Juan Williams calls out Al Sharpton and Michael Eric Dyson

Race debate on 'The Five'


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," July 30, 2013. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Race has been the topic over the last couple weeks, but if we're going to do this right, if we're going to have an honest discussion among people who care about the problems inside the black community, we have to be dealing with honest brokers. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the so-called civil rights community are frauds, outright hucksters.

Two of the worst -- Al Sharpton, Michael Eric Dyson. Their goal -- demonized white people, especially conservatives like Bill O'Reilly, so they don't have to deal with the real problems that continue, continue to plague the black community. Making an older conservative white guy like O'Reilly a boogie man is easy for the hustlers.

Confronting real problems and threats in the minority community -- no. High murder rates? How about that? High dropout rates? Family breakdown?

I bet you think I'm exaggerating. Well, listen to Michael Eric Dyson.


MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, GEORGETOWN UNIV. PROFESSOR: Why is it that when we say we want to have a conversation on race, you want a conversation on blackness? You don't want to have a conversation on race. You don't want to have a conversation on white privilege, unconscious bias. You don't want to talk about the collective world we made as black, brown, red, yellow and white people. You want to lecture black people.

So, Mr. O'Reilly, I'd love to have that conversation about protecting yourself behind white fences and Fox News and having digital courage. Come in the streets where you went to Sylvia, and you were surprised that black people don't throw bananas at each other or swing from trees.


WILLIAMS: Can you believe that?

This is unbelievable on so many levels. But let me just start by saying

This -- he is making the charge basically that O'Reilly is portraying black people as animals, animals. And, of course, this never happened. This is not true.

O'Reilly, in fact, in the whole episode at Sylvia's, which O'Reilly and I talked about on the radio, was going on about defeating racial stereotypes in this society. But that's not what Michael Eric Dyson wants to do. He wants to hold up somehow that Bill O'Reilly is a racist and target of the conversation and therefore we should be about somehow going after Bill O'Reilly.

Well, who does that help? Let's think about that for a second. If this is a real conversation about helping people, if you truly love people, and want to help those in need, how does it help to go after conservatives, O'Reilly, white people, rich people? Let's go to the people who need help and give them help.

But that's not what Michael Eric Dyson is doing. Oh, no. When you start talking about -- well, are you doing anything to help the schools in the inner-city? No. What about the carnage on black streets with kids shooting each other? No.

What about, you know, any of the issues attached to family breakdown, 70 percent of children born out of wedlock? What about that? No.

So what we're doing here is a huge distraction. Yes, there's legitimate rage in the black community over the Zimmerman verdict, but the idea that we have to use the power that exists in this country to help people who are in need in the black community, that is an ongoing and longer story and you can't pull away from that by making Bill O'Reilly into your target and somehow beating him up. That's craziness.

Dana, when you see this kind of politicization of something -- you know, I apologize if I get emotional about it -- but it is so important we reach out to people in need, and not simply play this game, the political game.

So, I'm talking to you here, someone who knows politics, who knows communication. What is going on? Why does Dyson do that?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: First of all, can I congratulate you on was one of the best opens of THE FIVE ever. Let people know he wasn't reading that, Juan said all of that from the heart, and it was impressive and refreshing in particular.

I did think about earlier today how -- isn't it amazing how two weeks after, is it three weeks now, after Trayvon Martin trial ended that this story, you haven't heard about Trayvon Martin or any other young black kid ever since. The only people you heard talk about it are Al Sharpton, Bill O'Reilly, some -- this Dyson guy, and a few others. It is amazing how Al Sharpton is able to turn the attention to himself. I don't know of any single plan they put forward.

I admire Nancy Pelosi today. She's decided to have one of the hearings, a town hall thing, to use it as opportunity to then do something.

I would ask you, Juan, what is the most important thing that we could do, if we set aside the ridiculousness of the comment, if we do care about people, and I do, and people at this table do, what do you think is the most important thing that we could do to address the problem, the root cause?

WILLIAMS: For me, it's education. I grew up as a poor kid. If it wasn't for education, Dana, I mean, I wouldn't be anywhere.

So, in other words, I had a tiger mom and tiger mom who was a black tiger mom who said, you're going to get good grades, you're going to stay in school, you're going to work. And not only that, you're going to achieve.

It's not just hanging in there, you're going to achieve.

So, to me, if we are serious about this, we go about picking on unions, going at school reform and going at charter school, going at vouchers.

You know, that's why people say you know, they provide a lot of jobs but you know what, unless you're educating kids, unless you love the kids, you're not doing anything, you're not helping anybody! Do you understand what I'm saying or do you think I'm a nut?

ANDREA TANTAROS, CO-HOST: You and I have talked about this a lot. I would ask you, Juan, do you think that Al Sharpton actually represents the black community because I don't think that he does. And you and I have talked about this, you have written about this enough in your book, he represents a minority of the black community now, and I don't think he does them a disservice as you point out so passionately.

Instead of encouraging them to focus on positive messages like studying, and finding a job, and working hard, and being a good dad or good mom, he is empowering them to sit in their house and be angry at Bill O'Reilly.

How unproductive --

O'REILLY: Angry in America, angry in history. Yes, what does it say to the kids?

TANTAROS: For anyone.

O'REILLY: It doesn't say you can make it in America. You know, but he did the same thing, by the way, he did the same thing when Bill Cosby, a black man with a lot of credibility, said the very same thing. So, it's not just O'Reilly.

So, Bill Cosby said the same. In that case, he says, oh, it's the black middle class looking down their nose out of shame at the black poor. They don't like the fact that white people see black poor, people behaving in this dysfunctional way.

TANTAROS: Juan, do they represent the black community, though? Honestly, do they represent the views of the black community?

WILLIAMS: I think Sharpton plays a role, he calls attention when there's a problem, but no, I don't know who he -- remember, he didn't get votes when he ran for president, when he ran for mayor.

Let's look at Sharpton. Here is Sharpton.


AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Fifty years from the march on Washington and there are serious issues that need attention -- on voting rights, on equal justice, on civil rights. But Mr. O'Reilly has the problems in the African-American community figured out.

We have a long history in this country of some people exploiting differences between us for their own advantage. It's a cynical appeal to the worst instinct in our great country.


TANTAROS: Aimed at a mirror.

WILLIAMS: I was going to say, who do you think -- you know, this is what I am talking about. You know, it's an industry. So, it's a grievance industry. And I think it is very profitable for some people.

But again, the come back to the help thing, David, is it helping Al Sharpton or is it helping the people who need the help?

DAVID WEBB, GUEST CO-HOST: Look, add the term profiteers to these guys because it's helping them. I debated Michael Eric Dyson and if you want to look at a political race huckster lovechild, it's what Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton created in Michael Eric Dyson. He doesn't have an ethnic issue he won't make about race. He is dishonest. He talks about his disagrees.

So, who cares? Like Andrea asked the question for Sharpton, these guys don't represent -- they don't represent the black community. We're not a monolithic community. This country is all communities under one. But they need to separate us.

If they separate us into groups and amalgamate us for their own power and their own control, this is what Obama did. This is what Sharpton, Jackson, Dyson, insert name here, it's profiteering.

Here's what they did -- they had a hundred rallies in a hundred cities, they didn't have a hundred community meetings between neighborhood, between neighborhood watches and educate them how to interact. Why? So, they don't give a C-R-A-P about any solution, because they need to keep the argument going.

They're having this '64 argument, it's 2013. It doesn't benefit them and they're irrelevant if they don't keep us in that argument.

Look at Detroit. You talk about education, Juan. All right. Forty-seven percent illiteracy rate. Functionally illiterate people in Detroit.

WILLIAMS: It's a breakdown. It's just -- you know, Greg, this reminds me. You know, this was this whole story about, you know, Sharpton saying -- excuse me, Dyson saying about Bill Cosby, when Bill Cosby said, why do black parents want to spend all this money on sneakers? Put that money on, you know, hooked on phonics or reading or something. And he said, you know what, why do you hold them to a different standard of middle class people who spend that money on sneakers?

And I thought, is that crazy? Is he joking?

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Yes. Well, accusation of racism is the laziest and the last resort of an intellectual lightweight. Dyson has gotten away from racial hysteria to create tension and false expertise, but it's made him into an intellectual when he's not. He's not an intellectual. That is a biggest fraud of all.

By the way, I want to put out -- whites have been creating hucksters for years. So, I forgive --

WEBB: They stole hucksters.

GUTFELD: Yes. I mean, they haven't invented it, but, you know, think about what happened. If blacks got help, what would happen to the Dysons and Sharptons of the world? They would be out of a job.

If you took race out of the MSNBC lineup, all they would do is "Lockup"

marathons because that's all they have left. There's nothing left. When you take that away, it's all gone.

But I think a lot of this comes back -- we talk about education, but there's a piece of education that is destructive. A lot of this race- mongering comes from campuses. It's the African-American studies. It's the -- even gender studies. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy of hate that if you took that out, it would not exist any more.

The fact is, the same shallow pursuit that plagued black life also plagued white life. We have the same idiotic pursuit. We have a fast-paced culture filled with gadgets but no soul. The problem is, it hurts them more because we got a head start. Quayle was right.

When Quayle talked about Murphy Brown, and he says, you have a rich white lady having a single kid, that's great for her but lousy for the rest of us. The chickens have come home to roost. And Dan Quayle was right, I hate saying that, maybe I don't hate it.

But pop culture enforces ideas that destructive behaviors are cool and because they're not damaging to enforcers of the cool, it's OK.

WILLIAMS: That's the thing. You know, you stop and think about this, a third of white children now, just about a third, born out of wedlock, half the Hispanic kid, so we can focus on the blacks. But this is not just about the black community.

But instead, what you get is people encouraging this sense of victimization. You can't make it, the country is bad. So you hate on the white people. You hate on O'Reilly. You hate on the immigrant.

TANTAROS: They love to do it to women, too.

WILLIAMS: The black middle class.

TANTAROS: The left loves to do it to women, too, to keep themselves relevant.

And for Michael Eric Dyson to talk about courage when he stepped out of what, a faculty lounge onto an MSNBC set? That's not exactly what I call portrait in courage.

Greg, you brought up "Lockup" --

GUTFELD: Their highest rated show.

TANTAROS: -- over and over, that highlights the problem in this country, not just blacks but whites, the breakdown in the family, the breakdown in society, why not have a special on empowering blacks and bring in somebody like you, David, or somebody like you, Juan.

WEBB: Because it breaks their narrative. I mean, if you go in and tell them that this is an economic issue, it's an education issue, it's family or blended family units, whether it's mom and dad or mom and grandparents or whatever it is, which by the way, those are the things that help in any community, blended families, the good environment.

If you break that narrative, this is why they -- you see.


TANTAROS: The media ride shotgun on this as well.

PERINO: But I have to say I don't know who represents the African-American community. I couldn't tell you who represents the white community.


PERINO: However, I do think that President Obama's invitation of Al Sharpton to the White House is a signal and symbol that says they don't really care what we have to say here on "The Five" or on Fox News at large. The invitation was extended to Al Sharpton, to the fraudster, imagine if President Obama had done something, amazing -- invite Sharpton and O'Reilly together, at the White House.

You know what, these two people, they're out there talking about it, let's bring them together, force them to the White House. That would have been -

- that could have been a moment. Instead, it is a divisive one by inviting Sharpton.

GUTFELD: But the point is -- Sharpton should not be -- Sharpton is in the White House more than Obama is lately. The fact is, it's time to get rid of the old and bring in the new. There are people speaking truths.

I bring up Lupe Fiasco because after the Trayvon Martin, he was speaking uncomfortable truths about the nature of black on black crime. He is the new. Al Sharpton is the old.

WILLIAMS: This is what happens when somebody brings up the truth. Here is Don Lemon.


DON LEMON, CNN: I gave advice to African Americans about how, suggestions, about --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're an anchor, yes.

LEMON: One was pull up your pants, the sagging pants thing. I said stop dropping the N-word like you're saying and they or he so much. I said respect where you live, and finish school and also be an involved parent.

If you either plan for a kid, or stop having a kid on wedlock.

That's advice my mother gave me in kindergarten.


WILLIAMS: Now, that constitutes, according to critics, airing dirty laundry, that's a charge against O'Reilly, charge against Bill Cosby. How is that airing dirty laundry? To me, that's helping people.

Because, you know, those things that Don Lemon said, it's not just rhetoric. Statistically, if you do those things, almost no chance you live in poverty in America. I wrote about this enough.

TANTAROS: Yes, you did. And it goes for whites, too.

WEBB: Let me say, for everybody watching, pay attention to this. Go out in life looking like a prospect, not a suspect. Treat yourself with respect. Realize that you have to operate in this environment. It's an American problem.

If you do it and handle it from that point of view, I did it, others have done it. It's not a monolithic bloc. You can get ahead of the race, race profiteers, whatever you want to call them.

PERINO: That's what Greg has been able to do in his life.

WILLIAMS: He turned it around.

GUTFELD: If you could see what I looked like five years ago.

PERINO: You're a mess. That pink sweater.

WILLIAMS: All right.


GUTFELD: The white man.

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