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The Five

Gruber who? White House logs at odds with Obama denial

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," November 17, 2014. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Bob Beckel, Eric Bolling, this jokester, it's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

Jonathan Gruber, who? The MIT professor was integral in helping craft President Obama signature legislation, but the president can't seem to remember him now that videos has surfaced at Gruber, admitting, Americans were deceived about ObamaCare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I just heard about this, I get well briefed before I come out here. The fact that some adviser, who never worked on our staff, expressed an opinion that I completely disagree with, in terms of the voters is no reflection on the actual process that was run. The one thing we can't say is that we did not have a lengthy debate about health care in the United States of America, or that it was not adequately covered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEIRNO: The professor, on the other hand remembers President Obama very well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN GRUBER, OBAMACARE ARCHITECT: Now, the problem is it's a political nightmare, and people say no, you can't tax my benefits, it feels like -- so, what we did in that room was think about, well, how could, talk about well how could we this work? And Obama's like well, you know -- I mean he's really a realistic guy. Look, I can't just do this, he said, it's just not going to happen politically. The bill in my pass, how can we manage to get there through phases and other things, and we talked about it, and which is very interested in that topic. And once again, that hopefully can make adjust in what's called the Cadillac tax.

(END VIDEO CLIP) PERINO: According to the White House visitor's log, Gruber visited in nearly 20 times to the White House and the president, Eric, says that he is very well briefed, every day, and that was just yesterday, this has been going on for a week, he said he's just heard about it, do you think that anyone told him today that the Gallup poll had ObamaCare down to 37 percent approval?

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: A record low.

PERINO: A record.

BOLLING: The lowest spent. So, the president apparently gets well briefed because he watches ABC and NBC, but he fails to watch Fox, because if he had watched Fox, we would have told him about Gruber a really, really long time ago. The pack of lies that they keep throwing us, you can keep your doctor, you can keep your insurance, it's not a tax, I don't know who Gruber is, those were all -- fine, I mean, you can say that all you want. The problem is, when the other part of the law, is the cost part of it, and when they said it was going to bend the cost care down, this whole ObamaCare was for individuals, it's not. They said it was gonna reduce premiums by $2,500 per family, it's actually gone up by $2,500 and the worst one was when they said, first it was gonna help the deficit, remember? And they said, well, maybe I help, it will be deficit neutral. Then it was only cost $300 billion and now, they're up to -- I don't know, maybe a trillion dollars or so. So, they perpetrated all these lies as big hopes and the costs keep going up and that's where I have the problem.

PERINO: Kimberly, is it -- do you think it's possible that the president didn't know about this? And doesn't know who Gruber is? He doesn't remember him, I'm not sure what's worse is that, he doesn't remember and he had him there to help him, and he was sitting there side by side working on ObamaCare or, that he did know and that he sort of tried to fudge it yesterday?

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Well, either way is bad, that this is again the president trying to distance himself from Gruber now, but the fact remains that he was in the oval office with him. I believe that the president knows exactly who he is and now he's just trying to put some distance because it's bad for him. And he said that he's a minor consultant -- I mean, please, I want to be a minor consultant for ObamaCare. Because $400,000 and in fact.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: No, no, right, and $2 million in other additional contract with them. So, this is somebody who was regularly getting paid out by the taxpayer's money, but President Obama wants to call him a minor consultant.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: About that's a part of kind of, ruffle your feathers today, if I could talk about that. But even, Gruber basically was working with President Obama to deceive taxpayers on legislation from which he would handsomely profit later on.

BOB BECKEL, CO-HOST: Well, first of all, let me just say.

PERINO: Using our money.

BECKEL: Our money was used from the year 2000 to 2008, I think, or 2010 or whatever. So, it wasn't just under Obama, but neither at that side I choose to believe the president of the United States. I don't believe, I'm going to side with Greg on this, this is one of those liberal professors from some think tank somewhere, that shoots his mouth off and doesn't know what he's talking about and I don't -- I just don't believe for a second that Obama is going to go out there and say, I don't know this guy and he really does. I just -- and the other thing Obama said, and this is important, this Cadillac tax was debated over and over again, Republicans kept raising it over and over again and nobody listened.

PERINO: However, no, I disagree with that, because if you read today in the Wall Street Journal, Tevi Troy, he was a former colleague of mine, he was the House care experts explains, what Gruber is saying on that Cadillac tax is that, the lie was to tell the American people it was only going to hit the rich, when they knew all along, that the middle class would end up getting that tax hike as well.

BECKEL: Yeah, but it -- that was surveillance. (ph) We heard that over, I heard that, he's probably gonna said no, from him.

PERINO: We were saying that and we were told we were crazy. That is the lie.

BECKEL: But doesn't the reason she's crazy about.

BOLLING: But it seems, he's the president for saying, ah, kind of rings the bell, no really sure when we pay them. Anywhere between $400,000 or $6 million. By the way, there's a new sound that they just uncovered on President Obama in 2006 saying, he knows Gruber.

BECKEL: At first.

PERINO: He knows the video with them.

BOLLING: He's going to be -- he said he was gonna pull ideas from Gruber. Were gonna hear that later.

BECKEL: Wait a second. I want to hear the expert, the professors' say about this, Greg.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Well, for one thing, President Obama was right, there was debate on this. However, the debate was rig, it was a fixing card games, because the players and the House were all in on it. Whenever there was a debate about ObamaCare, there are people legitimately asking questions about whether or not this is real, whether they were lying, and they were always told no, mark by the media. So, yes, it was a debate, but the debate was completely rig. However, I'm thinking that you feel really bad for Gruber because, he might needs some serious therapy when you think about the fact that, he's met all of these people. Everybody he's met him, 20 times and nobody remembers him, that's got to be hell on your self esteem that nobody knows who you are. You know who he is? It's like Beetlejuice, you know, you can't say his name, if you say his name three times, you get chaos, actually it's more like -- remember the Bloody Mary urban legend, if you say Gruber three times in front of a mirror, you lose your health care.

PERINO: I thought of that today, it's like the Spartans, which basically -- if you disgraced yourself in battle.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

PERINO: When you came back, nobody would talk to you, they would pretend that they didn't know you, they would look around you and tell you -- basically you left, this side.

GUTFELD: Would you? The bigger -- here's the bigger point, President Obama is the first surfer president we've ever had. He rides every single crisis to shore and he's standing up when he gets there, that surf board is the media, each week there's a new wave and he makes it through, and the point is, the Republicans have to figure out like, how do you break this constant pattern? You have to concentrate on the board and not on the president. You have to go after the media that is allowed all of these scandals to happen, allows President Obama to keep cruising on to the beach every week into some new scandal.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: Allow me?

BECKEL: OK.

BOLLING: Can I follow up on Greg?

BECKEL: Please, sure.

BOLLING: That's the reason why you get frustrated what we keep talking about Jonathan Gruber, and we keep talking about President Obama claiming to not know who this Gruber guy is. Literally, we have another tape that we're gonna show later on the show of Obama saying, now I do I know Gruber. I know a lot -- we took some of Gruber's ideas and we implement it.

GUILFOYLE: How you think he can project the analysis.

BOLLING: So, he could say one thing today in 2014. But, in 2009, 2010, he was singing completely different tune.

PERINO: Does it, this is.

BECKEL: Maybe he didn't know he had relations with that woman.

(LAUGHTER)

PERINO: Exactly.

GUTFELD: Exactly done.

PERINO: The long one.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: It's basically like the word went out, nobody talk about this guy. Secretary Sebelius was at the private speaking about that Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Yes

PERINO: And she was asked by a reporter to comment on Gruber, and she said, "Oh yeah, I'm not gonna comment on that." She's not holding to anybody anymore. Here's what I wonder.

GUILFOYLE: Is it Mark?

PERINO: If they had just been honest with to the American people, that we would -- this is the kind of coverage we think we need for America, it might cost you more, you might have to change doctors, when they had the majority in congress, if they're going to ram the bill through anyway, why not just do it with honesty and get the results so they don't have to deal with it now, I mean, it would have passed, it would have passes anyway, they have the majority.

GUILFOYLE: Because, that kind of honesty and credibility is foreign to them, it's not how they operate. There's still in within that Chicago campaign mode, of how you get things done. It is better to pull something over on someone than trying do it and take a chance, that maybe, the American people, want to be generous, want to be magnanimous, and if you tell them the truth and explain it. If it's that good, you should be able to sell it them. Explain the concept.

BOLLING: There were Democrats that were not in favor of ObamaCare, remember that?

PERINO: Well, 39 Democrats voted against.

BOLLING: Right. So, they, maybe that's why they had to perpetrate this.

PERINO: It's not very many though.

BECKEL: You know, you can keep talking about this -- and what a stealth operation this is, these guys are geniuses to get away with all this. If I'm not mistaken, the Wall Street Journal ran editorial to editorial of the -- you can't call it a small favor or news allied. And talking about a Cadillac tax, the middle class, the vat tax (ph) all that stuff.

PERINO: And they were told they were wrong.

GUTFELD: You have this.

BECKEL: Almost so what?

PERIMO: Well -- now they prove -- but now they're saying that the Wall Street Journal was right all the time, but if you're right, we did lie and -- Gruber is basically confirming everything that to the Wall Street Journal has said.

BECKEL: But, if the Wall Street Journal said back then, that means there was debate, they will argue in the other side, right?

GUTFELD: You know, but.

BECKEL: It's a major allied.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: No, but the point is there was this anybody who argued this was dismissed.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: Immediately it was Obama's pan, non stick cooking spray, there's no way he could get around it.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: You can't consider the Wall Street Journal --

GUTFELD: No, no. The point is.

PERINO: And is not the Wall Street Journal Bob, it's conservatives who were against the bill and then were told that they were lying.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

PERINO: That the Cadillac tax would never apply to the middle class. And think, of course it had to, just look at the facts. They didn't want to talk about the facts, and now, and now their numbers aren't bearing out, and it's video's surface, its truth, its proof that they lied.

BECKEL: So you think with this additional race is the Wall Street Journal, the conservatives, and they said, "Oh, you're lying." The American people said, I think they're lying.

GUTFELD: They were called racist too.

BECKEL: Yeah Greg, racist.

BOLLING: And you don't care about people without insurance, you only care about poor people, concern of what had to.

GUILFOYLE: Bearable.

PERINO: Well, I tell what's really bad.

BOLLING: All of that based on this lie that Gruber is now telling us that he worked out with the administration.

PERINO: Not only that, but, Bob, and Eric.

BOLLING: Don't you see the problem with that.

PERINO: Think about this.

GUILFOYLE: It was granulated (ph)

PERINO: But they used his model to deceive the Congressional Budget Office so that it would not be scored in the way that Eric is talking about. He's saying that they deliberately gave bad information to the Congressional Budget Office, to get the number that they wanted, and that is bad.

BECKEL: Do you've been around and watching or not as long as I have, we've been spend a lot of experiences, did you know anybody who could pull something like this off?

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

PERINO: I know the Republicans couldn't pull it off because the media would never allow it. That's why you have to do things at low part (ph)

GUTFELD: There are two elements involve here, it's not just the Democratic Party, it is the media that is -- I've been the enablers, they are the surf board. President Obama is, without question, the most oblivious president we've ever had, he's not the president and he's out for the email (ph) man, and what we worry are his safe words. He doesn't have to care, he's already won re-election.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: And we've already got ObamaCare.

GUTFELD: I just heard of that.

PERINO: That's why.

GUTFELD: But you even said that it's the law.

GUILFOYLE: It's like his action.

GUTFELD: How many times Bob, here, did you say, "Too late, it's the law."

BECKEL: It is the law.

GUTFELD: Yeah, so you don't care? He doesn't care.

BOLLING: But the utter arrogance.

GUILFOYLE: No, he doesn't care, he's like that.

BECKEL: I think it could be changed.

BOLLING: The arrogance -- forget the law, we hear, we get that. But the utter arrogance of saying, I don't remember him or he didn't have anything to do with this. And then Pelosi say, "I don't know who he is." And it's all over her Web site, she talks about John Kerry, President Obama, whose next, Bob? And it is insane, it's -- toe the White House.

BECKEL: Do you think there's a chance now, that every news organization, I'm not gonna ask people if, who were those rooms supposedly with Gruber, that he was there, and Obama's gonna be caught dead in a lie like that?

BOLING: I don't know. But you know what?

GUILFOYLE: I bet you there to selfie.

BOLLING: Don't say you don't know.

PERINO: And the selfie that.

BOLLING: Don't you say you don't recall the guy and Gruber.

BECKEL: And you really believe that you could get away with that?

PERINO: I saw the picture.

BOLLING: Oh yeah.

BECEKEL: Think they couldn't get away with get out -- you know in the road blocks, but I --

GUTFELD: But look at -- I mean, think about the IRS, think about Benghazi, think about the DOJ, think about fast and furious, there's a lot of things that this administration has gotten away with it, and why? Because, I go back to the broken record, the enablers and the media, who fabricated their responsibility and service to their master.

PERINO: Alright, we're going to leave it there. Next, the grand jury decision on the Michael Brown case looms in Ferguson. And police across the country are bracing for chaos, protesters have already taken to the streets in St. Louis. Kimberly has the latest coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: The embattled city of Ferguson is on edge again, as a grand jury is expected to decide any moment whether police officer Darren Wilson will be indicted in the shooting death of Michael Brown. Protesters in St. Louis already on the street, have stage in dying, pretending to be shot. Cities nationwide are also bracing for demonstration. One person following this case very closely, President Obama, he met with Mitt Romney (ph) just like Al Sharpton in the day after the mid terms and told them to stay on course. I'm sure what that exactly, mean, say, this is we're waiting for the grand jury announcement to be made, we've kind of -- and we're all on alert, because, it's expected that there could be some serious repercussions depending on what their verdict is and what bill they issue. In fact, that they decide to charge the officer in this case. So, President Obama saying that to Al Sharpton, what do you make of that?

PERINO: Well.

GUILFOYLE: Stay on course.

PERINO: Here's the thing, I don't think anyone should egg (ph) on a conflict here. Ferguson has been through a lot, there was -- I can't remember her name, just state senator from Missouri that was on Bill O'Reilly's show last week. And I hope that they follow her example of looking for justice and being smart and gracious and waiting for the grand jury to make its decision. The grand jury has been deliberating for quite a long time and I think you have to trust in the due diligence of everybody involved, the jurors as well as the prosecutors that are presenting evidence. And if the evidence is not there to have an indicted or conviction, then I hope that people would accept that.

GUILFOYLE: And respect the process, yeah. Bolling, (ph) indelible.

BOLLING: Well, my concern is that there's been so much animosity ginned up already, that no matter what it is, whether is not -- the grand jury decides not to indict, that might be considered reason to rise and cause trouble, or if there is an indictment and the officer is found not guilty.

PERINO: Right.

BOLLING: Would that make them even more upset to people who are prone to protest and loot and get -- do some bad things. I don't know how you get out of it other than someone like Al Sharpton stepping up and saying, you know, call for common peace rather than doing what he was doing. And President Obama saying stays the course -- the course wasn't so good. The course was pretty darn bad over there, so a lot of -- you know, business owners with their windows broken, people got hurt. There's a lot of people doing a lot of bolts are flying, if that's the course they want to stay, let's hope that's not what he meant. Hopefully, he meant the course that we've had over the last, maybe month or so.

GUILFOYLE: Well, first and certainly will put Gruber off the front page. Greg.

GUTFELD: There should be legitimate protests if you feel that there was injustice. If you feel that -- police officer should go to jail or something. But, legitimate protests will always be targeted for opportunistic mayhem. This is the history of how communist cells worked social in cells worked in the United States. They, they, they look and they seek out a vulnerability, whether is unrest. They infiltrate and they create and foment violence, it's been done many times. The race is the media's bug lamp. That's another problem. When they rush to cover a single event, a single event in a small town of 370 million people, they run, they add so much weight, and that kind of weight that they put on this one crime or this one incident, demands spectacle. It's almost as if something doesn't happen, we are disappointed that something hasn't happen. We almost -- it's a self fulfilling chaos, by sending everybody there, which is why I think, we should hold back. The media should hold back, and you just say, you know what? You know a bad to that they employed this kind of emphasis on any other story, on any other crime, they don't, it's only racially hinged events that they do this.

GUILFOYLE: Like Trayvon Martin.

GUTFELD: Yeah, and it leads to certain polls in of chaos and disorder. It doesn't end well. It's a bug lamp that ends up hurting everybody.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, I think you're right. And you know, Bob, do you always talk about, you know, Martin Luther King Jr. and you know, your family, and your respect for him. I have to tell you, I don't think he would be in support at all of this kind of, you know, chaos and race bating and what's been going on, it's very disrespective to the -- disrespectful to the judicial process, to the will of juries. I like to see someone step forward on behalf of, let's have a peaceful process and sure, protest if you want, but do it in a right way so, other lives aren't injured or put in danger.

BECKEL: The problem of course is you don't have a Martin Luther King anymore. And you've got this re-group of people who do -- do profit off of this, a lot of stuff. But, you know what Martin Luther King, this is sort of like what the kings has to deal with the black panthers. When Martin Luther King was trying to organize to do non violence protest and the panther started it up. And this, and this snake, the student non violent coordinate could be which is not exactly non violent. And King was constantly in this pressure fight back and forth, but he was big enough and strong enough and respected enough that he got away with it. Now, I don't see that happening. The other thing is, look, there are a lot of people in Ferguson who believe, no matter what this decision is they have firmly set in their minds that this kid was killed by a police officer. I happen to believe that myself.

GUILFOYLE: Well, he was.

BOLLING: That he was -- he was killed by a police officer.

GUILFOYLE: He was killed by a police officer.

BECKEL: But that kid murder by a police officer, should I say. There, there -- you're not gonna change their mind by --

GUTFELD: By facts?

BECKEL: No they, it wouldn't -- no, Greg, they won't. There's -- it won't happen that way.

BOOLING: And that was my point.

GUILFOYLE: Because, you believe in your mind no matter what that it was an unlawful killing?

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: No, I said, I look at this way. I look at -- you know that there are 99 percent of the police departments in this country, police officers in this country, are good, clean solid citizens. There is a percentage, which is in New York City, we saw in Los Angeles, where the police rioted. And the only -- look for video tape, you wouldn't had --

GUILFOYLE: About the police rioted?

EBCKEL: Don't with it. Do you remember what happened? What, what his name in Los Angeles?

GUILFOYLE: Rodney King.

BECKEL: He's Rodney King, like, if it hadn't been for the fact they had a videotape of King being beaten up.

GUILFOYLE: But Bob, I guess, I don't know how many times in history you want to then, you know, foist these sins as you see them on every officer this outbreak survey right now.

BECKEL: I guess, I said 99 percent.

GUILFOYLE: I know, but why -- just in case on individual basis.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: But you also said no matter what happens, whether what the outcome is, unless there's an indictment and a conviction, there's gonna be problem, there's gonna be protest riots.

BECKEL: Because I just believe the black community that they has said enough of this and they believe it firmly, and no --

BOLLING: But that would be wrong.

GUILFOYLE: But it doesn't make it right.

BECKEL: Whatever facts come out, they're not going to believe the facts because the facts have been stacked against them for years and years.

BOLLING: I don't care.

GUTFELD: But I don't think. I think you might be confusing certain groups, I don't believe there are black groups involved in any of this disorder at all. I think its other groups, ideological groups, leftist groups that are there, that have showed up that they are there. Who see an opportunity to.

PERINO: For the pot.

GUTFELD: To stir the pot. Also, we have to be fair, that all riots are equal. I mean, we can get upset about what happens after this, but I don't -- did we do anything after the World Series? When there's stuff going on, I mean, there -- maybe people let off steam and that's where it ends, we hope.

GUILFOYLE: And then.

GUTFELD: And it happens elsewhere.

GUILFOYLE: And at this hour, as we've been speaking, National Guard has been called up to Ferguson, so we hope that this goes peacefully and no lives are lost. And before we go, a program mean no tomorrow night, a special guest is joining us here on to The Five, the man who killed Osama bin Laden, Navy SEAL, Rob O'Neill is gonna be right here with us, at this table and you definitely don't want to miss that.

Coming up, the man who plans to grant amnesty to millions of illegal makes a case against illegal immigration. You've heard that right, President Obama, he's on tape, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: Somebody did hear about that guy who said he had anxiety about the wave of illegal immigrants flooding our southern border and the same guy, even admitted he felt resentment when he sees the Mexican flag waving at Pro immigration rallies, well, that's guy is not just some Republican. In fact, he's not even Republican -- you know what? This guy is not just some Democrat, he's a big democrat, a really, really big Democrat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: No denying that many blacks share the same anxieties as many whites about the wave of illegal immigration flooding our Southern border. The number of immigrants added to our labor force every year is of a magnitude not seen in this country for over a century. If this huge influx of mostly low-skill workers provides some benefits to the economy as a whole, it also threatens to depress further the wages of blue-collar Americans and put strains on an already overburdened safety net.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BOLLING: And here's that resentment comment, when I see Mexican flags waved at pro-immigration demonstration, I sometimes feel a flush of patriotic resentment mention canning flags waved at pro-immigration demonstrations I sometimes feel a flush of patriotic resentment when I'm forced to use a translator to communicate with the guy fixing my car, I feel a certain frustration. President Barack Obama in his own words, sort of 2006 because he involved on immigration, I guess. Bob, I got to go to you on this one, wow.

BECKEL: Really?

BOLLING: Wow. A little different tune than a President Obama who's says, "Let's sign in 4 1/2 million, 5 million people.

BECKEL: I -- this is just true. I mean, when you have an influx of illegal- - people crossing the border, undocumented workers, it does suppress the --

BOLLING: Just.

BECKEL: Just hang on a second, can I finish this? Can I finish?

BOLLING: Please.

BECKEL: Thank you. Just over a century ago when the Irish came here and flooded in here, the market, do they drove blue-collar wages down and they put a lot of pressure on the goals back then.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: OK. I remember you say, I remember you say, it's the Americans don't want those jobs anyway.

BECKEL: No, no, no. What I'm saying is, in the long run, they would be beneficial citizens of this country.

BOLLING: K.G., were you surprised when he said, "I have to use a translator for the guy fixing my car." That's a little derogatory, is it not?

GUILFOYLE: Yes, obviously. It's very disrespectful. It's an awful statement to make in front of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) like that. I mean, honestly.

BOLLING: Really?

GUILFOYLE: What do you want me to tell you? It's horrible. But you know, this just goes to show you, when you have this kind of manufacture of a candidate and you shape them and you put words in, and you put it out in front, this is what you're going to get. That's going to be on tape, and the truth is going to come out. Now what are you going to do?

BECKEL: If your computer breaks down, you've got to talk to a call center in India. I can't understand what those people talk about.

BOLLING: Greg, he's evolved on a bunch of things.

GUILFOYLE: You're trying to help him, right?

BOLLING: Yes. He's evolved on...

GUTFELD: You know what's interesting? Here's the biggest problem with immigration. There are two people I trust when I go for -- when I'm looking for answers: Mickey Couse (ph) and Jason Riley. Mickey Couse (ph) says high immigration will hurt employment. Jason Riley says high immigration coincides with low unemployment, because it will increase demands for goods and services.

So you're -- it's a weird place to be. I think that half of it is true that, like over time, it helps.

BOLLING: Right.

GUTFELD: But in the initial influx, if it's cheap labor, what it does is if you're against economic inequality, importing the world's poor means you're supplying a whole better -- you know, amount of poor people on one end of that equation, which just makes the equality even worse. So that's why, like, an amnesty seems so stupid. And why orderly immigration makes so much sense. Why we are for orderly immigration. We want people in line to come in. Blanket amnesty immediately, I think, might be a shock to the system. And politically turning immigration into a voting block device hasn't helped.

BOLLING: And D.P., you talk about the tone of those comments?

PERINO: Well, here's the danger of not knowing your boss's previous statements, right? I mean, if you're later on in the year, so this is the sixth year of the presidency and you might not know what your boss said before when he was a state senator or a governor or in his book, so you need to read that stuff.

He might have evolved on the issue, you're allowed to do that. But here they have a monumental task in front of them on communications, if they expect to get this done. Something this big, that is captured -- everybody's paying attention to it, means that all hands must be on deck at the White House and throughout the administration. No mistakes, no time for anybody else. You better figure out a way to get this done.

The problem is for them, voters are burning up the phone lines on Capitol Hill to both Republican and Democratic offices saying you better do something to make sure that this doesn't happen, so they have a -- they have a really big task in front of them. And they have so many problems, including our own national security, that they've got to be focused on, as well.

BECKEL: One of the things -- there's not going to be immigration legislation in Obama's last two years. It's not going to happen.

And the other -- the Senate passed an immigration bill. Let' not forget that. The Democratic Senate. And the House refused to deal with it. Now, and that's Republican. What makes you think that more Republicans are going to deal with an immigration bill?

PERINO: Well, they might not, but...

BOLLING: Do you want to debate immigration? Or do you want to debate...

PERINO: I have a tactical question. So when President Bush in 2005 tried to get Social Security passed, Social Security reform, to provide private accounts, and six months into it, he realized it was not going to happen. Even his own party was starting to say, "Whoa, look, we are not for this." What he did is to say, "You know what? I gave it my best shot. It didn't happen. It's the will of the people," and we moved on to another subject.

I don't think that's necessarily the best thing for the country. I think that privatization of part of the Social Security program would have been smart. But tactically, as a president, it was a better thing to do as a leader. I think President Obama is making a huge tactical mistake that will hurt his presidency on every other issue.

BECKEL: But the difference is that George Bush could not have, by executive order, changed the Social Security system. Right? Obama, whether you -- the courts will decide this. He is going to do it by executive order.

PERINO: But why put all...

BECKEL: And more power to him.

PERINO: Then why put all those people in jeopardy to and say, "OK, we're going to give you amnesty for three years until the Supreme Court tells us you're not allowed"? I don't think that's better.

BECKEL: it's either that or worry about somebody knocking on your door and asking for a green.

BOLLING: Do you think he believes that the best thing for the country is to give -- provide amnesty to 4 or 5 million people?

BECKEL: I would. Certainly, I would.

BOLLING: Do you think he believes that?

BECKEL: I don't know what he believes, but I believe...

BOLLING: Those comments that he just spoke, in his "Audacity of Hope," isn't that the name of the book? Those don't conflict what he's saying now?

BECKEL: No, but I mean, I agree with Dana.

BOLLING: How about yes, they do?

BECKEL: No. No. What is true, I think what he was saying -- this is my interpretation of it -- is what I believe, too, an influx of people quickly into the workforce, one out of four people hanging wall board in this country are undocumented workers. Now, that suppresses the value of a wall, but it's a tough job. But nonetheless, over time, they will produce; and they will pay taxes, and they'll be fine.

GUTFELD: You know what's amazing, though?

BECKEL: And you'll be able to...

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: You'll have Obama do your lawn. That's the thing.

BOLLING: President Obama evolved in eight years. You evolved in, like, eight minutes.

PERINO: Eight minutes. Bob Beckel, ladies and gentlemen.

BECKEL: You're going to be able to get your lawn done by somebody who's got a green card.

GUTFELD: This is an interesting point, that there is a reversal going on in ideologies where you have conservatives who normally would be salivating over cheap labor coming out against this, and you have liberals who should be condemning it who are saying it's a great opportunity, even though it might hurt the poor.

BOLLING: All right. That's interesting.

PERINO: Sum up.

BOLLING: History was made last week when a spacecraft landed on a commit. But feminists didn't notice. They were only focused on what one of the scientists who worked on the mission was wearing. Greg's got that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: Last week some scientists landed a probe on a comet 300 million miles away. Big deal? Who cares? One of the scientists, Matt Taylor, wore a butt-ugly shirt featuring scantily-clad women. The attire drew ire. One astrophysicist tweeted, "You think a shirt like this makes women feel welcome? I don't."

A website called the apparel "casual misogyny" that stops women from entering science. It got much, much worse, so Taylor atoned on Friday. It's not pretty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT TAYLOR, SCIENTIST WHO WORKED ON PROBE LANDING ON COMET: A shirt I wore this week, I made a big mistake, and I offended many people. I'm very sorry about this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECKEL: Why do we keep filming that?

BECKEL: Oh, my God. I'd vomit, but this is a family show. So a man lands a probe on a comet, something no one else has ever done, and he's reduced to tears over a shirt. Thank you, Twitter, for turning the world into a bully chamber.

It used to be one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind. Now it's one angry tweet trumps an awesome feat. And so the absurdity of modern outrage has reached a brand-new apex. In one universe, a man achieves greatness, but in another petty one he's humiliated.

Was the shirt sexist? No. Tacky? Yes. Clearly, the man needs help picking out shirts. Surprise: Rocket scientists are dorks. They care more about the world than their wardrobe. Yet the shirt got more space than space. And bloggers got their scalp of contrition. A man wept, and progress took a back seat to petulance.

So why bother sending rockets at all? Seriously, do earthlings deserve the effort when they savage those who try? Maybe we don't deserve Matt Taylor. We do deserve Twitter, a world where trending is cooler than doing, and 140 characters replaces our own.

PERINO: Wow, sing it again. Sing it again.

GUTFELD: Is the most depressing story ever?

PERINO: Yes, it's depressing. It's infuriating. First of all, the woman -- the shirt he was wearing was made for him by his friend, who is a woman.

GUTFELD: I know.

PERINO: Who is a tattoo artist. And you're right. There's also the story about the woman who's complaining that man that -- her co-anchor wore the same suit every day of the year, and nobody complained. Women have got to get a grip. Got to get a grip. It's terrible.

GUTFELD: Eric, we wouldn't wear that shirt on "The Five" because someone in wardrobe would call us -- would call us immediately.

GUILFOYLE: Gwen. Gwen would be like, "What?"

GUTFELD: And we'd be -- we'd be there going, "What the hell are you doing?"

However, the guy put a tiny thing on a giant thing, millions of miles away.

BOLLING: Sixty thousand miles an hour, they landed it on a comet. Are you kidding? And then he's crying. He's crying that he was so sorry, because he made a mistake?

GUILFOYLE: That's how mean people are.

BOLLING: You didn't make a mistake. You just achieved an amazing feat. Be proud of that.

Your best line: "Rocket scientists are dorks." That was one of your best monologues ever.

GUTFELD: Thank you.

BOLLING: Really. Let's not appease those feminists.

GUTFELD: Yes, it's sad. Bob...

BECKEL: Yes.

GUTFELD: ... did he deserve all of this? Should he have apologized?

BECKEL: The best part of that is the last, which is he should not have gotten on there and apologized and wept and all that.

BECKEL: I certainly wouldn't. You're right. If a bunch of broads started to hit me on what I'm wearing, I wouldn't do -- I wouldn't do that.

But the point is...

GUILFOYLE: This was going so well.

BECKEL: I did that on purpose, OK? I did it on purpose, and we can both beat that thing. Don't even think about beeping that.

OK. Now, it's amazing to me, Greg, to listen to you talk about this thing. It was a very good monologue, but if you're -- if this story had not had that story, you would have been screaming about wasting money landing on a rock.

GUTFELD: I love space travel.

BECKEL: You would have.

BOLLING: You know what? It wasn't even ours. I don't think we spent any money.

GUTFELD: Yes. It was the European Space Agency.

PERINO: They spent it on their military.

GUILFOYLE: It's all about, you know, other people's...

GUTFELD: Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: It's all about other people's money for space now. Yes.

GUTFELD: What this man needs is he needs kind of...

GUILFOYLE: I know what he needs.

GUTFELD: He needs a makeover.

GUILFOYLE: I can tell you what he needs.

BECKEL: I bet you he thinks so, too.

GUILFOYLE: He needs a real woman in his life, not on his shirt, I'll tell you that much. Poor guy.

GUTFELD: Yes. But I don't know. This is all. I guess my point is, people -- it's easy now in this world of Twitter. That's achievement. It's going after somebody as opposed to this poor guy that actually did something.

GUILFOYLE: Well, he -- I mean, the poor guy. I don't think he's faking it. He's very upset. He's been bullied. He feels shamed now.

And by the way, he was trying to do something nice. He's wearing a shirt that his friend made him.

GUTFELD: It's an ugly shirt.

GUILFOYLE: That's like everyone yelling at me if I wear a shirt that my grandmother made me or something. Yes, it's not the best shirt ever, but it makes sense when you hear the context which Dana provided.

BECKEL: Yes, but...

GUILFOYLE: That his friend was a tattoo artist, and those are the images of women many times that go on someone's body.

BECKEL: But there are women who would be upset by that.

GUILFOYLE: I understand.

BECKEL: There are women who think that's a bad thing to do. I can't fault that.

GUILFOYLE: I understand. I do.

PERINO: Were they upset when Melissa Harris Perry wore tampon earrings on her news show?

BECKEL: Who?

GUTFELD: That's a good point. Well, one's -- never mind.

GUILFOYLE: I don't want to hear that out of anybody's mouth again.

BOLLING: Did you beep that? Tell me you beeped that.

GUTFELD: How does that happen? Anyway, watch your mouth.

OK.

GUILFOYLE: ... segment.

GUTFELD: Ahead, President Obama claims he didn't know ObamaCare architect Jonathan Gruber. But we now have tape proving otherwise, from the president himself. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: Welcome back to "The Five." Bob just gave me this block to do.

As we mentioned earlier, the president yesterday dismissed ObamaCare architect Jonathan Gruber as just some advisor, who was never on his staff who he doesn't agree with. Interestingly, we just found tape of him in 2006 when he was senator talking about Gruber in a very different light. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've already drawn some of the brightest minds from academia and policy circles. Many of them I've stolen ideas from liberally. People ranging from Robert Gordon to Austan Goolsbee, to Jon Gruber, my dear friend Jim Wallace here, who can talk, I think -- who can inform what are sometimes dry policy debates with a prophetic voice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Kimberly, the former prosecutor, if you were putting together this case, what one piece of evidence did you just notice?

GUILFOYLE: My aha moment was when President Obama didn't look down and read the name of Gruber. He looked right into the crowd and said it, because he knows him.

PERINO: See, this is why you want Kimberly as your lawyer, Bob.

BECKEL: Now I tell you, the guy was giving a speech at Brookings. Everybody -- the staff gave him a bunch of names of people who were going to be sitting around.

GUILFOYLE: And he didn't read it off the page. He looked right up and said it.

BECKEL: He was looking down at that page versus the whole time. I mean, you going to jump on the guy because he says the guy's name?

PERINO: Bob, are you on the Democratic band wagon that they don't know who Gruber is?

BECKEL: I don't know -- I don't know who Gruber is. I don't care who he is. I think he's a jerk, if you want to know the truth, to say that kind of stuff. I mean, if it's true, if you were covering that thing up, then keep your mouth shut.

PERINO: Do you know what's true?

GUILFOYLE: You're mad because he told the truth.

BECKEL: No, I mean, because all it does is give Republicans a bunch of ammunition to keep shooting.

PERINO: That's why he will be ostracized.

BOLLING: He's only a jerk to Democrats.

BECKEL: I know. He's a big hero to you.

BOLLING: And he say he's not a jerk, because he's recollecting what happened. And unfortunately...

BECKEL: A member of the liberal academia.

GUILFOYLE: But he's still bad, because he's part of that cover-up.

BOLLING: Honestly, I'll say it one more time. Look, if ObamaCare was working, no one would give a crap who Jonathan Gruber is. The Republicans wouldn't. No one would mind that Gruber made $5.9 million over the course of 10 or 15 years. No one would care if it was working.

But it's not. So therefore...

BECKEL: Well, you say it's not. I say it's working.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: The numbers don't bear that out. Not only that, Bob. As Dana pointed -- Dana pointed out in the A block, 37 percent, the lowest Gallup poll, which you quoted last week...

BECKEL: Sure.

BOLLING: ... oppose -- approve of Obama care.

BECKEL: It was for ObamaCare or for Obama?

BOLLING: ObamaCare.

BECKEL: ObamaCare. Thirty-seven percent?

PERINO: Yes.

BECKEL: Is that the lowest?

BOLLING: Lowest ever.

BECKEL: I didn't know that.

PERINO: Greg, do you think that next year, that Gruber will get teacher -- professor of the year?

GUTFELD: You got to wonder, how much of this denial is spreading even into his personal life. Does he comes home and his wife is like, "Who are you? I have no idea who you are."

PERINO: You know what I would think the ultimate insult? If his dog didn't even greet him at the door.

GUTFELD: It's like no, dude. You're just bad news.

He's got to be depressed. Everybody he knows, everybody that said how great he is, is now going, "I don't know who he is. I don't know who he is."

PERINO: He's not as smart as he thinks he is.

GUTFELD: That's true. And it's going to come out.

BECKEL: Why do you take him at his word? Why do you take him at his word? He's a liberal college professor. You always say those people are a bunch of commies, so why would you take what he says as true? I don't believe him for a second.

PERINO: Really? You don't think behind closed doors...?

BECKEL: Not for a second. Not for a second. I don't think he met with Obama 20 times. I don't think he...

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: I think they lived together in Vermont for five years.

BECKEL: Well, maybe they did, but that's a different situation. That's a domestic situation.

PERINO: He's dead to him.

OK, "One More Thing" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: It's time now for "One More Thing." I'm going to go first. I'm going to tell you about my weekend, because I got to go to the Mohegan Sun. And I went to the Dierks Bentley concert, the Riser concert. If you haven't downloaded that album, you should.

But I found walking around -- that's Dierks Bentley. What I found walking around was the perfect gift for Eric Bolling for the holidays. It brings together your two worlds, and I wrapped them in the special newspaper, because I didn't have any wrapping paper. But look.

BOLLING: Red Solo cup.

PERINO: Yes, you see. And a pair of them.

BOLLING: Love the red Solo cups.

PERINO: But with crystal bases.

GUILFOYLE: That's so nice.

PERINO: What do you think?

BOLLING: I can drink beer...

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: The inside story is that Dana's husband forgot to bring them, so he had to go out and buy them.

GUILFOYLE: No, he had to go home and get them.

BECKEL: He had to go all the way home?

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: Are you kidding me? I've never done that to my old lady.

PERINO: All right, Greg is next.

GUTFELD: All right. Time for a banned phrase. I can't believe I have not banned this already. LOL. Enough. Nobody ever actually laughs out loud. It never happens when they're writing that. They're doing it unconsciously. It's like breathing.

PERINO: I disagree.

GUTFELD: It's not -- when you write "LOL" to me, you're not laughing out loud.

PERINO: I kind of go, "heh."

GUTFELD: Yes, it's like you're choking on something. No.

If you want to get rid of "LOL," here's what you do. Put it at the end of a really depressing e-mails, like if you have to write something depressing, like, "I have four months to live. LOL." That's going to get -- if everybody starts doing that, put "LOL" at the end of depressing sentences, it will kill it.

PERINO: OK. I'm going to try that. I don't write depressing notes.

GUTFELD: LOL.

PERINO: Eric Bolling, you're next.

BOLLING: OK. So first, can we hat tip American Commitment who unearthed that last video we just showed in the last block, Obama talking about Jonathan Gruber? That's housekeeping.

Tonight check this out on "Hannity." Hannity sent David Webb to MIT to track down Jonathan Gruber himself. Here's a little piece.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID WEBB, FOX NEWS: Professor, do you really think the American voters are stupid? What about the ObamaCare, is that just a hoax on the American people?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: And you got to tune in tonight at 10 p.m., to find out the answer, how Gruber answers those two questions. Good job.

GUTFELD: Probably stupid.

PERINO: I like how David Webb -- I like how David Webb doesn't even bother with the umbrella. Right? That's a real man.

GUILFOYLE: That is a real man.

BECKEL: And now I understand why I'm not invited on "Hannity" tonight.

GUILFOYLE: You're going to have to do an ambush.

BECKEL: I'm going to get -- I'm going to get a little bit more sadder news, and that that is in the last year, 2.5 million children in this, the richest country in the world, were homeless. And if their biological parents can't or won't provide them with housing, with food, with shelter, with clothing, then all of us who are at this table, who are making a good living and all of you out there that make a decent living, we ought to pay for it. That's my story.

PERINO: All right. We will not add "LOL" at the end of that, which is what...

GUTFELD: But see, that's the point.

GUILFOYLE: But that is the point. But also you are...

GUTFELD: There's a lot of homeless people, LOL.

GUILFOYLE: We've got to take care of everybody...

PERINO: This doesn't have anything to do with LOL.

GUILFOYLE: ... including children that are starving who don't have education, don't have meals on the table or winter coats.

BECKEL: Correct.

GUILFOYLE: Who gives back to children throughout the world? Bono. My favorite band. And we want to wish him well, Dana, because you and Peter know about this, it is very dangerous in Central Park. And Bono was injured on his bicycle. In fact he's going to probably have to have surgery. They were booked on stuff all week.

GUTFELD: Is that on a bike?

BOLLING: yes.

GUILFOYLE: And they had to cancel. I'm telling you...

PERINO: Did he get his by another bicycle?

GUILFOYLE: ... it's so dangerous in Central Park.

PERINO: So how did he get hurt?

GUILFOYLE: I don't know. I think we ought to do an investigation.

BECKEL: That's why you shouldn't bike. You shouldn't bike. It's a bad idea.

BECKEL: He was biking himself. Yes.

GUILFOYLE: He was biking. But I don't know...

BECKEL: You see all those euro-trash outfits they wear on those bikes?

BOLLING: I don't like those guys.

BECKEL: Those biker things?

PERINO: We will solve this mystery, and we will tell you about it tomorrow night.

Reminder: also for tomorrow night, the man who killed Usama bin Laden right here at this table.

GUTFELD: That's me.

PERINO: So set your DVRs for that. "Special Report" up next.

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