ObamaCare glitches lead to tech surge with unknown price tag

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," October 21, 2013. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle. Yes, with the others -- along with Bob Beckel, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld.

It's 5 o'clock in New York City -- and this is "The Five".


GUILFOYLE: Three weeks after the disastrous rollout of his signature piece of legislation, President Obama was forced to admit this.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's no sugarcoating it, the Web site has been too slow, people have been getting stuck during the application process, and I think it's fair to say that nobody's more frustrated by that than I am.


GUILFOYLE: But just a few weeks ago, the president said complaints about the law were baseless.


OBAMA: Most of the stories you'll hear about how ObamaCare just can't work is just not based on facts. Every time they have predicted something not working, it's worked.


GUILFOYLE: And, of course, up until now, all the problems were just itty-bitty little glitches.


OBAMA: There is no doubt that in implementing the Affordable Care Act, the program of this significance, there are going to be some glitches. Like any law, like any big product launch, there are going to be some glitches as this thing unfolds.

Like every new law, every new product rollout, there are going to be some glitches in the sign-up process along the way --


GUILFOYLE: But today, we're supposed to believe that the president is really frustrated. And he's promising to get it right this time.


OBAMA: Nobody's madder than me about the fact that the Web site isn't working as well as it should, which means it's going to get fixed.


GUILFOYLE: All right. Mr. Bolling, where do we go with this?


OK, so I don't like ObamaCare. I don't believe it's constitutional. It's riddled with hidden costs that will come out as we go along. Your privacy is gone.

But my biggest problem here is President Obama's inability to grasp what's going on. He has a broken Web site. This is going to handle $2.5 trillion of our economy, $2.5 trillion every year is going to basically be administered through this Web site.

He has to stop and say, look, it's not ready. We have to pull this back. We're going to do it the right way. We'll fix it and then we'll relaunch it when it's ready.

Him saying, oh, you know, it's going to get fixed. There are 5 million lines, 5 million lines of code that have to be rewritten according to "The New York Times" today. It's not going to be ready in the next couple of weeks. They shut the system down both weekends the last two weekends.

This thing is a disaster about to happen. And forget what the real disaster, when people realize how much they're going to end up paying it, he's got to stop. He's got to pull it back. He's got to man up and say, it's not ready, we'll fix it first.

GUILFOYLE: The fundamentals aren't even there. Let alone we haven't touched on the privacy concerns because the lack of security there and it's rife with opportunity for identity theft which freaks me out as a prosecutor.


DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, all weekend long, the media billed the speech that President Obama gave today as one that was going to be a speech where President Obama would take responsibility, he was going to lay out a plan, he was going to show us the way forward to get out of what has been described, fairly on all accounts, as a complete fiasco.

Instead, he came out -- and it was like watching one of those Saturday morning real estate seminars. Where he actually believes what he's saying. And we're going to get to it a little bit later.

A reporter today asked Jay Carney, the press secretary, who isn't telling the president the truth? That's how it looks. If you -- look, if you are a conservative, you're so frustrated because you believe in the market. You just don't believe that governments can run markets efficiently.

So it's only been two weeks. But they haven't shown a path forward and you're going to have to -- you have people who are paying for plans that are more expensive than the ones that they had, if they still have their plans. It's more expensive than many of them are saying that they can afford. May not have had their doctors and hospitals, those are all changing.

And you are also dealing with this website that doesn't calculate the subsidies correctly and won't even tell you what you should owe.

Bob, why are you all laughing at me?



PERINO: That's was an excellent diatribe.


GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: For some reason, the camera became enamored by my grin. It happens wherever I go.

GUILFOYLE: And Greg was on there mugging for the camera like some 1970s --

GUTFELD: I wasn't mugging, I was just sitting here.


GUILFOYLE: -- magazine.

All right, Greg. We'll call on you next.

GUTFELD: When you saw the people that we're behind President Obama, they were there for a reason, they were there because they had signed up for ObamaCare. This is when they would usually show that clip.

But anyway, instead, they were actually all the people who signed up for ObamaCare.


GUTFELD: There's 12 people that actually made it through. It was like having the World Series team show up congratulating them for a great achievement you got through.

The North Korean space program had a better launch than this thing. I think there's something like 270 Web sites more popular than Obama care. And one of them I believe is

PERINO: Oh. What is that?

GUTFELD: I want to make a philosophy --

GUILFOYLE: Bizarro reference.

GUTFELD: -- philosophical point here.


GUTFELD: Failure doesn't matter in government, because there is no competition. So big government uses the lexicon of religion to justify their incompetence. Evil, in religion, is a product of free will. Incompetence is part of the incompetence of the human beings, the failure of the human being. It's never the big government. It's never their program that is evil. It is because we are inherently flawed which means they can never, ever, ever be punished for their misdeeds.

The media will never learn from Obama care the same way they didn't learn from anything that happened in the last century regarding socialism. They keep touching that stove, the stove of socialism, and we get burned.

GUILFOYLE: That was a profound thought right there. OK, Bob, do you have anything to say?

BECKEL: Well, five minutes of -- six minutes into the segment, let me just say this briefly if I could.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, please.

BECKEL: I have suggested that this thing needs to be held off. But once again, we edited here a couple things where Obama said they said it wasn't going to work. He was talking about the substance of the bill. He wasn't talking about the glitches. But what doesn't work, it just doesn't work.

And the fact is that people who need this stuff need to be assured they can go there, and whether you like ObamaCare or not, at least --

GUILFOYLE: After all --

BECKEL: Get yourself insured.


BOLLING: Can I respond to that?


BOLLING: That's the next shoe to drop. Once you get through the glitches and the Web site starts working and people start realizing 20 and 30-year-olds that number one, it's going to, "A," cost them more to have health insurance, and then, "B," if they take the bronze plan they could have six or seven or $8,000 in deductibles they're going to say, I don't need to do this. I'm not going to do this.

Then, here's what happens next. Then, it's the cost of $900 billion goes to $1.8 trillion now and then that doubles again and we realize it's going to be a $4 trillion bailout. They've got to go to Congress and say we need help in order to insure all these --


GUILFOYLE: Oh, my gosh --

GUTFELD: They're all Obama voters that are now getting money for voting for Obama.

GUILFOYLE: Right, they had free rides.

BECKEL: Listen, if somebody gets downhill, in an extreme sport and does have no insurance and becomes a quadriplegic who pays for it? We all pay for it.

GUTFELD: You're saying this is now payback?

BECKEL: Damn right.

GUILFOYLE: I jut find this very confusing. I don't know which Obama to believe. Is it Obama on this shoulder, or this Obama on this shoulder? If he can't make up his mind, his rhetoric is all over the place. Could be spin dancing. We've got to get a SOT in.

Go ahead.

BOLLING: Talk about this economically I'm listening to President Obama speak today and he's talking about all these people who are going to get insured. You haven't dropped the cost of anything. You haven't dropped the cost of health care. All you've done is you have applied -- you've enabled more people to get health insurance, but the cost of care keeps skyrocketing. There's no way this is going to work. There's absolutely no economic basis for this working.

BECKEL: It's going for years --

GUILFOYLE: Because the model is what.

But listen I think you guys are getting way stressed out over absolutely nothing. Because I listened to the president, and he said that ObamaCare is good. And the only thing I can think of is, because it has Obama in its name. Listen.


OBAMA: The product is good. The health insurance that's being provided is good. And we know that the demand is there. People are rushing to see what's available. And those who've already had a chance to enroll are thrilled with the results.



PERINO: Who told him that?

BOLLING: You know what he said? He actually said thousands of people have enrolled. Think about that. We're three weeks in and he said thousands of people have enrolled,15 percent of the people in America need health insurance, that's 48 million people need insurance. And three weeks in, thousands have enrolled. This is a colossal failure.

GUILFOYLE: But it just doesn't make sense. People can't enroll. They can't get on.

BECKEL: You have to be in the December 15th in order to get the insurance from January. Why don't we wait and see what happens to December 15 --

PERINO: I don't think you can wait. I think that you were right in your advice last week and we were right in August where President Obama should take the delay, because are you willing to risk that by December 15th it's still not up and running and then guess what? Then you get a bill for a penalty for a product that you were forced to buy but you couldn't get on to buy it because it doesn't work.

Let me tell through are more shoes in ObamaCare than a centipede would have.

GUILFOYLE: Wait, he's giving us shoes --

PERINO: Here is the next one that's going to drop. Scott Gottlieb of "Forbes" wrote this piece today and it boils down to this -- is not giving correct information to people about how much it costs because they're trying to hide the effect of the sequester? And are people going to find out that they actually owe more than they thought that they did when they originally got on or they were shopping around?

GUILFOYLE: The answer is yes.

PERINO: This is -- this is going to be a huge discussion, I think it should be, on the hill, to find out what political decisions were made to hold back information or to delay rulemaking to make ObamaCare even more painful for the people that are now being forced to buy it.

BECKEL: You know, I was --

GUILFOYLE: He's got a problem because he thinks he's the winner. He thinks he's the winner. He's like, I'm the winner. Now he wants to --

BECKEL: What I find interesting is that barring the Bush word about surge, with the technology people, now they do have an interesting thing working. So, you're going to see the Apple people come in, you're going to see all these people come in.

The problem of course is you get this surge of technology. You ever sat around with a bunch of those people? They're boring. They're not creative. I don't think they're that creative.

PERINO: What's the incentive for them to help? Why?

BECKEL: Because big Obama supporters.

PERINO: Why? Where have they been?

GUILFOYLE: With friends like that, who needs enemies?


PERINO: Where they've been in the last four years?

BECKEL: They give him did hundreds of billions of dollars.

PERINO: Yes, but American taxpayers have spent over $600 million on a system that hasn't -- isn't working.

BECKEL: I don't know why --

GUILFOYLE: The guy in Greg's basement could come up with a better platform that works, right? He could design a better Web site.

GUTFELD: No, he died.

BECKEL: You guys know something about it.

PERINO: How do you feel about that? But you know what? There's a reason for a no big contract if there's nobody else available that's able to do the job and deliver a service.

BECKEL: Oh, I see. That's why Halperin (ph) got that contract.

PERINO: Absolutely.

BECKEL: I see. OK.

PERINO: Did the troop ever miss a mail?

GUILFOYLE: Here's something else. Greg, Greg, don't worry. Take a break.

GUTFELD: I just want to make a point and I'm not banning the phrase -- I'm just saying glitches are what happened to your cable system. It shouldn't happen to your colon so we should stop using the word glitches.

I also want to make a point about the media. Ezra Klein said the flaws that we're talking about now had been obscured.

It wasn't obscured to us. Anybody with common sense, and who understands history, saw what was coming. The media missed the story because they weren't compelled to rat out something that they wanted. Exposing ObamaCare for a media hack would be like being Fredo in "The Godfather". You don't turn on your family.

That's why all of a sudden this stuff is like a big surprise. By the way, there are big winners in ObamaCare. It's the people who wrote it. It's the world's longest resume because everybody involved in writing ObamaCare now has very cushy jobs in lobbying firms, I think the principal architect now works for Johnson & Johnson.

So everybody won.


BECKEL: Don't you agree this is another example of how this shutdown obscured a lot of this, this story was going on nonstop the last month.

GUILFOYLE: But this story is just perfect like every little like frightening bedtime story.

BECKEL: We're going into the holidays.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Well, how about this? We've got a little frightening thing here because if you want to be mad, the president told exactly who is responsible for all of this glitches and all. Listen to what he thinks about the Republicans.


OBAMA: I recognize that the Republican Party has made blocking the Affordable Care Act its signature policy idea. Sometimes it seems to be the one thing that unifies the party these days. But it's time for folks to stop rooting for its failure, because hard-working, middle- class families are rooting for its success.


GUILFOYLE: Those bad Republicans.

BOLLING: You know, look, I'm the business guy. Look at it this way if I were launching iPhone for Z-phone or XY-123 phone and we did a beta on it and it didn't work, you pull it back and say we know we promised it on this date but it's not ready. Or we open it, we launched it, we have problems, you pull it back.

President Obama is the CEO of ObamaCare. He's the CEO of this disaster. He's going to own this going forward.

It would be in his best interest to say hold on for a second. Let me just point out, you said we're taking -- because of the shutdown? There's plenty of time, Bob.

BECKEL: Yes, there is.

BOLLING: This thing is not going to be next week or next month.

BECKEL: One thing --

GUILFOYLE: Bob, Dana, Greg.

BECKEL: OK, the one thing that I would say here is that if anybody believes for a second that the Republicans do not want to see this fail, they are living in la la land.

But I will give the Republicans this -- they want to see it fail because they don't think it works. They think it's bad policy.

GUILFOYLE: That's good.

BECKEL: But there's not a single Republican I know that's not doing everything they can to destroy it.

GUILFOYLE: But you said they're doing it for the right reasons.

BECKEL: Not necessarily. I don't agree with them.

GUILFOYLE: Because they think it's bad policy.

BECKEL: They think it is. But I think they're bad policy.

BOLLING: You know, Bob, President Obama and ObamaCare Web site is doing its own job making this fail. Doesn't any help from Republicans.

GUILFOYLE: Republicans, they stand by and go like this, I didn't touch him. I didn't --

PERINO: It is amazing that you -- it's amazing that how quickly people can forget something like the shutdown, because the shutdown was supposed to be this inflict major pain to the average American, the average American actually didn't feel that pain in two weeks. They watched a lot of nonsense in Washington, D.C., everybody weighs poll numbers go down.

But today, we wake up and everybody's talking about the exact same thing they could have been talking about three weeks ago.

GUTFELD: The pain was a lot. Talking about the $26 billion lost, as if the turrets who didn't go to the monument didn't go and spend their money elsewhere and actually it's the economy is losing money because of ObamaCare because of the part time jobs.

I love the fact that the administration claims that no one is more frustrated about this than ObamaCare.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, right.

GUTFELD: I guess we should feel bad for him. Does ObamaCare treat Obama sadness? Because I hope that it applies to him.

Human beings resist one size fits all government, a coercive central planning kills, special orders do upset them. That's the difference between government, and private industry and why this is a problem.

BECKEL: Please don't let him say that to anybody.

GUILFOYLE: All right.

BECKEL: You go from Meals on Wheels to WIC and people were hurt.

GUTFELD: Wheels on wheels?

BECKEL: Meals on Wheels.

PERINO: It got solved. That's the --

GUTFELD: And everybody got back pay.

PERINO: Yes. It all worked out.

GUILFOYLE: There's just so much to talk about. We just have an hour.


GUILFOYLE: All right. Before we go, we have a question for you besides that question. Do you think President Obama should delay ObamaCare implementation for six months to a year? Bob says so. So, yes or no?

We want you to vote on a Facebook page at

And coming up: where is the woman in charge of ObamaCare's rollout? Is she hiding? Congress wants answers from Kathleen Sebelius on the botched launch, but will she testify? That's next on "The Five". Stay with us.


GUTFELD: I am so embarrassed -- I am embarrassed for everyone here.

PERINO: That song was great.

GUTFELD: Watching -- watching you people dance makes me vomit.

PERINO: Well, you people is a broad statement.

OK. Welcome back to "The Five".

Should the secretary in charge of ObamaCare be held accountable for the failure to launch? Lawmakers wanted Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius to testify at a hearing that's going to take place this Thursday, but she turned them down.

Today, her department announced that she will testify, but they won't confirm a date. The White House says that the president is standing by her.


ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Does she still have the full confidence of the president?

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The secretary does have the full confidence of the president. She, like everyone else in this effort, is focused on our number one priority which is making the implementation of the Affordable Care Act work well.


PERINO: But some members of the media are wondering how long that's going to last?


CHUCK TODD, NBC NEWS: If all else fails, they're going to have to find a fall person, somebody, and say you know what? This didn't work. Fire somebody, maybe high profile -- Kathleen Sebelius is very nervous about her standing with the president.


PERINO: Greg, do you think it actually might be a worse punishment to have to stay and try to fix it than to be fired?

GUTFELD: Yes, and why -- why her? Because she's not -- her name isn't on the bill. Sebelius makes Louis Lerner look like Florence Nightingale. She's worse for your health than Lizzie Borden.

They took an ax to a lot of people's health care. She's a bad lady.

BECKEL: She (INAUDIBLE) inside the fire? No?

GUTFELD: You are so funny.

Reverend Lizzie Borden? Just a really, really old reference. I was talking about this. But, I love bureaucrats because when things are going well, they're always there. But when things are bad they suddenly disappear, whether it's Hillary Clinton, or Valerie Jarrett or Susan Rice. They all turn into Amelia Earhart.

BECKEL: If I had 100 bucks or every time a White House said a president has the full confidence of this person, that changes like that.


BECKEL: And I would not for a minute take that to the bank.

PERINO: Eric, do you think she deserves to be fired?


BOLLING: Yes. Here's why. Let them see we're Exxon. You're president of Exxon.

PERINO: Oh, good.

BOLLING: Kimberly is in charge of refining.


BOLLING: Bob's in charge of exploration. I'm in charge of transportation. Greg's in charge of R&D.

I'm transportation, right? If all my pipelines leak at once, they're not going to fire you, the shareholders aren't going to say, Dana, you blew it. They're going to say Dana what are you going to do about it? You're going to say, I'm firing the pipe line guy. All his pipelines leaked.

Kathleen Sebelius is the pipeline guy for ObamaCare. She's the one who signed the document and said, I'm hiring all those web designers in Canada, wherever they were. I spent 600 million bucks, although I was only given 80 million or 90 million to get it done. So, she overpaid. It still didn't work. Fire her. Get rid of her.

BECKEL: That $20,000 suit of yours has got a thread that's loose.

GUILFOYLE: Hold it, Bob.

PERINO: Kimberly, do you -- do you think it's reasonable for the American people to expect someone to be fired in all of this? Or do you think that --


PERINO: -- it's important for her to stay and try to fix it?

GUILFOYLE: Fix what? She couldn't get it up and running to begin with. I think it's been an abysmal failure if I were her I would run, hide in the mountains and become a recluse because it's embarrassing. It really is.

This is America. We are the leaders in innovation and technology and we can't get a basic health care Web site up and running? It's shameful. There's no excuse for it.

And in fact if this was the private sector, she'd be out. We wouldn't even be having this conversation.

GUTFELD: That's the point. It's not the private sector.

GUILFOYLE: But it should be.

GUTFELD: There are no competitive --

PERINO: Remember the State Department, all the people involved in Benghazi just got reassigned.

GUILFOYLE: She didn't get a promotion I'm quite sure.

BECKEL: Can somebody name me some bankers and Wall Street that took us down to the depression and did went and actually got fired?

PERINO: Well, first of all --

GUTFELD: Why do we have to name them?

BECKEL: It was closed.

PERINO: Bob, from a political standpoint and a communications standpoint, do you think it would help the administration if they were to go ahead and say there's going to be a change in personnel?

GUILFOYLE: Yes, I think probably, what I would probably do is bring in a very high profile, ask the head of Apple, whoever he is, to take a leave of absence and come in to take a lead.

BOLLING: Tim Cook is going to leave Apple, making hundreds of millions of dollars the right way to come fix ObamaCare?

BECKEL: Well, some people do it because they're patriots.

GUILFOYLE: Meaning, why do you suggest that --


BOLLING: How about this, we give the ObamaCare Web site to Apple and say, here, you administer it, and we'll pay you to do it.

BECKEL: OK, fine. That's fine.

GUTFELD: No, you don't even have to do that. Get somebody who works at Travelocity. Jesus, how many travel Web sites are there that do a far better job than this? You go on there. They look at everything and get their flights instantly.

Get somebody from there.

GUILFOYLE: How about give the guy at the local Starbucks that's ripping off everybody in the Wi-Fi system, when you have your phone on Wi-Fi and you're getting all your personal information.

BECKEL: You've ever been to Travelocity.


BECKEL: You're supposed to stay in a $90 hotel room and I ended up in a $400 hotel room.

GUTFELD: That's because he was sharing it.

BECKEL: That's right. There were five of us.

GUILFOYLE: Those are one percenter problems.

PERINO: Did you smoke in it?

BECKEL: Yes, we smoked.

PERINO: That's probably why it cost $400, because you're not allowed to smoke in the rooms.

BECKEL: Is that what it is, $250 in fines?

PERINO: Yes, exactly right, Bob.

GUTFELD: Also those things that happened -- well, never mind.

PERINO: All right. That was fun. Coming up, a wild brawl outside a football stadium is going viral and it appears to show a male jets fan punching a female patriots fan after yesterday's game. We're going to show you the rest of the tape ahead on "The Five".


GUTFELD: They're still dancing, and it's disgusting, the cramps (ph).

So, apparently there's a rift between hard right conservatives and the squishy establishment -- and why not? That's what happens when mom and dad fight in public. The Republican Party is the married couple at the car dealership, walking in with a set budget, and the dealer has a goal, breaking the united front.

He'll say to the wife, for a little more, you can get a sun roof and the husband will squirm. Then, he'll look to the husband and say, this is our new model, but it's out of your range.

So, you went in to buy a used Subaru but you drive out in a Porsche that dwarfs your mortgage. It's easier to fight a splintered foe than a solid bloc because the splintered forget who they're fighting against and that they're a team.

And as that team turns on itself, its opponents jogs easily to the end zone. See last week.

Part of this fracture is due to a gap in leadership. The team needs someone to remind them, we're in this thing together, not you guys are idiots for not following me.

Conservatism should be an inclusive tent where greeters wave you in based on a belief in individual freedoms.

But now, it's the pleasure of exclusion, bouncing those who aren't as rock-ribbed or smooth as you. The habit like a drink feels good but it's temporary and destructive because the next day, you're exactly where you were before, but with your enemy ahead, and you with a hangover.

PERINO: And your head up your you-know-what.

GUTFELD: Oh, really, Dana?

GUILFOYLE: Oh, was that necessary?

GUTFELD: This is a family show.

You know what? You're just awful.



GUTFELD: You got to hand it to the left. They fall in line for battle, because I remember, you know, it was going to be Hillary. And then, they said no it's Obama.

And she was brutal. They hated Obama. They painted him as a as a Kenyan born interloper and then they just got behind him.

Isn't that the problem here with the Republican Party is they cannot agree on the enemy?

BECKEL: Well, it's -- see, I disagree with that. I think they can't agree on some basic policy differences that they have. But I used to work at a funeral home. And when people came in --

GUILFOYLE: Is this a true for real?

BECKEL: No, real.

GUILFOYLE: I never heard this.

BECKEL: And when they came in, people would come to work out arrangements, they'd always have the cheap coffins way in the back, not lit well, and they would actually say, you want to bury your loved one in that?

GUILFOYLE: Did you do that, Bob?

BECKEL: Not me. I slept in one once.

PERINO: Oh, my gosh.

GUILFOYLE: Why do I even ask these questions?

GUTFELD: Kimberly, people like -- people in our line of business, Kimberly --

GUILFOYLE: What's our line of business?

GUTFELD: Talk radio, yelling and shouting without really any facts.


GUTFELD: But we our job is to call each other names, and question our motives. Politicians are not supposed to do that. They're not supposed to join the heckling. They're supposed to be on the team.

GUILFOYLE: So you're throwing a flag on it and saying conduct unbecoming. So what's the outcome then? What should be the punishment?

GUTFELD: Yes, what should be the punishment, Kimberly?

GUILFOYLE: I don't know, you want to create a third party? Was this kumbaya under one tenth. You don't see that happening any time?

GUTFELD: You don't?

GUILFYLE: No, I do not. Whether that's going to prove to be, you know, an abysmal failure in the end when it comes for election, or is it going to make the party stronger by encouraging more dialogue and new leaders emerging.

GUTFELD: Eric, that's a very pessimistic view.

BOLLNG: And I agree with her 100 percent. For the record I'd like the record to show that Mr. Gutfeld is one who said squishy Republicans first, when --

PERINO: He was quoting someone.

GUTFELD: I was quoting laud mouth talk show hosts.

BOLLING: All right, thank you. I'm guilty of that.

I see the conservative room and I see the Rand Pauls, the Ted Cruz, the Marco Rubios as the future of the party, not the John McCains, the Lindsey Graham's to a certain extent Mitch McConnell, Peter king. Those guys for me are the past. Those are the ones who are, they pretend to be in to smaller government, and the rule of law.

And I just think there's a rift and I'm not sure that it's always the far right taking the shot at dissenters. Sometimes it's the other way around, i.e., John McCain calling Ted Cruz and Rand Paul wacko birds and it goes on and on and on.

For me, where do I want to hang my hat? Who do I want to -- which horse do I want to saddle up? I'll take the young guns, the Rand Paul.

BECKEL: I want to hear Dana has to say --

GUILFOYLE: Rand Paul and Ted Cruz over there.


GUTFELD: Isn't what Eric saying kind of dangerous? He's saying I'd rather be with the principled people. You didn't say you want to win, you just want to be with the right people.

BOLLING: We're not winning with the -- Republicans.

PERINO: Well, would you rather have 30 U.S. senators that are Republicans, or claim to be in the Republican Party in the United States Senate or 45?

And if the answer is 30 and you have President Obama in office for the last two years, look what he did with ObamaCare. He could do with a veto proof majority in the Senate, which I don't think is going to happen. I think the Republicans have enough Tea Party, whatever Republicans of all stripes have enough common ground that they're going to want to win in 2014.

BECKEL: If I could just make a couple of historical points. This policy difference there is a big divide about foreign policy involvement. There are more people isolationists in certain parts of Republican Party and others who are not. This goes back to Taft and Roosevelt beginning of the century. Then, you had Goldwater and Rockefeller. You had -- I mean, Ronald Reagan, versus Ford.

And you know this split has been around the Republican Party for a long time. And the Democrats are not immune. When George McGovern lost so badly in '72, the centrists took the party back from big parties have big differences in their --

GUILFOYLE: You sound like you're agreeing with Eric.

BECKEL: I'm saying there are policy differences --

GUTFELD: You've got to want to win. Does the left win?

GUILFOYLE: But does the win matter more than the principle is what you're saying?

GUTFELD: Yes, the win matters.

BOLLING: Dana asked me a question would you rather have 45 or 30? I think I'd rather have 30 now because I think I'll have 45 or 55 --

PERINO: It won't matter the country will be so in the toilet it won't matter.


BOLLING: The only way to elicit real change is taking the heat first and maybe losing some races first to have a better country further down the future.

GUTFELD: Yes, but I mean, when you lose with Christine O'Donnell?

BOLLING: It's a start man. It's a start.

PERINO: But you don't think that the Republican senator of Delaware would have voted with the Republicans?

BOLLING: I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying --

PERINO: And now they have a reliable Democrat vote.

GUTFELD: ObamaCare might not have happened.

BECKEL: She would have been at a witch conference.

PERINO: Where? When?

GUTFELD: OK now. We're going to move on.

A bombshell investigation that uncovers how some lawmakers are personally profiting from their political office, enriching themselves and their families with campaign dollars, and it's all legal. That story is ahead.

GUILFOYLE: Did someone say legal?


BOLLING: Last night, "60 Minutes" had a great piece highlighting a practice little known but wildly outrageous. Congress men and women are milking their political action committee funds and paying themselves and their families a boat load of money.

Here's Steve Kroft confronting two.


STEVE KROFT, 60 MINUTES: Do you loan money to your campaign and charge the campaign 18 percent interest?


KROFT: It's still 18 percent and $228,000 in interest.


KROFT: Your campaign contributors know that you were paying back a loan, charging the campaign committee 18 percent?

NAPOLITANO: Well, you don't go out and publicize that but they know that I had a campaign debt.

KROFT: We just wanted to ask you about both your daughters are on the campaign staff. I mean the figures that we have according to the report, sir, $73,000 to Lisa Lowe and $57,000 to Ginger.

REP. RODNEY ALEXANDER (R), LOUISIANA: That's for two-year -- that's for the election cycle.

KROFT: I mean for some people it just looks like you're using your campaign fund to enrich your family.

ALEXANDER: Well, I kept it with somebody that I can trust. And if one can't trust their daughter, then who can they trust?



BOLLING: Too bad Kroft doesn't have those cojones when he interviews the president.

But there's more, during the 2008 and 2010 election cycles, 82 members of Congress had family members on their payroll.

The three worst offenders?

At number three, Maxine Waters a Democrat from California paid her daughter and grandson 495,000 bucks.

Jerry Lewis, former Republican congressman from California, also, paid his wife, 512,000 bucks.

And get this, the top dog number one, Alcee Hastings, the Democrat congressman from Florida's 20th, paid his girlfriend, $622,000.

Nice job, Congressman. You take the cake for the sleaziest sleaze ball in the ball pit.

Now, Bob, you're pretty fired up about this.

BECKEL: This story has been sitting out there and thank goodness they've done it. When they -- I originally testified in the Buckley v. Vallejo hearings when they said they wanted to put the cap on contributions at 1,000 bucks. That led to the proliferation of all these ways to get around $1,000.

So, they became bundlers, they became PACs, and they came up with this great idea the leadership PAC. They rammed it through the ethics committee and what it is is a member can take unlimited amounts of money and they can use it as they see fit. They're supposed to use it to give to other members of their party to help their elections.

But I have yet to see one that has ever used the majority -- the other thing I will say in my own campaigns I can't tell you the number of times I've had to get family members, I'd go to the candidate and say, we can't keep your wife doing this. I mean we're going to get killed.

BOLLING: So, Schweitzer's new book, he outlined in his prior book, he outlined the STOCK Act, which was really almost the same thing. These Congress people are trading in front of knowledge that other people don't have, outlined it, went through congress, guess what they found out it was legal, they don't change a darn thing. You think this time things get change?

GUILFOYLE: Wouldn't you hope so? Wouldn't to be positive, optimistic some actual outcome will come from this? It just seems this is just the way business is done. We've uncovered numerous examples of this.

In the past five years, it's countless. But you know the American people do deserve better. It's sad that there isn't more accountability, and honor amongst people that we elect and entrust with our money and with the future of our children.

BOLLING: We highlight the Republicans, too. This isn't a partisan.

PERINO: It's a bipartisan thing. But I also, I'm for no limits at on campaign contributions. But I would like complete and full disclosure. So money goes into the account, it shows up just like you would look at your own bank account that you could look at the congressman's if you wanted to.

And if their constituents are happy with it and it's still legal, they're allowed to do it.

GUILFOYLE: Well, they're making it legal is the problem.

GUTFELD: Politics were supposed to be a part-time job. You did something else for a living.


GUTFELD: Now, it's a tenured preservation of power. You're like the cousin that comes to stay at your house and sleeps on the couch for three days and turns into three months, and they don't leave, they eat your food, they hit on your wife, they destroy the bathroom.

Government is really an accumulation --

GUIFOYLE: Destroy the bathroom.

GUTFELD: It's an accumulation of relatives and guests who don't leave.

GUILFOYLE: The Kato Kaelins.

BECKEL: One quick with what Dana said, that is with incumbents, they can have PACs and raise a lot of money. Challengers have a much more difficult situation.

GUILFOYLE: They always get around it because --

BECKEL: Of course, they are. That's the one thing the Democrats and Republicans agree on.

BOLLING: We have to leave it there.

Directly ahead, Peyton Manning got a big standing "O" last night when he returned to Indianapolis last night. But things got ugly at the Jets game when one fan, male, clocked a female Patriots fan. We're going to show you the good, the bad and the ugly from yesterday's ball game. Stay with us.


BECKEL: It was an emotional homecoming in Indianapolis last night for Peyton Manning.

He's now quarterback of the Denver Broncos and it was the first time back at Lucas Oil Stadium since he was cut from the team last season.

The crowd still loves him and gave him a standing ovation. Manning wasn't able to lead his new team to victory. The Colts beat the Broncos 39-33. But it was a night, he says, he'll never forget.


PEYTON MANNING, DENVER BRONCOS: It was very nice. Very nice gesture by the Colts to do that. And I truly appreciate it, and there was a great reception from the fans, and I truly appreciated that, as well. Something I'll always remember. I was very grateful for it.


BECKEL: Dana, this is, I think, one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. What do you think about this?

PERINO: I don't know that much about sports. But what I loved about this is the sportsmanship and I like the graciousness of the fans and then how gracious he was, and a very good role model.

And from a communications standpoint, the NFL is one of the best story tellers, marketers of story of any institution I've ever seen.

GUILFOYLE: You had a very interesting comment to make. I like that.

BOLLING: The graciousness of the Colts defensive line was amazing. They sacked him five times, at least, and just took him off his game but what --

PERINO: I went to bed.

BECKEL: Oh, let me move on. Let me move on to a story that's not so sweet. The Jets last night against New England was one of the nastiest videos you're going to see of a fan attacked.

This one is a big, tough guy beats up a woman. Now that's not unusual for these rednecks who do this kind of stuff, but I'll tell you one thing. This guy should be in jail. If he can't -- if you have to beat up on women, go find a guy to beat up. I'll meet you someplace if you want, you punk.

Go ahead.

BOLLING: Yes, he's a moron. He smacked the girl pretty hard in the face. There are a lot -- listen, that's all I'm going to say.

PERINO: Go ahead, Eric. You say it.

BOLLING: No, I'm not going to say it.

PERINO: You say, Greg -

GUTFELD: What? No, I was going to say this is why I only watch girls lacrosse from a tree. You don't hit women.

GUILFOYLE: Come on. Where's the justification for this?

GUTFELD: What do you want to -- this story is so stupid. You see a guy punch a girl. What can you say? You can't hit the girl, even if she's attacking you.

GUILFOYLE: But guess what? Maybe you should be prosecuted. He's a bad guy.

GUTFELD: Do you think he knew it was a woman coming at him?

GUILFOYLE: It wouldn't surprise me if he has bad behavior like this in the past.

GUTFELD: Why are you calling him a redneck? Where is he from?

BOLLING: New York.

BECKEL: Long Island, they are full of them out there.

GUILFOYLE: Now it's Long Island.

BECKEL: I know.

Dana, anything you want to say?


GUILFOYLE: Can I say one thing? I really respect the Manning family.

BECKEL: They are unbelievable.

GUILFOYLE: He's one of the most respected sports figures of all time. He's a class act. It's a class act and it just goes to show that they represented well.

BECKEL: I don't respect a lot of Jets fans, but they in Philly are the worst.


GUTFELD: -- a whole group of people because of that.

BECKEL: Right, I shouldn't do that. All of them are like that.

GUILFOYLE: Now you're loud.

BECKEL: I'm not going to be loud for one thing because "One More Thing" is up -- next!

GUILFOYLE: You're not a man of your word.


GUILFOYLE: Magic time. That moment. "One More Thing".


BOLLING: OK. So, President Obama made his big Obama care speech. Did you see this going on in the background towards the end of the speech?


OBAMA: To free families from the pervasive fear that one illness - - I got you. No, no, you're OK.

This happens when I talk too long.

You'll be OK. Why don't you go --

Good catch, by the way, whoever was here.


BOLLING: So, OK, she's OK. She tweeted that she's all right. She also said she was pregnant and she had diabetes.

But my question is, these prop people, the prop people behind, they shouldn't have ObamaCare --

BECKEL: You're not supposed to talk about that. It's one more thing.

BOLLING: And number two, she said thank you --

BECKEL: You're not supposed to talk about policy stuff. That's a drive-by policy.

BOLLING: Please don't tell me this was a staged event. He caught her? All these people, he caught her?

PERINO: You are a good conspiracy theorist.

GUILFOYLE: Ay, dios mio.

GUTFELD: I think it was camp trails.


PERINO: Mine is a quick quiz. released a new survey of 2,000 men and women. And they talk about, what is the sexiest accent, the most attractive accent in the United States. The Southern drawl is number one. It was going to be a quiz.


PERINO: It's surprising that New Jersey accent was number five. Where's the British accent?

GUILFOYLE: She had a nice South Carolina accent.

OK. Who is next? Greg? Make it good.

GUTFELD: Today is the birthday for Eric Lee Purkhiser, otherwise known as Lux Interior of The Cramps. He would have been 66 today. But died at the age of 62 in 2009. He was the lead singer of a band called The Cramps. One of the greatest rock and roll bands ever.

If you have never heard of them, check them out. Get (INAUDIBLE) or how to make a monster. But if you grew up on "Mad" magazine and listened Dr. Demento, and are attracted to the unusual, The Cramps are for you.

GUILFOYLE: That was like a weird MTV moment.


GUTFELD: I love conservatives. Any time anything new comes up, ew, weird.

GUILFOYLE: I thought they were old.

BECKEL: Another birthday, Kim Kardashian is 53. And all that plastic surgery, Kim, has worked. Congratulations. She was born October 21, 1960 and she supposedly is a television personality. I don't know what.

Her claim to fame was she had a sex tape with her boyfriend Ray Jay, but if you'd be able to look at it, it was more boring sex tape --

GUILFOYLE: He had a show too --

BECKEL: Yes, right. She's a joke.

GUTFELD: Why do you hate her?

BECKEL: I can't stand her.

GUILFOYLE: Did anybody see this picture of Rihanna? She was posing in front of the grand mosque and he captioned it no tan lines. Of course, she was removed because they did not appreciate this lack of sensitivity.


GUILFOYLE: She was laying out posing and writing no tan lines.

BECKEL: Did she take her clothes off or something?

GUILFOYLE: No, never mind. We'll talk about it later.

That is for us FIVE. Thanks for watching. See you tomorrow.

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