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The Five

ObamaCare architect takes bipartisan beating on Capitol Hill

This is a rush transcript from "MediaBuzz," December 9, 2014. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino, along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Bob Beckel, Eric Bolling and Tom Shillue. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

The Obamacare architect, who repeatedly called American voters stupid, faced some of their angry representatives today, on Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ELIJAH CUMMINGS, DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN: I'm extremely frustrated with Dr. Gruber's statements. They were irresponsible, incredibly disrespectful, and deny reflect reality.

DARELL ISSA, OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: The night before last I was at the Kennedy Center Honors, where they honored Tom Hanks, famously Forrest Gump, the ultimate in successful stupid men. Are you stupid?

JONATHAN GRUBER, FORMER HEALTH CARE LAW ADVISOR: I don't think so, no.

TREY GOWDY, REPUBLICAN-SOUTH CAROLINA, 4th DISTRICT: What did you mean by, too stupid to understand the difference?

GRUBER: Congressman, I didn't mean anything about it by...

GOWDY: Well you said it, you had to admit it.

GRUBER: I was once again being glib and trying to make myself seems smarter.

CYNTHIA LUMMIS, WYOMING GOP REPRESENTATIVE: The so-called glibness that has been reference today, have direct consequences for real American people. So get over your damned foolishness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Jonathan Gruber was very apologetic during the House hearing. But he denied claim the major role in helping craft the president signature legislation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRUBER: I'm not a politician, nor a political advisor. And I was not the architect of President Obama's health care plan. I'm an economist who ran a complex micro simulation model to help Republican and Democratic politicians and their advisors understand the impact that their policies would have on the health care systems.

(END VIDEO CLIP) PERINO: That's quite a different account of his involvement from the one he gave during a lecture at MIT, a few years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GRUBER: This bill tries to -- and let me, full disclaimer. I'm going to describe objectively but I helped write it. So I'm going to -- I'll be objective, I'll try to objective but just full disclaimer out involve in writing the legislation.

(END VIDEO CLIP) PERINO: So how does Gruber explain claims like that?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUMMIS: You have said in 2012 remarks novelist, that you wrote part of Obamacare yourself. What parts did you write yourself?

GRUBER: If I said that, that was once again an effort to seem more important than I was.

(END VIDEO CLIP) PERINO: OK. Kimberly, do you think this guy's getting a lot of dates? I mean --

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Thank you, for comment to me about that.

PERINO: I just want to cut to the chase, and this is a guy who was very --

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

PERINO: He was flash buckling right? In front of his students and he thought he was so cool and then he gets in front of congress. So, was he telling the truth before or after he got sworn in?

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, he went from Johnny Depp to Johnny Deep. Dana, you have to believe that. Look, I think he does, I'm sorry good. He seemed like he was sorry. I believe that he is. Not just sorry that he got caught, but I think he understands that those are very irresponsible, very rude, mean spirited comments that he made about the American people. That is far as it goes, because the rest of it, he knows what he was doing and that he was part of this whole thing, the art of this perpetuating a fraud on the American people, claiming one thing when in fact, they knew it was going to do just the other and that premium send deductibles would rise. So, and that, and that's the problem with it. Because it's that going to be enough -- ultimately for some like the U.S. Supreme Court to toss it out? No, but it's going to leave a bad taste in their mouth. That's the human factor, but ultimately be the tax issue that will take us down.

PERINO: What do you think today, when you -- I know that you watched the whole thing, you were glued.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: So I wanted to see it. I was anxiously awaiting it and once I got to watching it, I realized, they shouldn't have done it. They shouldn't have called him because, he was so -- he was such a villain before, all of the discrepancies between what he said then, and what we know now, and what he did was he apologized from the better probably -- when I saw, probably 45 minutes of it. The only real substance that I saw come out of that is when Jim Jordan said, how much he got paid, and he wouldn't answer. Then he had to lean on his lawyer and find out if he could say how much he was paid. There was kind interesting TV but...

PERINO: A lot of taxpayer money being spent.

BOLLING: A lot -- yeah, well right. And it seems journalist is talking about how much tax payer money -- what he was being paid. He got to pay a lot of money, you have $400,000 -- minimum some say up to $2.5 million or more. And he wouldn't say it -- looking back, I think they should not -- they had the ball in Gruber, in Obamacare and I think they gave it up.

BOB BECKEL, CO-HOST: Yeah. PERINO: Do you think Bob, that Gruber did a great job today?

BECKEL: Well, he did a great job of I'm doing not doing a very great thing. I mean -- I think, yeah, I think the apology thing was well done, but I think in the long run -- it's Kimberly pointed out, you discussed some supreme court implications coming up. We got some.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

BECKEL: Big decisions on the court. How much this guy has said? How much controversy he's raised as a result of this, may or may not impact that court. I don't know, but I mean, I don't think one hearing is going to undo the problems that he created for himself.

PERINO: The Democrats -- Tom, were mad at him as well as the people.

TOM SHILLUE, GUEST CO-HOST: Yeah. That was nice.

PERINO: They were mad for another reason.

SHILLUE: Yeah.

PERINO: One of the reasons they were mad is because it caused a PR problem for the Democrats.

SHILLUE: Yeah. And that's another reason Eric, why they shouldn't have this. They should never have these congressional hearings, because it gives a chance for -- you know, in this case, the Democrats to get up and pretend that they're angry too, but they're not angry. The most remarkable thing about Gruber is that he's unremarkable. Everyone involved in the Obamacare thinks the American people are stupid. -- That's what, that's what it is. And it's all -- you know, everyone knows that this is -- this is the first step in single payer. Obama said it himself. We have video of Obama before he ever ran for president saying, this is the beginning, this is how we get to single payer.

GUILFOYLE: That's Bob's happy ending.

BECKEL: That is, it is. It is of many happy endings in my life that would be -- well, among the top three or four.

PERINO: Indeed, thanks.

SHILLUE: But that's what they.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

SHILLUE: Would you say that Gruber thinks the same thing? That's why they shouldn't have this guy in front of the committee to apologize. They should just keep showing the video of him, saying that the American people are stupid.

PERINO: That's an interesting thought.

BECKEL: The thing is it, this already discriminate. (ph) But I think Obamacare is doing terrifically well. And so, I don't --

PERINO: Oh, good. I'm glad you gave us a transition. Because, I want to ask Eric about this, what do you think to the overall economic costs of Obamacare has been on the economy, when you look at some of the good job numbers from last month. But overall, the last six years -- do you think that Obamacare has been the weight that Republicans thought it would be?

BOLLING: It -- It hasn't been implemented. Wait until the employer mandate gets in, I think at the end of 2015. Then we'll going to find out how many, how many companies -- they actually do cut employees because, they don't want to pick up the tab on Obamacare or they cut the hours, those are where, really starts to filter in. It's it -- like I said, their initial cost estimate was unaffecting the debt. Remember? It will not affect the debt at one, not one single dime, and then it became $500 billion and then it became a trillion. We don't know what it's going to cost, I have no idea how much it's going to cost. But every week, there are different companies who say, we're going to limit our employees hours to under third excess (ph) we don't want take up on Obamacare.

BECKEL: Where do you get this (inaudible) figure from?

BOLLING: It's in CBO.

BECKEL: CBO?

BOLLING: Nine -- I'm sorry, $800 and -- I believe it's $865 billion.

PERINO: Just to be precise.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: Kimberly, later tonight, you're going to be on O'Reilly and one of your discussions is going to be about what is the true cost the numbers and the premiums and the deductibles. I think that, that is the piece that people are looking at and not realizing that the impact is having on families which is the premiums are gone up for sure, but the deductibles have -- as well?

GUILFOYLE: Deductibles have gone up quite a bit, and then in addition, we were all sold this, not just the people who were relying on the uninsured that were going to get Obamacare. But, the people who have employee backed and sponsored insurance, their deductibles have gone up and an increasing of a three percent as well. We were told that this wasn't going to happen. In fact, he worked he going to be paying more, everyone's will going to be able to get -- you know, keep their saying doctor, but in fact, that's not the reality of what has transpired. And then yet, there's more to come, as Eric points out, of course when the employer mandate kicks in to effect in 2015, and then you're going to see some hard numbers about how it's going to happen in the economy.

BECKEL: Well then, you going to see it's part numbers. But the truth it matters is, the -- premiums have gone up less than they would have without Obamacare. At least it's on that.

PERINO: How do you know that? BECKEL: Well, because the average increase of premiums prior to this three percent -- and Kimberly

BOLLING: But that's not how they promise, Bob.

BECKEL: What?

BOLLING: That's not what the promise.

BECKEL: No. I, I understand that --

BOLLING: The promise was the premiums are going down, but that's not what happened. It's just going up slow -- at the slow rate.

BECKEL: But the fear factor that you all sent out there that it was going to go up 15 percent to 30 percent.

GUILFOYLE: No. That's just for people who have -- employee's sponsored insurance Bob. Like, for Fox News, you were covered by Fox, right? So therefore, your deductibles and your cost were going to go up three percent 3 percent or half in fact. But for people who didn't have insurance, it's actually quite higher.

SHILLUE: And -- that was the whole design, was get the benefit in, show people that we have the benefits and then you're going to pay for it later. I mean, it takes 10 years to implement the whole thing, right? This is the Columbia record and tape club of government. They do use the freebies upfront and then you get that bill.

PERINO: My dad never let me joined that.

SHILLUE: You screwed it up.

PERINO: I think he was so annoyed. I really wanted to join that.

SHILLUE: Yeah, because.

PERINO: I thought it was such a good deal.

SHILLUE: Your dad knew that, that bill was going to come later.

PERINO: It was like -- it was a pass to single payer.

(LAUGHTER)

PERINO: It was. Let me ask you the last -- I want to ask Tom the last question. So, this is a performer, because you do a lot of standup comedy and things. So, Gruber has to perform in front of his students, right? So, how -- do you think he's embarrassed at all to go back into the classroom after.

SHILLUE: No.

PERINO: Being slow, arrogant, and talking about how stupid the American people were and now having to -- wobble in front of the Congress?

SHILLUE: No, because he was -- he was arrogant in front of the students but then, he ain't humble pie in front of Congress. He did a great job, you know, that's why he got the (inaudible) watching saying, they shouldn't have this hearings because, anyone who sits in front of those hearings, looks like the victim. They're the lead in their own little play and the villains are all those people yelling at them from the -- you know, from, from -- on high.

BOLLING: Catch on one more thing at there, he refuted the thing that we had, we had him dead to the wall on tape, saying that you were the architect of Obamacare. They ask him four, five times wherein he said, no.

PERINO: No.

BOLLING: He had this.

PERINO: Even it is on tape abort (ph)

BOLLING: Even it is on tape. But, but now, everyone now, they're going to pick this out and say, he's not the architect.

GUILFOYLE: Somebody else. Who are they?

BOLLING: By the way, you know what he is the architect of? He's the architect of calling it a mandate. They couldn't get Obamacare paid for unless they mandated Obamacare, he's the one who came up with that idea.

GUILFOYLE: And that's the worst part of it.

BOLLING: But that's the part that should have pounded today, on -- the hill. Were you the one who came up with the idea the mandate and did President Obama wanted to do it? Did he do it because you told him to do it, and it was a yes.

PERINO: Maybe you can get then on tattooed in and then you could ask them over some questions.

BECKEL: The other thing is I will bet you going back to his, to his classrooms. I'll bet you the line to get into his classroom next year are going to be unbelievably.

SHILLUE: Oh yeah.

BECKEL: Right?

SHILLUE: He's a celebrity.

PERINO: Well it is -- the vast left-wing academic complex.

BECKEL: It is force it, to everyone, under those all of it, vast left-wing history. We know that.

PERINO: Gutfeld is not here to back me up, but it's right. All right, on the same day as Gruber's testimony, Senate Democrats released a report on the CIA's controversial interrogation techniques with the blessing of the White House. While admitting it's going to pose a danger to Americans in overseas, next on The Five.

GUILFOYLE: On the field (ph)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: Today, Senate Democrats released a controversial report on enhanced CIA interrogations that even the White House admits could put American troops overseas in danger. Intelligence Committee Chair Senator Dianne Feinstein presented the findings earlier and defended the timing of the report's release.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIR: History will judge us by our commitment to adjust society governed by law, and the willingness to face an ugly truth and say, never again. There may never be the right time to release this report. The instability we see today will not be resolved in months or years. But this report is too important to shelve indefinitely.

(END VIDEO CLIP) GUILFOYLE: Former Vice President Dick Cheney vehemently disagrees, telling The New York Times quote, "What I keep hearing out there is, they portray this as a rogue operation and the agency was way out of bounds and then they lied about it. I think that's all a bunch of hooey. The program was authorized and as far as I'm concerned, they ought to be decorated, not criticized. We kept the country safe from any more mass casualty attack. It was to the right thing to do and if I had to do it over again, I would do it." As for the timing of this report, Colonel Ralph Peters says that helps no one but our enemies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RALPH PETERS, FOX NEWS STRATEGIC ANALYST: Doing it at this time Shaun, amounts to nothing less than providing aid and comfort to the enemy. There is no practical value, practical utility, practical advantage gained by releasing this report. The only people that gained are the terrorists who can now rev up the propaganda machine again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: All right Bolling, we're going to bring you in on this.

BOLLING: OK. So, -- give me a second here. So, I heard all -- all the run down, I heard at 3 o'clock all about what they used to.

BECKEL: Are you sure you.

BOLLING: Enhance, interrogate -- what?

BECKEL: Under the kid (ph) with you.

BOLLING: I have no idea what you are talking about.

BECKEL: So.

BOLLING: Are you coming up? I get it. OK, so I heard all about the techniques that they used, the enhanced interrogations, I heard too much of it to be honest with you. Here's what we do know, the CIA briefed Congress 30 times the briefings were detailed in graphic in due reactions that range from, approval to no objections. In September of 2006, the administration decided to brief full committee and staff directors, there was no consensus which means, proceed. Senator John D. Rockefeller, the ranking Democrat and the Senate intelligence committee said, about to lead Sheikh Mohammed, he's in safe keeping under American protection, he'll be grilled by us. I'm sure we'll be proper with him, but I'm sure will be very, very tough on him. That aside, now, what happened? So, the CIA interrogated Abu --

PERINO: Zubaydah.

BOLLING: Zubaydah. Abu Zubaydah, who led us to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who turned around and called people or contacted people in the dark zone, in the dark areas and said, "be careful who you talk to and what you say." That turned over al Kuwaiti. Al Kuwaiti happened to be bin Laden's carrier, we followed al Kuwaiti to Islamabad, where we found bin Laden. Here's the point, if President Obama wants to take a victory lap for getting bin Laden, he better realize that it all came from enhanced interrogation by the CIA. Don't go and say GM is alive but bin Laden's dead.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

BOLLING: Without giving a head tip to the CIA interrogation.

GUILFOYLE: That's what led to Abbottabad. OK, go ahead.

BECKEL: Well, first of all, the thing that struck me about, this is the George Bush did not hear about these actions until 2006. When he did his reaction was, fairly negative about it. He and also is clear that they did not follow the guidelines of their own justice department. The CIA went outside the downs of that. And the fact that matter is, if we do this sort of thing and if we stand for anything in this world, it stands for justice and following the rule of law. And these guys went outside the announcement (ph) beyond with the President of the United States thought was doing. I'm not surprised about Dick Cheney, he do about anything. But I -- but on this case, I think that even George Bush didn't know who's going out there.

GUILFOYLE: No.

BECKEL: And I think he didn't like it.

GUILFOYLE: Dick Cheney would do what is lawfully approved.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Which is was, and there were plenty of investigations and no criminal charges filed.

BECKEL: No.

GUILFOYLE: He would do what it takes to protect this country. Because all the rest of us just sitting around this table and joined the benefit of not having another mass casualty attack in the United States, so they were able to garner Dick Cheney, important intelligence.

BECKLE: Because of these torture techniques, you think that's the reason? And there's absolutely no proof. GUILFOYLE: I didn't say it was the rest cause direct cost.

BOLLING: No, no, the.

GUILFOYLE: They certainly played in. They certainly played in, Dana.

BECKEL: There's certain position, the FBI doesn't agree with that.

PERINO: I think that this report has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. They did not talk to anybody that was actually in the program. Now, the single interrogator talked to them for the report. So, I am not willing to say that this report is actually the end-all, be all, the comprehensive report that they're trying to make it out to be. I would point people to a report, a 39-page document, and the reason I think 39 pages because it struck me. It is thorough and thought out by a guy named Jason Pye, that's his pseudonym that he uses, he was an interrogator. And if you go to the weeklystandard.com website, Stephen Hayes, both talks to him and he puts up the entire 39-pages that walk you through from an interrogator stand point. And if you care about this issue at all, and you want to believe the Senate Democrats, I think you are under an obligation to read somebody like John Dehls work as well as I did today and I was persuaded by it. Imagine if the Democrats were so disturbed by law breaking behavior, by government employees at a place like, say, the IRS. Do you imagine the kind things.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

PERINO: That we might be able to find out that are happening to Americans, not to terrorists. What is more infuriating, 9/11 attacks? And the authorities brought by -- over and over again by radicalized terrorists? Or, the interrogations that our CIA sought to do in order to protect us.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Let's bring in to sound bite Charles Krauthammer said to more light on this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: When you hear the president's spokesman say that they know that it could endanger Americans, you ask yourself, why would the president insist on the release of this, knowing that it could harm lead to the death of Americans serving under him as commander in chief.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Tom.

SHILLUE: Exactly. If there's -- why are you releasing information if it's going to hurt Americans. And, you know, I think that the -- why do we have notes at all? Why are there notes from this? Why is this stuff to release? These are supposed to be black sites, I don't understand why they were writing any of this down.

PERINO: Because they were following the law.

SHILLUE: that is the problem -- I mean, that is the issue Right? In the Bush administration, they did try to follow the law. Remember John Hugh, he had -- you know, he went with fine toothed comb, went through all of their policies, and to make sure that they were up against that line in legality. What good that they do? Because it is.

GUILFOYLE: Then he dropped it and then they wanted to prosecute him.

SHILLUE: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: For doing his job. Then all of these things.

SHILLUE: Because it force of them most.

GUILFOYLE: Right. But all these things are already have been adjudicated, there was no illegal activity taking place. So, if anyone is try to say, otherwise, they are not having a good relationship with the truth and the facts. Because, also when you look at this report, like Dana mentioned, no CIA personnel, an easy interrogates, anyone involved with it was even allowed to proffer any testimony, evidence, whatsoever for the report. So what you're getting then is second hand, you're not even getting it directly from the people who in fact participated in it. So I don't see how that can be considered a full and fair accounting of exactly what transpired. And I said what we have is now we're putting out to our allies, who were so courageous on our behalf, we put them on a bad position and now, they're just waving the flag from more Jihadist to be able to recruit it, to be recruited to pour into Syria and other places to do Americans that are allies from us.

BECKEL: But none of this has not been out already, I mean, it's not as if this is a brand-new revelation on a lot of people's parts, and secondly, when you talk to people who do the -- who have done the enhancement, talk about Saudi Arabia, and those -- the basement torture chambers they us, which turn these guys over to Saudis have, how are you going to interrogate the Saudis?

GUILFOYLE: What? What Bob?

BECKEL: And by the way, it does the say, what you said, what they said in on certain terms that they went beyond with the justice department guidelines were. Now, the prosecutor results to that understand it.

BOLLING: Bob, these were all -- are all techniques they were brief, the Senate and the house were both briefed on 30 occasions, I told you about that.

BECKEL: I see.

BOLLING: They couldn't come up with -- a no, they didn't tell them stop doing it. They didn't tell them not to do it, they went forward with it. Here are a couple of fallouts from it. First of all, for the record, I still think it's OK to do something like this as long as it's done in a fair way. I think the torture -- I'm sorry, the enhanced interrogation techniques, I think they served their purpose, I think they made us safer. I look -- the producers going to hate me for doing this, take awhile in here. Look, I watched my friends jump out of these buildings, I saw friends leap out of these buildings on 9/11. ISIS is beheading Americans. What's worse, that? Or, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed getting some water splashed on his face or someone else getting slapped or hearing loud musing or kept awake for 100 hours.

GUILFOYLE: Loud music in a way for three days, for law school preparing for the Bar exams.

BOLLING: Difficult hearing things to it sounds like a big, bad thing. I have friends who don't have a father right now, because they went to work one day and expected him to come home and didn't, OK? Their kids don't have fathers.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

BOLLING: But the father -- don't have husbands. What's better? Some enhanced interrogation or 3,000 more Americans dying at one time.

GUILFOYLE: Bob, you have a comment?

BECKEL: Yeah, I have a comment about it. I feel terribly sorry about your friends, but that does not change the fact that the United States of America has lives by rules and moralities that the rest of the world, most some of them don't, and for us, to step over that line, and to do these things.

BOLING: What line Bob? The line wasn't overstepped? There was -- it was legal in the step.

GUILFOYLE: There was no illegal.

BOLLING: They were made aware of it in 2002, 2004 and 2005.

GUILFOYLE: There was no illegal activity, everything they did was functioned and put together in reports. There was no criminal prosecution from this, do you understand that?

BECKEL: I understand that, today...

GUILFOYLE: Now, looking after and years and saying, you know, we don't like what you did. Why didn't you any of the Senators who are on this intelligence committee and were previewing this information, why didn't you object then and why are you doing it now.

BOLLING: Yes.

BECKEL: What.

GUILFOYLE: Coming up, President Obama calls the demonstrations against law enforcement in America necessary. He also says there's proof now that black people in America aren't exaggerating. The president, in his own words next, on The Five.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: There are wave of new protests last night across the country against law enforcement from Berkeley all the way to Brooklyn. In California, demonstrators stopped traffic in the freeway in both directions. And in New York, others stage they die-in outside the basketball game attended by Will and Kate. One person in full support of these destructive gatherings -- our president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: As long as they're peaceful, I think they're necessary. When they turn violent, then they're counterproductive. A country's conscience sometimes has to be triggered by some inconvenience. The value of peaceful protest, activism, organizing is, it reminds the society this is not yet done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: The president, though, thinks the protests are necessary, and he also took this swipe at law enforcement during his interview with BET.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The vast majority of law enforcement officers are doing a really tough job, and most of them are doing it well. But a combination of bad training in some cases, a combination in some cases that accidents that really are not trying to root out biases and in a lot of cases, subconscious fear of folks who look different, all of this contributes to a national problem that's going to require a national solution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: So Dana, I believe it was yesterday, the president said, with regard to race, he said there's deep-rooted racism in America. Today he was talking about a national problem. Is he helping or hurting the cause?

PERINO: I think -- well, I think that what he's going to do is going to make it his cause. If you read the New York Times today, there's an article that's headlined "Unrest Over Racists Testing Obama's Legacy."

Basically, it talks about the next two years. The president is being pushed by some in -- some of his advisors to make this next two years to really be about fixing what they see as a race problem.

Maybe that was a good goal. I don't know how successful they'll be.

It's interesting, because I think the reason he did the BET interview was that, one, captive audience. And those supporters of his, largely supporters of his, are frustrated with him, because they think he has not done enough.

Yesterday, we had the Bloomberg poll that showed 53 percent of Americans believe that race relations have been made worse because of President Obama's administration's actions.

So I think time will tell what they decide to do. And there's a lot of problems in the world. I think that one of the things is that the police problem, if there is a problem, and they want to prove that there's a problem and try to fix it. That's one thing.

What they're not doing, in my opinion, is talking about the root causes of these problems, one being the makeup of the family and education. And supporting school choice and improving the schools would be the first way to try to solve that problem.

BOLLING: Bob, is President Obama and Eric Holder, by default, are they handing the race relations in America properly?

BECKEL: I think they're doing fine. Let me tell you one thing. You do a poll on top of Ferguson and on top of what happened on Staten Island, of course you're going to get that kind of feeling that there's not being enough done on -- the racial divide has increased.

But secondly, I see nothing that Obama said here that you could probably -- possibly have a difference with. He said demonstrations are legitimate, and they are unless they turn violent. Then they're counterproductive. We all agree with that.

He said that there was certain police -- some, a small number of police departments that were not rooting out people who were racial -- that weren't training well. I think we can agree with that.

BOLLING: Do we approve (ph) of that?

BECKEL: I mean, I think if you just take Ferguson alone, Ferguson alone did not have an active program to recruit minority police officers.

BOLLING: Has there -- has there been any indication in Ferguson that Michael Brown died because he was black? Or did he die because...

BECKEL: I'm not talking about Michael Brown. He's talking about police department. Now, if you...

GUILFOYLE: His comments are in reaction to those two incidents.

BECKEL: If you -- if you believe for a minute that, in police departments across the country, every one of them are doing everything they can to enhance race relations, it is crazy.

GUILFOYLE: OK, but there's a different premise that's at the basis of the president's comments, and what he is suggesting -- and I think very irresponsibly and erroneously -- is that there is systemic racism in America's police departments. I would like to see the proof and the evidence.

BECKEL: He didn't say that.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, he did. He suggested that there are police departments that aren't doing anything about it.

BECKEL: Some -- some small number of...

GUILFOYLE: Individuals that are beyond people, just based on their race. And all of this is coming in the light of Ferguson and in light of the decision not to indict in the Eric Garner case. Where even that family said it had nothing to do with race. And there was an African-American sergeant in charge at the scene, female at the time of the Eric Garner arrest.

BOLLING: Let me get this in here and get Tom in here on this one. Even though Eric Garner's own family -- Eric Garner's own family doesn't believe his death had anything to do with his race, Obama -- President Obama used his case as an example of what African-Americans have warned about for a long time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: What we've seen now on videotape, there used to be folks who said, "Well, maybe blacks are exaggerating. Maybe it was -- some of these situations aren't what they describe." What we've now seen on television, for everybody to see, gives us an opportunity, I think, to finally have the kind of conversation that's been a long time coming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: Tom, President Obama injected race into Garner when the family didn't even.

SHILLUE: Well, that's what -- that's what the entire solution seems to be race-based.

But he said that -- President Obama said most police are doing a good job. He said there's a small number of people who have a problem. And he said, so it requires an actual solution. Why? If it's a small number, why do you need a national solution?

And, you know, this quote: "It's probably a fear of folks who live different."

The American police forces are the most integrated. It's just like the military. You know, it's not white cops walking around thinking that black people look different. They're the ones in the neighborhoods. Black people are not different. They're the people they see every day.

What the police in this country need is someone to head -- like a Wayne La Pierre to stand out there and defend police. Because there's no one out there, you know. It's like you talk to a cop on a street corner, and they defend themselves pretty well. They need a guy at the front of the police, like Wayne La Pierre who's going to stand up for them.

Why are you laughing at that?

GUILFOYLE: Bob goes nuts.

BOLLING: ... Wayne La Pierre on the show.

SHILLUE: But like him or hate him, Wayne La Pierre, he does good work for the NRA.

BECKEL: Have we determined whether he's got a citizenship or not yet? I'm sorry.

You know, one thing about the New York City Police Department, for example, as a side of what you say, the majority of the New York City Police Department are people of color. They are -- whites are a minority in the police department. I think 48 percent; 52 percent are African-American, Hispanic or Asian.

SHILLUE: And the majority of people that the department helps in these neighborhoods are minority. The police department saves the lives of so many black and brown people, and they have to get that message out there. These cases are extreme outliers.

BOLLING: On that note, we have to leave it right there.

TIME magazine names its annual Person of the Year tomorrow, and we got the list of finalists. Among them, a pop star, a president, a pope, protesters, and the names we think should be on the list. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHILLUE: Tomorrow TIME names the 2014 Person of the Year. Eight finalists were revealed ahead of the announcement. And in no particular order, they are Vladimir Putin, Taylor Swift, and NFL commissioner Roger Goodell. Apple's Jim Cook, Jack Ma, founder of e-commerce giant Alibaba. Masoud Barzani, the acting president of the Iraqi Kurdish region. All the doctors and nurses and other caregivers who treated the Ebola patients. And last but not least, the Ferguson protesters.

I think it should be one person. Dana, was your pick on this list?

PERINO: No, my pick was not on this list. And I know that TIME says the Person of the Year is someone, not necessarily because they did good things, right.

SHILLUE: Good or bad. Stalin has been on there.

PERINO: But still, if you get named TIME Person of the Year, what do you think in Russia they're going to say? They're going to say, "Oh, my gosh, he was TIME Person of the Year. It's amazing."

SHILLUE: Why would Putin have gotten it?

PERINO: My person that I would choose is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She is a scholar, a professor, author and activist. And she is working -- and she actually has a new foundation to fight Islam's war against women. And earlier this year, she was scheduled to give a speech at Brandeis University. Some bloggers complained. A student picked it up. And all of a sudden the university canceled her speech, and she was very gracious about it.

SHILLUE: She was fantastic. Of course, she would never make the list, though, would she?

GUILFOYLE: She would be the TIME person of the year.

SHILLUE: No. Kimberly?

GUILFOYLE: You know who I think we should honor today? Especially in light of the recent new developments? How about our American troops serving abroad, our Special Forces units, our CIA officers, who put so much on the line, only to be disparaged by the leaders who were well-informed at the time exactly of what they were doing. So I want to say thank you to them and thank you for putting an end to Osama bin Laden and others.

SHILLUE: I can't argue with that one. Although I like when they just pick one person. I don't like it when they diffuse and say, you know, all the soldiers.

GUILFOYLE: It's not just a matter of one.

SHILLUE: Eric.

BOLLING: So yes, yes, but TIME isn't smart enough to say who's the most important person. Then you would say one of the ones that Kimberly or Dana picked.

TIME went with who influenced the news the most over the course of the year, and at one point the Ferguson protester were up there, which is ridiculous, because the Ferguson protesters were actually rioting and looting. So I thought, because I'm a free speech advocate, the New York protesters, the Eric Garner -- in the wake of the Eric Garner case, New York has been very, very calm. It's been very, very safe. They have the right to protest, and they have been doing it the right way in New York. They're not breaking windows.

Did they do a die-in, did they do a sit-in? Yes. Did they shut down the Lincoln Tunnel for a couple hours when I was trying to get out that way? Yes. But you know what? They're protesting the right way. They have a right to do that. I like that.

SHILLUE: Eric, I'm surprised. When you first said the protester, I'm thinking what is he talking about? But that's actually not a bad argument.

Bob, I can't even guess who you're going to say.

BECKEL: You want it to make one person, so I would like one person: President Barack Obama and the success of Obamacare, which has been dramatic this the year. The fact of the matter is that people, more people are working now than they were after the first six months after he took office. Inflation has...

BOLLING: That's wrong. You realize that. That is a wrong statistic. You just said more people are working now than when he took office.

BECKEL: That's wrong?

BOLLING: Just say the right stuff.

BECKEL: I said from June until today, they're working.

BOLLING: Two million fewer people.

BECKEL: That is wrong. But anyway, the other thing is that housing sales are up. The market is at its all-time high. The gas prices have come down.

BOLLING: That's fantastic.

BECKEL: I think things are going terrifically well, and he never gets enough credit, particularly here.

SHILLUE: I feel better about America already, Bob.

BECKEL: You should.

PERINO: What about you? Did you choose one?

SHILLUE: Taylor Swift. She's on the list, and she's fantastic. "I knew you were trouble when you walked in." I love her.

BOLLING: She's fantastic?

SHILLUE: She looks great.

PERINO: I'm not laughing at her. I'm laughing at your imitation of her, which is not that bad.

SHILLUE: She's trouble, trouble; I love her. You know, I would go to her concerts, but I would feel a little weird around all these 12-year-old kids.

PERINO: I would be going with your -- with your two daughters.

SHILLUE: I'll take -- I'll take them. She's fantastic. You know what? She's classy, you know what I mean? So many of these young starlets, they feel like they have to be kind of gross and they -- you know, when they want to break through, they just have to, you know -- I think she's classy.

Next on "The Five," if you don't know how much to tip your doorman, or hairdresser or masseuse this Christmas...

PERINO: Yes, Bob.

SHILLUE: ... you're in luck, because in-house etiquette expert Bob Beckel has some suggested numbers for all of us. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BECKEL: All right. Christmas time is the time of giving, and 'tis the season to shell out big bucks to those you have to tip every year. If you're wondering what's the right amount, we're got some advice now from etiquette expert. According to Jacqueline Whitmore (ph), you should give your manicurist, which I use every time, anywhere from 25 to 50 bucks. Your hairstylist from $50 to $100. Doorman from $50 to $100. Your housekeeper up to the cost of one visit and your babysitter an evening's pay plus a gift from your kid.

All right, Kim, you have most of those things. What do you think?

GUILFOYLE: Most. And then some. You don't even know. I...

BECKEL: How much do you -- is that right, about the right figures she said?

GUILFOYLE: I don't think so. I give way more than that.

I mean, look, I don't think that's -- any -- if you're going to give, give something you can give, you know, within your means, right, whatever you can afford, and I think that's nice. It's important to do what you can to let someone know that you appreciate them. And if you are making money, then pay up.

BECKEL: How many people do you give tips to? At Christmastime?

GUILFOYLE: Probably about -- close to 50.

BOLLING: Wow.

BECKEL: Eric, you're the big tipper here. How do you give?

BOLLING: I think those -- they sound like a lot of money, but they're not. People work all the year, work with you all year. Sometimes they have to put up with guys like you and me, Bob. So hair and makeup staff, our crew here.

GUILFOYLE: Producers.

BOLLING: Producers, director. When he, you know, doesn't take that bad shot when you're profiled. No, I love tipping. Tipping's good. It makes you feel good.

BECKEL: Makes you feel good. Dana, do you agree with those numbers? Is that about what you give your manicurist and your hairstylist?

PERINO: I don't have one manicurist. So I think I'll be able to skate off on that one.

I think the doorman thing is a little low. I mean, $15 for your doorman? He will never get you a taxi, ever.

GUILFOYLE: New York City? Please, yes.

PERINO: You've got to pony up on that one.

SHILLUE: New York is a different thing, with the New York culture of doorman. People don't realize how much money...

BECKEL: Let me ask you, because as usual, my segment is decidedly long.

GUILFOYLE: It's actually over.

SHILLUE: I'm a good tipper. I like to tip 20 percent, but I will gladly go up to 25 or 30 percent if we could just automate it. I want everything to go in the apps. Like you know, these new apps like Uber and stuff like that. They put this tip right on it. I'm sick of carrying cash, I don't like those dirty bills. Automate it.

BECKEL: That's a good idea.

Now my only -- I don't have a masseuse, and I don't have...

GUILFOYLE: Yes, you do. The Cuban guy.

BECKEL: I would say...

GUILFOYLE: Remember?

BECKEL: I would say -- I mean manicurist. A masseuse I do, yes. A masseuse, I would say $200 to $250 depending on how good the massage was.

And "One More Thing" is up next. And I'm going to get out of here.

GUILFOYLE: Is that it?

PERINO: Oh, my gosh. Whoa.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: It's time now for "One More Thing," and I get to go first. I want to talk about this high school student. He's in a lot of trouble, in Broadneck High School in Arundel County in Maryland. He is busted because he was charged on juvenile citation for reckless endangerment, second degree assault and drug distribution.

What happened was he was eating his brownie, and his teacher asked if she could have a bite. And he said sure. And then she became disoriented and lethargic and she's like, "What's in this brownie." And it turns out it was a marijuana brownie. And now he's busted, because the teacher got high.

GUILFOYLE: Well, I mean...

PERINO: What do you think of that?

GUILFOYLE: Busted.

PERINO: Yes, you can't do that.

GUILFOYLE: Inappropriate.

PERINO: But it still is kind of funny.

SHILLUE: People should know to ask.

BOLLING: Had to go to the hospital.

PERINO: I mean, why would you...

BOLLING: Come on. They took her to the hospital.

GUILFOYLE: Not good, Bob.

BOLLING: It wasn't good.

GUILFOYLE: Like, let me just help you out here with a cue card. Not good.

PERINO: I never had one, so would you know? Does it taste different?

BECKEL: Yes, they taste a little -- well, sour.

PERINO: All right. We will discuss it in a commercial break.

K.G., you're next.

GUILFOYLE: I've never done any drugs. Definitely.

All right. I have a happy thing. I'm happy. So Jimmy Fallon just welcomed his second baby with his -- daughter -- with his wife, Nancy. Delivered via surrogate, which is very nice, that someone could give a gift like that so they can have a beautiful baby. So they've got the pictures up. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY FALLON, HOST, NBC'S "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JIMMY FALLON": Last week, my wife Nancy and I welcomed our second child. Frances -- Frances Cole Fallon was born, yes.

Welcome to "The Tonight Show." I'm your host, completely exhausted.

See. That's him right there. Tiny little thing. Tiny, tiny, tiny little thing. I don't know why we strapped her in. She can't even walk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Very cute, and his first daughter, Winnie Rose, is only 17 months old. So they've got two little munchkins under the age of 2.

BECKEL: That's a nice contribution. My -- by the way, I have a sperm bank contribution, if you wanted from me, you can get the sperm.

PERINO: I'm sure -- like, the phones are going to be ringing off the hook, Bob.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God. What is wrong with you?

BECKEL: I contributed.

PERINO: All right. Eric, you're next.

GUILFOYLE: God help any woman who chooses.

BOLLING: All right. OK. Hold on. Let me -- just to be serious for a few minutes here. Washington Wizards basketball star John Wall made friends with a young 6-year-old girl Miyah, who happened to have lymphoma. She lost her battle with cancer yesterday. John Wall played the game last night. And watch. Here's a man with heart. Watch this after the game.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN WALL, WASHINGTON WIZARDS PLAYER: This is for Miyah. One of my best friends that I love and I met last year. You know. This is tough, man. I mean, she's still a kid, to fight so hard against cancer and can't beat it. This game's for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She really touched your heart, didn't she?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: Tough night. Tough night. There's a picture of John Wall and poor little Miyah. We pray for her family.

GUILFOYLE: Aw, God bless her.

PERINO: Indeed.

All right, Bob, you're next.

BECKEL: This -- this Christmas season marks the 49th anniversary of the "Charlie Brown Christmas." And for those of you who have seen Charlie Brown, Charlie Brown Christmas, let's give you a hint of what's going to happen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Merry Christmas, Charlie Brown.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Merry Christmas, Charlie Brown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Merry Christmas, Charlie Brown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): Hark the herald angels sing. Glory to the newborn king.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): Hark the herald angels sing. Glory to the newborn king.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): Hark the herald angels sing. Glory to the newborn king.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECKEL: I always liked Charlie Brown, and his Christmas will be on somewhere.

PERINO: Are you like Linus?

BECKEL: Who?

PERINO: Linus?

BECKEL: Who's Linus?

PERINO: In the Charlie Brown show.

SHILLUE: Linus was -- Linus was a libertarian.

PERINO: Or Pigpen.

BECKEL: Pigpen, I like it.

SHILLUE: Pigpen's a Democrat.

I was in the Charlie Brown generation, and I was also the "Star Wars" generation. I don't look like it, but I was a "Star Wars" nerd. I'm very excited. I think we showed this trailer last time I was on.

But you know who hasn't seen the trailer? George Lucas. He told The New York Post he didn't look at the trailer. He has no interest. He wants to see the movie in the theater. Plus, he doesn't own the company anymore. He sold the whole thing to Disney.

But I think it's going to be better because he has no part in it. J.J. Abrams is a great director. So I'm very excited.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my goodness. Look at you, a bundle of excitement.

PERINO: You're like a movie critic all in one. It's been good to have you.

All right. That's it for us. "Special Report" is next.

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