DOJ Ferguson investigation continues on heels of grand jury

Former NYC Mayor Giuliani weighs in


This is a rush transcript from "Your World," November 5, 2014. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST: All right, now the Ferguson investigation may be over. The Justice Department, though, says it is not over. Considering everything we now know, could Attorney General Eric Holder still file federal charges?

To former New York City mayor and a federal prosecutor in his own right Rudy Giuliani.

Mayor, what do you think?

FORMER MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI, R - NEW YORK CITY: Well, I mean, he could. The case would be a ridiculous case.

CAVUTO: The case would be on what issue, what, racism or...

GIULIANI: I don`t know how you could possibly bring an indictment when you have seven witnesses corroborating the police officers, I think the majority of them being African-American.

There`s one particular witness, witness number 10, whose testimony I read in great detail, an African-American -- and if anyone would take the time to read it, you can get it online -- he corroborates every single detail of the police officer`s testimony.

And he says he came forward because he was so upset about the lying that was going on about Mr. Brown putting his hands up and also the lying about Mr. Brown being shot in the back.

CAVUTO: It turns out, of the dozen bullets that were fired, not a single one...



And so, if you read this testimony and then that is backed up by six other witnesses, this man is clearly innocent. This is not a question of probable cause, reasonable doubt. This man is innocent.

CAVUTO: And, Mayor, let me ask you something. I remember when you were running this city, the city of New York we`re in.

Racial strife, that was a given with your job.


CAVUTO: You just had to deal with it.

So people read into something what they will along racial lines. Now the responsibility comes as mayor, as you know.


CAVUTO: You have got to protect everybody, regardless of their skin color.

GIULIANI: Absolutely.

CAVUTO: So where do you draw the line between proper force and maybe actually instigating violence?


GIULIANI: Well, first of all, this idea that the police in riot gear and the police with heavy equipment instigate violence has just been disproven.

I mean, it`s just the opposite.

I became mayor after there had -- there had been two terrible riots in New York, each lasting four days, one in Washington Heights, one in Crown Heights.

CAVUTO: I remember.

GIULIANI: I had eight years as mayor. I had three controversial police shootings, and I had a lot of protests. I never had a single riot, and here`s why.

I showed up with massive police force in riot gear, with equipment,. And, believe me, that doesn`t cause a riot. It scares the hell out of the people who want to riot.

CAVUTO: We`re told -- and I can`t verify this, but I have heard it from enough sources that I should pass it along -- and you have heard the same thing -- that Governor Nixon in Missouri was urged by the White House to cool it on a large police and/or Guard presence, so as not to instigate anything.


Well, I will tell you, that cool it thing, they used to call it in New York venting. If you read a report by Richard Girgenti, which was written about the Crown Heights riot, that -- a Democrat.

CAVUTO: Right.

GIULIANI: That would tell you that the whole idea of venting or cooling off helps to create the riot.

The -- the way you should approach a riot is, the first stone that gets thrown, that person gets arrested. The second one, they get arrested. The minute they touch a car and hurt it, they get arrested. You stop the riot at the earliest possible moment. You do not allow a cooling off period.

CAVUTO: Well, I do remember you as mayor -- I don`t want to take you out of context, sir, but I -- that the wonderful thing about this country is, you are free to protest. Protest itself leads to change. It`s when you start looting and burning things that you lose those rights.

GIULIANI: Well, you got it.

I used to -- when we had a protest that had the possibility of moving on to riots, I would always have a press conference and I would set the rules.

Here were the rules. You can protest all you want. You can yell and you can scream. The minute you throw a rock, the minute you harm a piece of property, I`m going to arrest you.

If I have to arrest two, I will arrest two. If I have to arrest 10,000, I will arrest 10,000. And I want you to listen to me closely. There will be a lot more police there than you. So you got the rules, protest all you want. Commit a crime, you`re going to jail.

CAVUTO: But what if it`s -- we have focused on Ferguson, Mayor, but what if it`s instigators outside Ferguson?

We already had confirmation of reports that a lot of people were coming in and booking hotels days, weeks ahead of this grand jury decision, planning for something. Now, there`s this added element of Occupy Wall Streeters who are connecting and spreading out this -- this protest movement. How do you deal with that?

GIULIANI: The same way. The minute they violate the law, you arrest them.

CAVUTO: But what if they haven`t violated anything? They are just instigating?

GIULIANI: Well, OK. They`re not violating anything -- if they are not violating anything, if they`re instigating, but not...

CAVUTO: So, they are free to instigate?

GIULIANI: Let them instigate. If it doesn`t lead to anything, you can`t do anything.

CAVUTO: But they are lying. They`re misrepresenting themselves.

GIULIANI: They might be, but if it doesn`t lead to them throwing rocks, beating up people, hurting people, harming property...

CAVUTO: Right.

GIULIANI: The dividing line is, first crime, first arrest.

I was watching a lot of this on Sean -- with Sean Hannity the night that it was happening. I was on his show. And then I got stuck. I was there for about 45 minutes. And I was telling him this.

CAVUTO: Oh, this is why you were ignoring my calls on Fox Business.


CAVUTO: I will talk to Sean.

But go ahead.

GIULIANI: But the reality is, I could see -- I could see rocks being thrown. I could see -- I can see stores being burned, and I saw the police doing nothing.

CAVUTO: Right. I remember just seeing them standing there.


GIULIANI: And I said to myself...

CAVUTO: Someone must have advised them, don`t do anything.

GIULIANI: Nobody taught you how to deal with a riot.

I teach emergency management. First rule is, you arrest the first person that commits a crime. And...


CAVUTO: Is there a rule about already known powder kegs, that that kind of behavior makes it worse?

GIULIANI: Yes, of course, of course, and you keep track of them.

CAVUTO: Right.

GIULIANI: You keep track of them, you keep a record of them, you get pictures of them. You know the ones that are the instigators.

I mean, every -- every protest we had, we knew the ones that were going to...


CAVUTO: And what would you have done in this city? Because you saw the incident where they were spraying red paint at them, that it just was spontaneous. And I remember.

GIULIANI: Right. Right.

CAVUTO: I was walking back after my coverage on the air, the one that you ignored for Sean Hannity.


CAVUTO: And I`m kidding. I`m kidding.

And I`m wondering, like, what the hell is going on here? But it was just spontaneous, grew out of nowhere.

GIULIANI: When it`s spontaneous, then you have got to react really, really quickly.

CAVUTO: Right.

GIULIANI: And the NYPD is good at that.

So I would wonder with the governor and the mayor, did they have any pre-planning? Did they do...

CAVUTO: It doesn`t look like they did.

GIULIANI: Did they do any tabletop exercises?

CAVUTO: I`m saying nothing against our law enforcement. It looks like they had no idea this was coming.

GIULIANI: So, when we had the Million Man March in New York...

CAVUTO: Right.

GIULIANI: ... we planned for that for -- for six -- for six weeks.

CAVUTO: No booping around. No booping around.

GIULIANI: We got it limited -- we got it limited to six blocks. We had helicopters up in the air.


GIULIANI: And we kept control of it.

And they knew they couldn`t fool around with us.

CAVUTO: Yeah. I remember that as well. I was afraid to throw anything on the ground.


GIULIANI: Well, nothing happened. Nobody got hurt.


GIULIANI: Because they knew...

CAVUTO: Got you.

GIULIANI: ... that there would be consequences.

CAVUTO: Something was not communicated that way in Ferguson. All right.

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