This is a rush transcript from "Hannity & Colmes," October 12, 2007. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated
SEAN HANNITY, CO-HOST: Well, that shocking video is actually a back-to-school program that is being shown on television stations nationwide in the Middle East to indoctrinate its youth and glorify violent jihad.
The most infamous example of this, the very same propaganda, came this year when the television show, "Tomorrow's Pioneers", featured a Mickey Mouse look-alike teaching children violence.
But word is this is the first time that we're actually seeing children using machine guns and being instructed on how to kill.
Joining us now to discuss this, founder of TheInvestigativeProject.org, terrorism analyst, our good friend Steve Emerson.
Steve, they're instructing these kids specifically in the use of firearms and how to kill here. We have — we were arguing in the last segment. And yet, as we were discussing in the last segment, we have liberals in this country that want to deny that this is the rise of fascism in our time.
STEVE EMERSON, TERRORISM ANALYST: You know, Sean, this is the first time that I've seen, in my 20 years of looking at the videos, a 2-year-old handling an AK-47 and claiming to be a "shaheed" or martyr and wanting to be a suicide bomber.
This is pretty horrifying in terms of the lessons that it permeates for the rest of Palestinian and Middle Eastern society. And the fact is that you can call this anything you want, but it is Islamic fascism in the same way that, you know, Italian fascism and German Nazism weren't slurs on Germans or Italians. They simply describe the phenomenon of what people believed in those countries.
HANNITY: Is it any different than the indoctrination, especially a lot of this is focused on Israeli aggression, or as you point out, martyrdom or the pursuit of martyrdom in the name of God and religion here.
Is it any different in your mind, in your estimation, than say, the Nazi youth movement of Hitler?
EMERSON: No, because the same essence, the same, the end objective is the same, which is the ultimate demonization of Jews and as enemies so they can be killed. That's what these lessons do.
That's what these television programs do. They demonize the Jews or Christians so that they make it acceptable to kill them. That's exactly what the Germans did.
ALAN COLMES, CO-HOST: Steve, aren't you demonizing Islam? Aren't you — when you use words like "Islamofascism," it conflates an entire religion with fascism. And that's demonization and it offends an entire religion.
EMERSON: Alan, what term would you use?
COLMES: I would call it fascism, but I wouldn't link it to a religion, as you choose to do. And just as fascism...
EMERSON: What makes it different than Italian fascism or German fascism?
COLMES: You're indicting an entire religion. It doesn't represent the entire religion, as opposed to — as opposed to...
EMERSON: When they had the IRA battles, they referred to Protestant extremists and Catholic extremists. They didn't indict everybody.
COLMES: I object to that term. I think...
EMERSON: Are you listening?
COLMES: I'm telling you my opinion is — and we obviously disagree — and there are many who happen to agree with me that this is extremely insulting to an entire religion and that you can call it fascism if you want. You want to talk about specific people who do heinous deeds. Nobody says this is good, what we're seeing.
EMERSON: Alan — Alan, you know what? Let's...
COLMES: ...but you want to extrapolate to an entire religion.
EMERSON: Alan, let's take the term away, Islamofascism. Let's use the word Islamic militant or Islamic extremism. Does that offend me?
COLMES: Leave religion out of it. It is offensive. Because you want to...
EMERSON: It is offensive?
COLMES: ... define a religion by attaching a word to it that defines that religion.
EMERSON: Does the term Islamic jihad offend you?
COLMES: You're using offensive terminology because you are defining a religion in that way.
EMERSON: Wait. That's the term of the group — Alan, that's the term of a group that describes itself as "Islamic Jihad." We caught you, Alan. That's not something that we call them.
COLMES: Fine. It is offensive, and you are indicting an entire religion by the terminology you use. We've got to take a break.
EMERSON: Alan...
COLMES: Yes.
EMERSON: Islamic Jihad calls itself Islamic Jihad. They are the ones defining the religion. Not us!
COLMES: All right. Good. Let them do it.
EMERSON: Any you're telling me that we are the guilty ones?
COLMES: It's not for you to define their religion. We're going to talk more.
EMERSON: I'm only using their term.
COLMES: You — I don't think you have the right to do that. I don't think that's your call.
EMERSON: I don't have the right to use their term?
COLMES: Because it's their religion, not yours. And you're trying to define their religion your way. But we're going to have more...
EMERSON: You're an apologist, Alan.
COLMES: We've got to take a break.
EMERSON: You're an apologist for Islamic extremism, period.
COLMES: We will have — call me all the names you want, Steve. And that says more about you than about me.
More on the shocking video of Hamas conducting terror training with toddlers, and more frightening images coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ALAN COLMES, CO-HOST: We now continue with terrorism analyst Steve Emerson.
The images we're showing, Steve, doesn't it show the way to deal with this — and we don't deny that it is happening. So there's no argument there, but shouldn't we be dealing with this not with guns, not with munitions, not with military action, but with books, not bombs? With better education, not war?
EMERSON: Alan, it would be great, but we're not the ones controlling their behavior. If they would engage in books and educational moderation, that would be great, but they're the ones engaging in use of "shaheed", martyrdom, suicide bombing, AK-47s for 2- year-olds.
If you want to make sure that there's moderation, let them engage in it. By the way, Alan, I don't see you getting upset when I hear the term you hear the term Hindu extremist, Protestant extremist, Jewish extremist. It is only when you use the word Islamic extremists.
COLMES: You want to define an entire movement as Islamofascism. I don't want to go back to that. But I want to move the conversation forward, though, and talk about, for example, our own NIE reports, 16 intelligence agencies, concluded that, for example, the Iraq conflict has become the cause celebre for jihadists. And the best we can do — this war has encouraged others and fueled the kind of fascism you're talking about.
Shouldn't we — and I go back to books, not bombs. That's where we could be putting our energies, much more positively than one military one.
EMERSON: We're not the ones that are doing the bombing, Alan. They are. And unless they want to read the books, we can't force them to it.
The fact is, Alan, they are the ones committing fascist acts. They're the ones committing suicide bombing.
SEAN HANNITY, CO-HOST: Let me ask Steve.
EMERSON: And they did it before we went in to Iraq. They did in 1993. They did it in 1998. They did it in 1999.
HANNITY: Steve, let's look at the words, though.
EMERSON: In 2001.
HANNITY: Steve, "God will make you a martyr," a religious term. The word jihad, holy war. "God will reward you with virgins," you know, as they strap bombs on their own children.
The religious terms, the religious connections from those who have perverted the religion and use religion, their twisted version of Islam, to move this fascist movement.
So the definition is appropriate. They are fascists. They're strapping bombs on their own kids. They think they're doing God's will, and God's waiting to reward them. So there is — that is the proper definition.
EMERSON: Of course it is, Alan.
HANNITY: Sean...
And you know what? The groups in the United States like CAIR and other groups, flip the inversion. They say it's — the use of the term Islamofacism, Islamic terrorism, Islamic extremism, is racist.
And therefore, they try to intimidate anyone who talks about the extremist agenda of radical Islam. I think that's obscene!
HANNITY: All right. I — thanks very much for being with us. Appreciate it, Steve. We'll talk again soon.
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