Clinton is not a healing figure. So you've got to think, if I'm a Republican, I'm reading Axelrod's book, and I'm saying here's the paradigm for how to go at Hillary Clinton. You know, it's kind of odd.

GUTFELD: But you want to talk cult of personality? He worked for President Obama. I mean, Axelrod would have thrown virgins into a volcano for Obama. That wasn't a cult; it was a bona fide religion. It made Hare Krishna look like a book club. They were crazy for him.

And you want to talk about vague? How vague is "hope and change"? You can't get more vague than that.

BOLLING: And they had some serious war going on in 2006.

GUILFOYLE: That war is still going on.

BOLLING: It's never going away.

I mean, but he makes a very good point. All these -- all these scandals, Hillary Clinton: Whitewater, the cattle futures. Remember that one? She somehow made $200,000 in cattle and no one could figure out how she made that. Travelgate, Benghazi, the foreign donors.

GUILFOYLE: Clinton Foundation.

BOLLING: It just goes on and on but she's still Teflon. She's still...

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, there's a little bit of tension.

BOLLING: ... beating everyone in the GOP. She's leading by a wide margin.

WILLIAMS: So the interesting question is here the dynamic. Do you get Obama's folks actually trying to undermine Hillary? Do you -- I mean, people who are with her from the start like you were talking about, people like Axelrod, Robert Gibbs, they're going to be out there on TV. Even Jay Carney. Are they going to be there all the time? Little darts, little things. Tearing at Hillary Clinton.

Remember last year when she said the thing about the Obama foreign policy is don't do stupid things? She was mocking? Axelrod had to come back and try to clean that up. You know?

GUILFOYLE: This is about egos. You know what's going on here, right? I mean, the Obama people, like Axelrod, do not want the Clintons in the White House. There is no love lost between these camps. OK?

So -- and President Obama is not going to go away. He's still going to think that he's president. He's going to be very vocal and around and involved and still want to exert influence in the party. He's not going to be respectful and gracious like President Bush was. He's going to be in the forefront. And there's too many...

WILLIAMS: He's protecting his legacy.

GUILFOYLE: ... egos going on here.

WILLIAMS: You know, Dana, even when it came to selecting her secretary of state, people like Axelrod, who actually likes Hillary Clinton, he says -- you know, he worked for...

GUILFOYLE: Friends like that.

WILLIAMS: ... his wife's epilepsy thing. But, you know, he said how is this going to work? How can she be loyal, given we ran such a tough campaign?

PERINO: Well, I think that what we're seeing is David Axelrod has a new book. That's important, one. Two is that he's got a new job. Right? His job now is not to -- just to protect President Obama's legacy or to tear down Hillary Clinton. He's an analyst.

And if I were them on the Clinton campaign, I would listen to him, because it was Axelrod and Plouffe that designed a campaign that beat her in 2008. So I think that, if I were those guys on the Hillary Clinton campaign in their secret bunker, that they should play his -- read his book, think about it and take it very seriously.

GUILFOYLE: I would have hired him.

WILLIAMS: Good advice from Ms. Dana Perino. "One More Thing" coming up next.

GUILFOYLE: All right.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: "One More Thing." K.G.

GUILFOYLE: K to the G? Thank you. I just want to say congratulations, a very exciting happy good news to my friends James and Kimberly Hagerty.

James is a lieutenant commander in the U.S. Navy, and he found out when he was deployed that his wife was pregnant with twins.

PERINO: Wow.

GUILFOYLE: And there they are, super cute. Noelle and Genevieve, who they call...

GUTFELD: Did he just find out now?

GUILFOYLE: No. He found out when he was deployed. He joined. He was from New York, on 9/11. And then, of course, when he got deployed when he found out, you know, his wife was pregnant. And he came back, and the little girls were fighting for their lives. His wife was hospitalized.

And there they are now. They are super healthy released. They were released from the NICU unit at Columbia at NYC. They were there for 82 days.

PERINO: Wow.

GUILFOYLE: They're home and doing great. Eight pounds each now. God bless them both. It's a great family and big fans of the show.

PERINO: Cute.

GUTFELD: Eric.

BOLLING: I have the best "One More Thing" ever. The best Led Zeppelin cover ever. Jimmy Page said it was too good not to share. Behold the Louisville Leopard Percussionists doing "Kashmir."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GRADE-SCHOOL CHILDREN PLAYING LED ZEPPELIN'S "KASHMIR")

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: And it goes on. They actually cover four Led Zeppelin songs. You can go to our Facebook, Facebook.com/TheFiveFNC, to check out the whole video.

GUTFELD: I don't know. I think they xylophoned it in.

WILLIAMS: Yes!

GUTFELD: That's a good joke.

All right, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, it really, you know, bothered me when The Hill said that my two sons were among the 50 sexiest people on Capitol Hill, but now Washington Life magazine...

GUILFOYLE: Why would it bother you?

WILLIAMS: Because they didn't put me in there. Washington Life magazine, you know, has got their, like, most influential under 30 whatever list there. And so here comes the picture of my two sons, Antonio and Rafael, as two of the leading young Republican minds. I thought, "This is crazy."

And then today I see here that Newsmax has them among the 100 most influential African-American Republicans. I couldn't believe this.

GUILFOYLE: Aren't you proud? Why don't you just become a Republican?

WILLIAMS: Get out of here. Rafael is now more influential than The Rock, L.L. Cool J and Prince.

GUTFELD: Wow.

GUILFOYLE: I love it.

PERINO: I had no doubt he would go far.

GUTFELD: All right. I'm next. Time for...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Greg's Medical Tips, 45 percent less bacteria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: You know, people often ask me as a former editor of Men's Health what's my workout regimen. And I actually went and found some tape of one of my old workouts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MONEY DOING A PUSHUP ON A TABLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Here I am. This is before I had the electrolysis and removed the hair. That -- you always do pushups, because that's a pushing exercise. I do sit-ups for the lean part of it. The session only takes 20 minutes, and you get to look like me. Of course, the electrolysis also helps.

PERINO: Who holds your feet down?

GUTFELD: I can't tell you.

GUILFOYLE: I thought you get waxed.

PERINO: OK. It's time for...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Dana's iPhone tips.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: OK, don't worry. It's not going to be a regular feature, because I'm never going to do this again. I've spent the last two days without a phone. The reason why, I did something very careless. I had my phone in my back pocket. I was getting ready to pack. I got everything done, and then I dropped the phone in the toilet and I haven't had a phone for two days.

GUTFELD: You got everything done and then you dropped it?

GUILFOYLE: Oh!

BOLLING: Oh!

GUILFOYLE: Boo!

PERINO: Don't keep your iPhone in your back pocket.

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