This is a partial transcript from On the Record with Greta Van Susteren, January 6, 2004.
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GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Our so-called ally Pakistan is denying reports it gave Libya high-tech nuclear technology. The alleged deal took place after Pakistan pledged its cooperation in the war on terror after 9/11. Is Libya just the beginning?
Joining us from Berlin is Fox News Foreign Affairs Analyst Mansoor Ijaz. And in Washington is national security reporter Bill Gertz of The Washington Times.
Well, Mansoor, Pakistan denies giving this technology and denies giving it after promising to us that it would join us in our war on terror. Is Pakistan telling us the truth?
MANSOOR IJAZ, FOX NEWS FOREIGN AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Greta, I think what they're doing is they're parsing words because they can certainly deny it from an official government standpoint.
I don't think the government's policy was to give any of this stuff away. But it's incomprehensible to anyone who knows what's really going on in this case that nuclear scientists did not ensure that certain channels were opened up, that, you know, certain officials or people who are ex-officials in the government didn't enable certain types of technology, for example, the centrifuge technology that is used in many of these things in nuclear programs that have been in Iran and North Korea and so forth.
So I think that, in that sense, they're parsing words a little bit.
But there's no question that Pakistan's official apparatus and unofficial government apparatus in terms of how they run these nuclear programs has been involved in the transfer of real technology and know-how for a very, very long time, and, in my judgment, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
In fact, I can tell you for sure I know that there are other countries that are, in fact, involved and that these countries have to now come clean. The Pakistanis have to come clean about where they put the stuff and make sure that we know what they're doing.
VAN SUSTEREN: Bill, the Bush administration must be, at least I assume, enraged by this information after Pakistan's Musharraf himself -- and maybe Musharraf knows nothing about this transfer of technology -- but after promising us and after 9/11 if they're still dealing in this.
BILL GERTZ, THE WASHINGTON TIMES: Well, first of all, Greta, all of the big proliferaters, governments, others lie about what they're doing. That's been the case with North Korea, with Iran, with Pakistan, and with Libya.
VAN SUSTEREN: But do they then turn around and stand and say that they're friends of ours and allies and we're going to stand tall with you on the war against terrorism?
GERTZ: Well, in the case of Pakistan, it's a very difficult call. They are the front line right now. They were the front line in the war on Afghanistan. They're now another key front line state. Musharraf has thrown in with the U.S. in going after the terrorists.
But that doesn't mean that he's in control, that doesn't mean that he controls his intelligence service, and it certainly doesn't mean he controls these industry that works with the nuclear things, specifically AQ Khan, who is the father of the Pakistani nuclear bomb.
VAN SUSTEREN: Who's been seen in North Korea, been seen in Iran, and seen many places supposedly with a lot of information about nuclear technology.
GERTZ: Right. The common thread through all of these proliferation problems is the centrifuge technology.
You might remember that, back in the '90s, the Chinese helped the Pakistanis develop centrifuges. They were based on a design that was stolen from western Europe called the Urenco centrifuge, and that's the same design that's showing up in Libya, and it's the same design that they believe is in Iran, and they also believe that when they finally get to find out about North Korea's centrifuge program that it's going to be the same Pakistani version of the western European centrifuge.
VAN SUSTEREN: Mansoor, if President Musharraf doesn't know about this or had no part in it or can't control his scientists, of what value is he in the war on terror, if he's sort of got a rogue scientist freelancing, selling their technology?
IJAZ: That's a good question. I mean I think the bottom line is that if he's got any guts and if he's really smart at this moment where Pakistan has now been found out -- and the interesting thing here is that Pakistan wasn't found out by its own recourse.
This was a bunch of people that the Pakistani scientists helped, the countries, that decided to out Pakistan, to tell on them in a sense because they brought, you know, the inspectors in and said here is what our uranium centrifuges look like.
In this sense, I think what President Musharraf has to do, if he's smart, is not only prosecute, even if its Dr. AQ Kahn that has to be prosecuted in Pakistan, you know, for a violation of laws, for exporting nuclear technology, he has to enable that process to go forward and show that transparently Pakistan is dealing with these rogue scientists that are internal.
The second thing that he's got to do -- and I think the Bush administration really has an enormous responsibility now to ensure that Pakistan gets vaults, sensors, alarms, you know, the kinds of things that a Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty signatory would have.
Pakistan now needs to have that, even if it's only for their internal use, to make sure that somebody, if it's Musharraf or whoever is responsible, is able to actually track where all of their nuclear materials are, where their scientists are going, what they're up to.
Somebody's got to now have independent accountability, and Musharraf has to stand up and be our ally that way.
VAN SUSTEREN: Bill, we have only 30 seconds left, but AQ Khan is like a god in Afghanistan. Can Musharraf really control him?
GERTZ: Well, no, he is a big figure, and there are really two motivations behind the spread of this nuclear technology. One is the kind of Islamist solidarity, the idea that Pakistan would come put Saudi Arabia under a nuclear umbrella.
The case of North Korea -- it's much more practical -- the Pakistanis traded nuclear technology for missile technology.
VAN SUSTEREN: And all very dangerous.
Gentlemen, thank you both very much.
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