Interviews

Rupert Murdoch on impact of Scotland vote on British PM

What are implications for PM Cameron?

 

This is a rush transcript from "Your World," September 18, 2014. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST: Meanwhile, after the historic vote, the question about David Cameron, whether he could be history as well, something I brought it up with 21st Century Fox Chairman -- the name rings a bell -- Rupert Murdoch on Fox Business Network earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAVUTO: What happens to him? What does this mean for him?

RUPERT MURDOCH, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, NEWS CORPORATION: No, I think that if -- if they lose it, if yes wins it, he will probably have to go.

I think you could -- there's about a 70 percent likelihood. And I say after that talking to a lot of his M.P.s And -- but if it's close, and they stand by these devolution promises, which I think they have to, he will have a -- half his party, at least, very, very unhappy, and the same exactly in the Labor Party.

It has been totally mishandled by -- by everybody on the no side. It's very interesting. I think there's meaning in this. I think it goes beyond Scotland. I think there's a great sort of anti-establishment groundswell, which is seen in this vote Scotland. You're seeing it down here in Brian in the anti-European party, which -- one single issue, which is to get out of Europe.

CAVUTO: Right.

MURDOCH: And I think you're seeing it in France with the polling for Le Pen. I don't think she would win, but -- but, really, you can take United States and go across Middle America, what do they think of Washington and Wall Street, for that matter?

There's a -- people are really looking for change.

CAVUTO: I have heard from a lot of market analysts over the last couple of hours, Rupert, who say, well, regardless, at least in the interim, the United States benefits, because it's a haven. Its dollar is - - and it was a until a little while ago. The British pound I think is now trading a little better off the dollar, but that we benefit, not that we're on fire and doing a great job, but that we're sort of the tallest midget in the global room, but that that will continue happening because the world might be volatile, but the U.S. remains a haven, more so regardless of what happens today.

Do you buy that?

MURDOCH: Yes.

I think it's still the best place to invest. On the other hand, I'm sitting in a building in London, looking out, and all I can see is building cranes. It's a boom city. Now, that does not extend across the country, just as New York looks like a boom city or San Francisco does, but go to anyone -- anywhere in between, and things aren't that good.

Look at what has happened to the average income of Americans, other than the top 1 percent, or less than 1 percent, which are, you know, exceedingly high.

CAVUTO: Right.

MURDOCH: But what about the average American? There were a lot of figures in The Wall Street Journal two days showing, I think, in the month of August, the average income went up a little fraction for the first time, but still overall compares pretty badly with 10 years ago.

Things are not easy for the average family in America.

CAVUTO: But that chasm between the rich and poor apparently is worldwide. We were talking to one of the nationalists in Scotland who was saying, you know, it's a global French Revolution going on here. That chasm between those who are enjoying the good life and those who aren't is widening, and that it was almost like -- I don't know what the Scottish version of throw all the bums out, but that was reverberating.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: What do you make of it?

MURDOCH: Yes, I look the problem has been the Fed and the same here, the Interbank, trying to create jobs by printing money.

The fact is, there are so many petty regulations at all level of government. It's in the states -- at fed, state, county. You try and just open a restaurant and employ 40 people in Nassau County or somewhere like that. It would take you 18 months and you end up, oh, saying, to hell with it, and you pay a high tax.

And so all this free money has not created jobs. So it has ended up on Wall Street, and you have had a great inflation of asset values, which means that the rich have got a lot richer, whereas wages have not gone up, or not appreciably. So, there's a lot to do.

CAVUTO: But in the middle of this, Rupert, you think about it, you have the terror fear, you have the ISIS fears. Many have argued that David Cameron and his raising the terror threat alert, cynically, was meant to sort of send a message to the Scots, you really want to be without us having your back? What do you think?

(LAUGHTER)

MURDOCH: No. They can look of after that as well as Britain can. The big story today, of course, on that level is from Australia, where 800 police went right through the sort of Muslim areas of Sydney and Melbourne and last through the night, arresting quite a number of people, and alleging that they have uncovered plots for sort of public killings and beheadings in the streets of Sydney, very, very sensational news.

CAVUTO: You know...

(CROSSTALK)

MURDOCH: The intelligence services there are absolutely first-class.

CAVUTO: Which, by the way, could explain why they raised their own terror threat alert.

Now, Nigel Farage was here not too long ago, Rupert, saying there's something maybe more basic or systemic going on here and across the globe, and that is what binds us religiously, that we have become a secularized world, maybe in this country, as he had mentioned about Britain losing its sort of Judeo-Christian values, and that this feeds this -- this mentality. What do you think?

MURDOCH: I have to think hard about that, but I think there's a lot - - there's a lot to it, absolutely.

I think that's something that happened in Australia some time ago. And the then-prime minister came out and made it very clear. You know, if you migrate to this country, if you live here and want citizenship, you accept our values and our laws.

And in this country, there have been some recent terrible, terrible scandals, where they haven't done anything. They have been hidden by local councils and so on, in order, because they thought they'd look racist if they acted against Asian immigrants, which I think is another form of racism, just thinking that way.

CAVUTO: Well, that's what Farage was saying.

I want to briefly, while I have you, to get your sense of the markets right now. I told you they're -- they're not really too concerned right now that Scotland breaks away. If they are, they have a funny way of showing it. But they have had an enormous run-up, our own markets included.

MURDOCH: Well, I think when...

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Do you think our markets, particularly in the United States, are looking heady?

MURDOCH: No, I don't think so. I don't think it's going to affect the United States markets.

I think the -- you can say they're too high, but that's another matter. It has nothing to do with this. When it looked like the yes vote was going to get there, the pound in fact did fall from $1.70 to about $1.61.

CAVUTO: That's right.

MURDOCH: I don't know what is today. Or -- I didn't even look yesterday. But, if that gets up, it could fall again another 5 cents or something.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: But as far as the general market, the general markets in the United States, separate from this development, do you think, as other bears have been saying of late, that they're worried, that they think this is looking toppy?

MURDOCH: Well, I'm a bit bearish, I guess, but I certainly think that, yes.

CAVUTO: Very quickly, on the U.S. political front...

MURDOCH: That's why I pulled out of the Time Warner deal. That was just -- you pay the price if it's necessary. It just would have meant my - - it wouldn't have affected our ratings, the extra borrowing.

But I just felt, with all the uncertainties in the world, I didn't want to be carrying that degree of debt.

CAVUTO: Well, that's interesting. But would it have affected your overture in the first place?

MURDOCH: No. I thought it could be received rather differently. But there we are.

CAVUTO: Would you ever revisit it?

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: I'm sorry.

Would you ever revisit Time Warner?

MURDOCH: No, certainly not in a hostile way.

CAVUTO: So, you have had no more discussions with them since?

MURDOCH: Not at all, no.

CAVUTO: All right.

And real quickly, on the American political scene -- we have been talking about the Scottish-British scene -- any candidates catch your attention or intrigue you?

(LAUGHTER)

MURDOCH: I'm intrigued with the whole process that is happening and who is going to run against Hillary on the Democratic side.

If they do, they will run way to the left. Will they pull her a bit more to the left from a rather centrist position? What could happen there? How would that affect the result? And then there's a lot of people in the Republican field.

CAVUTO: Rand Paul?

MURDOCH: Yes, and Paul Ryan, though he hasn't declared yet. Jeb Bush may and would be a very good president. And Marco Rubio is making some very interesting speeches. I think that, you know, John Kasich in -- John Kasich in Ohio is going to emerge as a candidate.

CAVUTO: Chris Christie?

MURDOCH: And Chris Christie. There's other governors. You have Perry.

CAVUTO: But you mentioned Christie at the end. Am I to read anything into it that?

MURDOCH: No, no, not at all, not at all.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: All right.

MURDOCH: No. I think he will -- he will be a very visible and strong candidate when the primaries come.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST: When rising U.K. opposition leader Nigel Farage tied the growing ISIS threat to multiculturalism, it sparked a huge debate.

Well, today, no less than my boss weighing in, Rupert Murdoch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: Now, Nigel Farage was here not too long ago, Rupert, saying there's something maybe more basic or systemic going on here and across the globe, and that is what binds us religiously, that we have become a secularized world, maybe in this country, as he had mentioned about Britain losing its sort of Judeo-Christian values, and that this feeds this -- this mentality. What do you think?

RUPERT MURDOCH, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, NEWS CORPORATION: I have to think hard about that, but I think there's a lot -- there's a lot to it, absolutely.

I think that's something that happened in Australia some time ago. And the then-prime minister came out and made it very clear. You know, if you migrate to this country, if you live here and want citizenship, you accept our values and our laws.

And in this country, there have been some recent terrible, terrible scandals, where they haven't done anything. They have been hidden by local councils and so on, in order, because they thought they'd look racist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAVUTO: Back with us now, Nigel Farage.

What -- Nigel Farage, always a pleasure.

But to that point that -- that we are now overly politically correct, and had they not caught these guys in Australia, people would have lost their lives for it, and violently so, what do you think?

NIGEL FARAGE, U.K. INDEPENDENCE PARTY LEADER: Yes.

You know, I have -- I have today been in a small northern town in Lancashire called Rochdale, where a huge scandal emerged last year, and it showed that young white working-class girls, most of whom had come from very disadvantaged backgrounds and were being looked in care by the local authorities were being systematically, almost industrially, sexually abused and groomed before that by Pakistani Muslim men who had come into this country.

And this was known. It was known by the child protection officers. It was known by the local Labor-run authority. It was known by the police force who received several complaints. And do you know what they did? Nothing, because they feared if they said anything or did anything, they might appear to be racist.

So -- so, that's kind of how we start off in the U.K. with this problem. And then it leads on to more. It leads on to whole districts becoming no-go zones for the police. It leads on to Sharia law actually being implemented in parts of British cities.

And then after that, it leads to British citizens going off to Syria and Iraq to fight for the Islamic State. And my argument, and it's absolutely clear, is if we in Britain and America and the West, if we people who come from Christian cultures and believe in democracy value them, we'd better stand up and start fighting for them.

And that doesn't mean we're against other religions. Far from it. We can be tolerant. Of course we can. This country, Britain, has always been tolerant of different cultures and communities, but we have to accept that our society is based on the rule of law, and based on the fact that every individual must be treated equally.

CAVUTO: And I think, as you pointed out in a prior visit, the other side is very intolerant of our being intolerant. It goes back and forth.

But be that as it may, I do want to get your thoughts on this big Scottish decision today. One way or the other, it's going to be close. What are your thoughts?

FARAGE: My thoughts are that no will win. My thoughts are -- and here I am with half-an-hour to go making a prediction.

(LAUGHTER)

FARAGE: I think the no vote...

(LAUGHTER)

FARAGE: Yes, of course I am.

CAVUTO: The no vote meaning that the Scots opt not to leave the United Kingdom.

FARAGE: Yes.

I think the -- I think the Scots will vote to stay within the United Kingdom. I think the margin will be slightly healthier than commentators are speculating. But let me -- let me -- let me say this. Nationalism is a good thing in small quantities.

Believing in your country, believing in your flag, believing you want your family to understand the inheritance that you're giving them, that's good. But when you get nationalism in excesses, and Alex Salmond's Scottish National Party certainly is excessive nationalism, if you link it to socialism, you have got a lethal cocktail.

And what I have experienced myself on the streets of Scotland, what has been happening over the last two weeks, with intimidation of people who intend to vote for the union, threats to businesses that they will be boycotted, this has turned really, really ugly and nasty.

CAVUTO: Why do -- when I was covering this early this morning, I was on, and a lot of Brits who want to leave say that you -- not you, specifically, but that Britain has treated them shabbily, that they have been also-rans, that they're not getting nearly back in benefits what they give in taxes, and they're just ticked off and want out.

And one of them even said, we don't even flip over the queen. I mean, what is happening?

FARAGE: That is because there is a false prophet called Alex Salmond. And in history before, we have seen false prophets.

CAVUTO: He's the nationalist leader.

FARAGE: He is the nationalist leader.

And he has sold them -- yes, I have got to say, a pack of lies. Actually, the truth is that if you look at government spending per capita, we spent 1,800 pounds a head more on the Scots than we spend on the English. We have given them devolved powers and allowed their M.P.s to vote and operate in the Westminster Parliament on decisions that should have been just for the English.

CAVUTO: But are you worried about those concessions? Because the Northern Irish might want the same thing. Those in Wale might want it. And then -- and, you know, you make too many deals with too many people, you're in deep doo-doo.

FARAGE: Well, what has happened is, because Mr. Cameron, Mr. Clegg, and Mr. Miliband, the leaders of the three established parties, or, as I like to call them, legacy -- legacy parties...

CAVUTO: Right.

FARAGE: ... because they were panicking, because their own abject weak leadership has put the nationalists in a position where might win, they have literally signed a blank check in the course of the last 10 days.

Well, I'm sorry, but England makes up 86 percent of the population of the United Kingdom. And I want a deal hereafter that is fair to Northern Island, Wales, Scotland, and to England. And you are going to hear a lot more about the English voice in British politics over the course of the next few weeks.

CAVUTO: Well, this did needlessly blow up in Britain's face.

But we will watch very, very closely, Nigel, as we will you. Appreciate it, sir.

FARAGE: Thank you very much.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELI MANNING, NEW YORK GIANTS: As players, we have got to -- we have got to be aware of what is going on, learn -- learn from the situations.

And -- but we still have to go out there, do our job, be good citizens in our community, and be good people, and try to reflect our image and the New York Giants in a positive way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST: When two-time Super Bowl MVP Eli Manning talks, people tend to listen. At least the NFL hopes so, because after seeing its third player in a week removed from his team over domestic abuse charges, the latest, Arizona running back Jonathan Dwyer, brand guru Grant Cardone says the league has got to do a lot more to counter the impression that doesn't look good.

Bringing Eli Manning out, I mean, is a step in the right direction, but what now?

GRANT CARDONE, OWNER, CARDONE ENTERPRISES: Neil, look, they need clear, very clear rules.

In life and in games, there's clear rules, penalties and rewards. There's more penalties against hitting a quarterback today in the NFL than there are against hitting children or spouses.

CAVUTO: All right, but I always wonder, if there's going to be hell to pay for the NFL, then all the sponsors, they would be up and leaving now. But they get all high and mighty and say, oh, we find this ghastly and horrible.

But I have as of yet to see anyone leave. Why is that?

CARDONE: You mean -- you mean the spectators?

CAVUTO: The sponsors, the sponsors.

CARDONE: They're not going to leave the game.

But the -- oh, the sponsors. There's too much money involved.

CAVUTO: Exactly.

CARDONE: But that doesn't mean the brand, the NFL brand, is not being tarnished by not taking a stand. This is not about -- like Eli Manning says, about education. This is about clear, concise rules. Look, you will be banned from the NFL if you are found guilty of domestic abuse, child abuse, or any type of physical abuse off the field. It should be just very clear, and a penalty so deep that these people will not use force off the field, which is what they're paid to do on the field.

CAVUTO: Yes, but I don't think anything really moves the needle unless a sponsor just up and bolts.

Now, apparently, the problem is, the sponsor gets annoyed, but the sponsor doesn't leave because someone will happily take a McDonald's place or Radisson Hotel's place. And I think that without that financial pressure, I don't think a lot is going to change. Maybe I'm jaded. But what do you think?

CARDONE: Yes, I think you're jaded then, if you offer that up to me.

I mean, look, the sponsor is not the one committing...

CAVUTO: Well, tell me one sponsor who has left. Tell me one sponsor who has left.

CARDONE: No, they haven't. They haven't. And why would they? They didn't commit -- they didn't commit the crime. The person that committed - - nor did the NFL.

But the NFL commits a crime in not being clear about the reward and the penalty. Look, I'm paid -- they're paid to do well on the field. They should be penalized to create or cause crime off the field. It's just -- there's no clear law right now.

If I'm going to lose a $5 million contract, I'm not going to hit people off the field. It's going to be clear. It's not the sponsor's roll. It's not Holiday Inn or an airline's to say, I'm not going to go because or I'm not going to advertise because Ray Rice...

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Well, I guess I go back to the sponsor thing. But if I'm a sponsor and I say, I really mean what I say, but I keep spending and supporting the NFL, then I don't mean what I say and I'm a phony.

CARDONE: Neil, if you go downstairs right now, cock somebody in the head, Rupert is probably going to get rid of you, OK?

It's not going to be your sponsors that should step up and say, I'm never going to advertise on FOX because Neil Cavuto went and popped somebody in the head.

CAVUTO: Well, I don't think that would happen, but thanks for bringing up...

(CROSSTALK)

CARDONE: Of course it wouldn't, unless you ate too many doughnuts.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: Grant Cardone, thank you very, very much. All right.

NEIL CAVUTO, HOST: Time is almost up. You're looking at Ingliston, Scotland. I hope I got that right.

Is that it? Sir Martin Sorrell is joining us here.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: And you never, never question someone with a "Sir" in front of his name.

(LAUGHTER) CAVUTO: Back with me, Sir Neil Cavuto, the sir of Italy. I have no idea.

SIR MARTIN SORRELL, FOUNDER AND CEO, WPP GROUP: Lord Cavuto sounds better. CAVUTO: Anyway, he is the CEO, of course, of the marketing advertising giant WPP Group.

How do you think it is looking?

SORRELL: It looks -- well, the people down south are saying a small no vote, something like 53-47 as no.

CAVUTO: That's a little wider than...

SORRELL: That's, I think...

CAVUTO: But that's in the south.

SORRELL: I think, generally, people are around that level. We will see. It's very difficult to predict, because we have...

CAVUTO: It's a close vote. It's a close vote.

SORRELL: ... people voting at the age of 16.

And you were asking me before we came on air who are likely to vote yes. Well, the younger people, who have less at stake, probably less experienced, some people might say, will probably vote more for yes. The postal votes, from what I have heard, have come in, which tend to be the more established people, some people who have gone abroad or who are voting, are tending to vote, I think, no, against separation.

I mean, this use of the word independence, any adviser would say to the no vote, you should talk about separation and the cost of separation.

So, I think...

CAVUTO: But when you are talking those kind of numbers, I mean, you're -- that's a fairly close vote. I mean...

SORRELL: Well, Quebec was, what? It was 0.3, 50.3?

CAVUTO: Yes. But Quebec -- those old Quebec separatists were out in Scotland, right, trying to drum up interest.

SORRELL: Absolutely, well, yes. And the Orangemen were out saying, stay in the union.

CAVUTO: That's right.

SORRELL: And it got very passionate.

CAVUTO: How did you personally feel about this whole thing?

SORRELL: Sad, actually. And it's very interesting you say that.

I saw George Osborne, the chancellor, on the Andrew Marr program on BBC the Sunday before last. And that was the time when George Osborne said, we will give -- if you vote no, we will give you a package of devolution measures.

CAVUTO: Right.

SORRELL: In other words, you will get more power in Scotland, and Alex Salmond and the SNP party will get more power, irrespective of whether the Scots vote not -- yes or no.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: We should just explain to the people who don't know your fine region as well as Salmond is the guy who has really become the center of this nationalist movement.

You argue, win or lose, he comes out looking OK.

(CROSSTALK)

SORRELL: Well, because it's -- if it's going to be so close -- if it was more than 55-44, it might be a different case.

But on the assumption that it falls somewhere around sort of 3 percent or 4 percent, the no vote in favor, I think Alex Salmond gains a lot of ground and Scotland will get more powers in order to calm people down. And that -- now, there has been a -- I was looking at the interviews you were doing before.

Obviously, it was a severe miscalculation by the government in the terms of the referendum. Highly unusual that would you have 16-year-olds voting. Usually, it would be 18-plus, not 16, but...

CAVUTO: Couldn't anyone counter that to say, that's a little nutty?

SORRELL: Well, I think there was even more, to use your word, nutty - - it wouldn't be my word, but ill-advised.

CAVUTO: I think it sounds good when you just say it like that.

SORRELL: Ill-advised. No, ill-advised, I think.

But it was -- why did they have the no vote being the vote to stay in? Why wasn't that the yes vote? Why did they have to have the age thing? Why didn't they have a third question on the ballot, what we call devo max, which is, if you voted no, Scotland still would get more powers, or you had the option of voting for more powers for Scotland, as opposed to a yes or no vote.

CAVUTO: Yes. It was very, very simple.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: But let me ask you this, though. I'm looking at this. I'm looking at North Ireland. I'm looking at Wales.

And they might say, hey, what you did for them, you have got to do for me?

SORRELL: I did something on Sky, you will be pleased to know.

CAVUTO: Good. Good.

SORRELL: And following me, there was a man from Yorkshire that said Yorkshire should be devolved, separated.

CAVUTO: Really?

SORRELL: So, yes.

CAVUTO: Something is...

SORRELL: Quite bizarre. There would be very much of a deficit economy in the case of Yorkshire.

So, you are going to get, not just in the U.K., but the Catalans in Spain. There's been noise already about what's going to happen in Spain.

CAVUTO: So, even with the defeat of this, if it comes to that, that movement's alive and well?

SORRELL: Yes. And the other thing I think to understand is, this is a political movement. Economically, I think people are agreed that prices will rise if there is a yes vote. Prices will rise in Scotland. Unemployment will rise in Scotland. And interest rates will rise in Scotland, because the currency is a big issue. Will the Scots use the pound? British government, Bank of England governor says no.

So...

CAVUTO: Scots say that if they can...

SORRELL: Well, they say they can.

CAVUTO: They can't.

SORRELL: But, basically, they won't be able to.

So, in order to join the E.U., which they want to, one of the terms is, you have to have your own currency, which means there will have to be a Scottish pound. The risk profile of Scotland as a country, a $300 billion economy, as opposed to a $3 trillion as, or close to $3 trillion, as part of the U.K., changes markedly as a result of separation.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Well, one way or the other, do you think Cameron is toast?

SORRELL: Well, I heard a comment -- all I would say -- we're getting into tough territory here -- is that if... (CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Well, Rupert Murdoch thinks he could be.

SORRELL: Well, it's a possibility. I think probably not. I hate to disagree with Rupert on his own channel, but...

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Go ahead. This is your final visit. It's no big deal.

(LAUGHTER)

SORRELL: It does raise a question about why the terms of the referendum were as we discussed.

And if you were a CEO of a company and a subsidiary or a large operating company or 10 percent of the company, 10 percent of the country disappeared overnight...

CAVUTO: Right. Right.

SORRELL: ... because of some miscalculation, you probably wouldn't keep your job as CEO.

So there is something in what Rupert says. I -- whatever happens, the right wing of the -- you had Nigel Farage on here...

CAVUTO: Right.

SORRELL: ... who has caused great disruption for the Conservative Party, because he's attracted a lot of support.

We have had one conservative M.P. moving over to...

(CROSSTALK)

SORRELL: ... just recently.

CAVUTO: That's right. That's right.

SORRELL: So it's fractured the Conservative Party.

Now, Scotland is very interesting, because that was the -- Scotland is about the fracturing of the Labor Party up in Scotland as well. It's at the heartland of Labor. And, of course, if Scotland were separated, ironically, or paradoxically, the Conservative Party would end up...

CAVUTO: They would be fine.

SORRELL: They would be fine.

(CROSSTALK)

CAVUTO: Cameron might be toast, but they would be fine.

(CROSSTALK)

SORRELL: Well, we have to see what happens in the election next year.

CAVUTO: Yes.

SORRELL: I think probably...

(CROSSTALK)

SORRELL: ... Cameron will have to wait for the general election next year.

CAVUTO: Sir Martin Sorrell, very good seeing you.

SORRELL: Thank you, Sir Neil. It's a pleasure.

CAVUTO: Please.

SORRELL: Lord Cavuto.

CAVUTO: It's the closest I will ever -- lord? I like that. Class act.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: All right, the voting got -- the last few minutes. We shall see.

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