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Hannity vs. Moore on 'Capitalism: A Love Story'

This is a rush transcript from "Hannity," October 6, 2009. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "CAPITALISM: A LOVE STORY")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll reveal what happens when Wall Street tanks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stock markets crashed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bankruptcy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Foreclosure.

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: A global meltdown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the government fails.

MICHAEL MOORE, DIRECTOR, "CAPITALISM: A LOVE STORY": By spending just a few million dollars to buy Congress, Wall Street was given billions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The motion is adopted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's got to be some kind of a rebellion between the people that have nothing and the people that's got it all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything was being handled by the Treasury secretary from Goldman Sachs. They had Congress right where they wanted them. This was almost like an intelligence operation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is straight up capitalism. Boom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, HOST: All right, those were a few scenes from Michael Moore's new movie, "Capitalism: A Love Story." Now the movie tells a dark story about the capitalist economic system and urges Americans to rise up and fight against it. And believe it or not the writer, producer, director of that film, the one and only, Michael Moore — how many years has it been?

Video: Watch part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

MOORE: It's been a while.

HANNITY: It's been a while.

MOORE: A while. Yes. Thank you for having me here.

HANNITY: Well, you're very welcome. Thanks for being here. We appreciate it. As a matter of fact, the last time I interviewed you, we had a bet.

MOORE: Right, yes.

HANNITY: And I won the bet. The bet was...

MOORE: You won the bet. Actually, it wasn't the last time. This was on your radio show.

HANNITY: Right.

MOORE: Back in 2002. And I just happened to be on your show there when Matt Drudge texted you on the computer.

HANNITY: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

Did I show you that? I told you.

MOORE: No, I remember because — yeah, you were sitting behind the thing, and he says, "Oh, I'm getting a message from Matt Drudge." I said, "What's he saying?" He said, "Your book just went to number one on the bestseller list."

HANNITY: I remember that.

MOORE: And I said, geez, this is happening on your show, this special moment.

HANNITY: See, you have fond memories of me in your past. So the bet was...

MOORE: I gave you credit. I figured, you know, in the hour we were on, the book had gone from nothing to number one, so thank you for that, by the way. But.

(LAUGHTER)

HANNITY: You have just ruined my credibility.

MOORE: No.

HANNITY: You just destroyed my show.

MOORE: But then — then we got talking, and I said that, you know, George W. Bush, he will either have to resign or he'll be impeached by the end of his term. And you said, "No way, that's not going to happen." And I said, "OK, bet." And then we had a bet where if I won the bet, you would have to wear a button on the show one night that said, "I Love Hillary."

HANNITY: Thank God I won, thank God.

MOORE: And if you won and I lost, I would have to stand in front of the White House with a sign that said, "Sean Hannity was right."

HANNITY: And we...

MOORE: So — yes, well, we have a version — there I am, right there.

(LAUGHTER)

HANNITY: Now in fairness, I think everybody at home can figure this - - you didn't exactly do it at the White House.

MOORE: Well, I did it on your set here. But I.

(LAUGHTER)

I mean, look, how about this? It was hard enough to walk through the Upper West Side of Manhattan tonight holding that sign.

HANNITY: You were not holding that sign where people could see it.

MOORE: Yes, I had to bring the sign here.

HANNITY: Well...

MOORE: And people were stopping me going, "What are you doing with that sign?" I said, "Well, I lost a bet." I mean, I'm a man of my word, and there you go.

HANNITY: And I appreciate — but by the end of tonight's show, we'll have another bet. All right, let me go — these are serious issues that you raise in your film, OK?

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: And by the way, I went in late, I had a hat, I had a disguise. I didn't want people to see me sneaking in, and I snuck out early, OK.

MOORE: Good. So you bought a ticket for "Zombieland" and then snuck into the other theater.

HANNITY: Well, kind of like that, yeah, something like that.

(LAUGHTER)

MOORE: Right.

HANNITY: And I want a refund before you leave here tonight.

(LAUGHTER)

HANNITY: All right. But in all seriousness, you're a talented moviemaker, you have a left-wing point of view, you don't apologize for it. I'm going to give you credit for that.

MOORE: Right.

HANNITY: Because I think you're an unapologetic socialist, however you want to describe yourself. Fair?

MOORE: Christian.

HANNITY: I'm a Christian.

MOORE: Yeah, well...

HANNITY: But we have different views on the economic system.

MOORE: Well, no, but I believe in what Jesus said that...

HANNITY: So do I.

MOORE: You — well, are you Catholic?

HANNITY: I'm Catholic.

MOORE: Really? Did you go to mass on Sunday?

HANNITY: Every Sunday. I went to...

(CROSSTALK)

MOORE: You went to mass this past Sunday?

HANNITY: I did.

MOORE: What was the sermon about? Do you remember the Gospel?

HANNITY: It was about Michael Moore and capitalism.

MOORE: No, no, come on. You didn't go! You didn't go!

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: I go every Sunday, I go every Sunday.

MOORE: Well, so, do you remember the Gospel this past Sunday?

HANNITY: I don't remember the Gospel this past Sunday.

MOORE: It was just two days ago.

HANNITY: I don't remember. I went Saturday...

MOORE: You're not paying attention.

HANNITY: I went Saturday night.

MOORE: You went Saturday...

(LAUGHTER)

HANNITY: I hate to say it. I got there about as late as I went to your movie, so...

MOORE: Right, right.

(LAUGHTER)

Well, you know, Jesus was very clear about the rich man is going to have a very hard time getting...

HANNITY: The eye of the needle, that's right.

MOORE: Yeah, and that the first will be last, and the last will be first.

HANNITY: Well, you're rich, so you're going to be last.

MOORE: And we will be — well, if I don't do good with what blessings I've received on this earth, that's absolutely right. So — but we're going to be judged, you would agree with us, by how we treat the least among us.

HANNITY: I totally agree.

MOORE: Right, so...

HANNITY: I'm very generous, as my wife is, with charity. And I think anybody that's been blessed — and this gets to the heart of, I guess, the debate we're going to have here tonight.

MOORE: Yes, OK.

HANNITY: And I want to set this up. Look, Fortune magazine — and I don't know what your net worth is — you're a multi-millionaire, correct?

MOORE: I would say that — I wouldn't say that. I would say that, I mean, you count what the value of my — I've got a house in Michigan, and I've got an apartment here in New York, so...

HANNITY: Michael, you're a multi-millionaire.

MOORE: So those are worth a lot of money. Yes.

HANNITY: OK, you're a — you've traveled around. I know for a fact you have chartered Gulfstream 5s, the most expensive private jet in the sky.

MOORE: No. I have never chartered a jet...

HANNITY: You've never chartered a jet in your life?

MOORE: I've never paid a dime for a jet. Are you kidding me?

HANNITY: You've never been in a private jet?

MOORE: The studio, as you know, they — when they send you out on a tour, they sometimes will send you around in a jet...

HANNITY: Right, because I was at a tarmac, and somebody pointed out and said, "That's Michael Moore's jet" one night. But I tried to wait for you.

(CROSSTALK)

MOORE: You know, because I've got a jet on every tarmac in America.

HANNITY: No, no, they didn't say it was yours, but you were chartering — but you're a multi, multi-millionaire. Let me go over the numbers.

MOORE: I'm not a multi, multi-millionaire. I have done well, obviously. Three of the top six documentaries of all time, grossing, are made by me.

HANNITY: Absolutely. Three hundred million according to Fortune magazine.

MOORE: Well, not for me. The studio gets that.

HANNITY: The gross.

MOORE: Yes, yes.

HANNITY: OK, gross. All right, $200 million alone for "Fahrenheit 9/11."

MOORE: Yeah, not for me, yes.

HANNITY: Not all for you.

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: According to reports, you got $21 million from Disney to direct.

MOORE: Let's just establish that I do well. So what's your point?

HANNITY: All right, fair enough. But my point is this, Michael, because I don't have a problem — you seem to want to trash capitalism in this movie.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: It's total trashing of it. And you do bring up religious quotes, and you do go to religious figures in the movie — see, I did go to see it — and, you know, you show video in the movie, et cetera, et cetera, about families that I have compassion for in this movie.

Here's my point. If you really believe this and you yourself own millions of dollars worth of property, and you make millions of dollars...

MOORE: I have a house, yes.

HANNITY: If you cashed out.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: If you cashed out, you'd be worth millions. You don't even want to admit it.

MOORE: No, I just admitted it. I just said that.

HANNITY: Millions, you're a millionaire.

MOORE: I didn't. I said that I have a house in Michigan and I have an apartment here. But you're so stuck on this. I know it upsets you and other...

HANNITY: It doesn't.

MOORE: Why do you keep bringing it up?

HANNITY: Because my point is that if you — the capitalist system allowed you to get here.

MOORE: No, it didn't.

HANNITY: Yes, it did.

MOORE: You think the capitalist system just opened the door up for me and allowed me to do this.

HANNITY: Well, let me give you an example. You — if you went to Cuba — and we'll get into this in a minute.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: Do you think Fidel Castro would allow you to produce a movie and millions of dollars trashing his system?

MOORE: Well, I don't know, that's a good question.

HANNITY: You'd be killed.

MOORE: Oh, I don't think so. Oh, come on. Are you still following that line?

HANNITY: It's not a line. I had a friend of mine whose family was killed by Castro when he came to power.

MOORE: When he came — oh, so what are we now, 40 years ago?

HANNITY: OK, 40 years ago, he's still a murderer.

MOORE: Yes. What about the murder that's been done in our name in the last decade?

HANNITY: You're getting diverted here.

MOORE: What do you mean diverted? That's what you don't want to talk about, that's the real issue, isn't it?

HANNITY: Not really.

MOORE: What's been done in our name, in our Christian name, to Iraq, in Afghanistan, these other places.

HANNITY: Michael, did you read the 9/11 Commission Report?

MOORE: Well, of course, I did.

HANNITY: OK. It says.

MOORE: I made a movie called "Fahrenheit 9/11."

HANNITY: It says in the report they were at war with us. We weren't...

MOORE: Who's they?

HANNITY: They — the terrorists that attacked the World Trade Center.

MOORE: The terrorists are criminal thugs. They're not a nation...

HANNITY: They're not criminals, they're warriors. They're at war with us, the 9/11 Commission Report said.

MOORE: They're not warriors. You've seen the footage of them climbing on the monkey bars and, you know, you're making them out to be such a big thing, like they're equal to us. Are you kidding me? Only a wuss would be afraid of that. These are criminals...

HANNITY: Criminals.

MOORE: ... who committed a mass murder of 3,000 people, and they should have been brought to justice by now. Why haven't they, Sean, why haven't they?

• Great American Blog: Sound off on the debate!

HANNITY: Well, you know, well, because it's not as simple as you just sitting here in the studio...

MOORE: Oh, really?

HANNITY: ... and saying, "Well, why weren't they brought to justice?" I want them brought to justice.

(CROSSTALK)

MOORE: Why have we taken now eight plus years to...

HANNITY: I took the 9/11 Commission Report at its word, and when it said that they were at war with us, that's a war. You know, when they're dedicated...

MOORE: No.

HANNITY: Wait a minute. If they ever get the bomb...

(LAUGHTER)

HANNITY: Well, you know, Michael. Listen, you know, Pol Pot, the Killing Fields, Soviet gulags...

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: ... and Soviet Russia, 30 million people. I wrote a whole book, "Deliver Us from Evil," I don't know if you've ever read it. You know, Nazi Germany.

MOORE: Right.

HANNITY: You know, you can have human atrocity and mass murder in our lifetime.

MOORE: Absolutely, absolutely. These are horrible, horrible things that have happened. So your point is?

HANNITY: My point is obvious. So if we don't treat it as a war...

MOORE: Why then we — in this great country, this great, free country, this great democracy, why did we invade another country that did nothing to us...

HANNITY: It's not as simple as that.

MOORE: ... that wasn't a threat.

HANNITY: It's a simplistic — you're giving a simplistic analysis.

MOORE: Well, you know there weren't weapons of mass destruction there.

HANNITY: Well, none that we saw, none that we found.

MOORE: Oh, Sean, no, come on.

HANNITY: Well, wait a minute. Every.

MOORE: You're not into conspiracy theories, are you?

HANNITY: No, I'm not, but I do believe this. If we got it wrong, Bill Clinton got it wrong. Hillary Clinton got it wrong.

MOORE: Yes, Bill Clinton got a lot wrong.

HANNITY: The Israelis got it wrong.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: The — the Soviets got it wrong. Every major power got it wrong.

MOORE: Actually, by the time — as you know, most of those countries were trying to warn us, and even our own intelligence people were trying to tell us that we were going down the wrong road. But they were told to say this, to say that. And you know, this is all going to come out, you know. Eventually, there will...

HANNITY: When?

MOORE: Soon, I hope. I hope there'll be trials within the Obama administration. I hope the Justice Department...

HANNITY: You really want to go down that road?

MOORE: Are you kidding? If we don't go down that road, we will go down the road again of invading another country in the future if we don't...

HANNITY: This is an old debate.

MOORE: ... take care of the people that caused this horrible, horrible crime in our name.

HANNITY: I think you've got to defeat them. That's the difference between you and me...

MOORE: Defeat who?

HANNITY: ... is — defeat the people that plot...

MOORE: The people...

HANNITY: The people that plot.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: For example, the Khobar Towers, the first Trade Center bombings.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: The embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania.

MOORE: Yes. The first Trade Center bombing...

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: OK. The USS Cole.

MOORE: ... we didn't treat them like they were some nation...

HANNITY: We didn't.

MOORE: ... that we had to go send an army after. We just caught the bastards.

HANNITY: That's my point.

MOORE: And we put them in prison.

HANNITY: It emboldened them, though, so they felt like they were strong enough to come back. They did hijack all those airplanes, Michael.

MOORE: How many of them are there, by the way?

HANNITY: You know, we don't know.

MOORE: What do you think?

HANNITY: But I — you know what, I don't know. It's a very interesting question...

MOORE: We're the United States of America, man.

(CROSSTALK)

MOORE: Come on.

HANNITY: Do you want to gut our military?

MOORE: You're afraid of a few hundred guys on monkey bars?

HANNITY: No, millions.

MOORE: Millions?

HANNITY: Millions that buy into Islamic fanaticism.

MOORE: Millions who are going to attack us.

HANNITY: I believe there's millions of people that believe there's virgins in heaven if they commit a suicide bombing.

MOORE: Well, listen, all religions have their fanatics, wouldn't you agree with that?

HANNITY: Some, not all, but most, probably.

MOORE: Including ours?

HANNITY: Are you one?

MOORE: I'm a religious fanatic? Yes, I am, actually. I believe that when Jesus said that you're to love your neighbor...

HANNITY: As yourself.

MOORE: ... as yourself, you're to love your enemy. Do you love your enemy?

HANNITY: I don't hate you, by the way.

MOORE: Do you love your enemy, though?

HANNITY: Yes, I do.

MOORE: You do?

HANNITY: I do.

MOORE: So you love Al Qaeda, then.

HANNITY: No, I don't love them. I love them in the sense that I want to destroy them.

MOORE: I don't think that's the love Jesus was talking about.

(LAUGHTER)

HANNITY: I want them to see — they want to go see Allah, I'm all in favor of giving them a first class ticket if — if they don't respect human life and dignity.

MOORE: How do you think Jesus would handle this?

HANNITY: You know, it's an interesting question.

MOORE: How do you think he'd handle this?

HANNITY: You know, Jesus would have the ability to change people's hearts. I don't have his powers. I wish I did.

MOORE: You're on TV every night at 9 o'clock.

HANNITY: Oh, I have all that power, Michael.

MOORE: Well, I mean, you are on TV every night at 9 o'clock.

HANNITY: And you watch every night, I hope.

MOORE: Well, not every night, but I do watch.

HANNITY: All right.

MOORE: And you haven't changed my heart.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HANNITY: And coming up, my interview with Michael Moore continues including his thoughts on Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and much, much more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HANNITY: And welcome back to "Hannity." Here now is more of my exclusive interview with filmmaker Michael Moore.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

If you have all these millions, and you have a lot of — you're an influential Hollywood guy, seriously.

MOORE: Yes, yes, right.

HANNITY: And you have all these millions.

MOORE: Lots of power out there.

HANNITY: Well, wait a minute.

MOORE: Are you serious? Do you really think I'm an influential Hollywood guy?

HANNITY: Yes.

MOORE: Really? You really believe that?

HANNITY: I— I never put together movies that net $300 million.

MOORE: So you think I have some kind of — I'm pulling some kind of strings out there in Hollywood?

HANNITY: No, but you have the ability.

MOORE: Is this another — is this another conspiracy theory you believe in?

HANNITY: I'm not a —

(LAUGHTER)

HANNITY: Listen, if you got $300 million in ticket sales.

MOORE: Sean, stop that. I don't have that.

(LAUGHTER)

HANNITY: No. Ticket sales. I'm not saying it's yours.

MOORE: Yes. Oh I see, oh, I see. So yes, they like me because I —

HANNITY: You're powerful.

MOORE: I make them money.

HANNITY: You make them money.

MOORE: OK. So yes.

HANNITY: You make yourself money in the process.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: So here's my question. If you really believe this lecture you're giving me on religion.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: And you have all this money. And you have other rich, influential friends that perhaps agree with you.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: And you don't like capitalism.

MOORE: Mm-hmm.

HANNITY: When I saw those people in your movie being evicted, and it — I didn't like it either, but we have a different view.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: Why don't you just take your money and donate? Why don't you start an organization to help people in that situation?

MOORE: Actually for my very first.

HANNITY: And I donate.

MOORE: For my very first movie, "Roger and Me," I made it as part of my deal with Warner Brothers that the four people that were evicted in that film, that Warner Brothers would house — would pay their mortgage or their rent for the next two years to give them a chance to get on their feet. In this movie, the man from Peoria, Illinois.

HANNITY: Right.

MOORE: Who I believe his home was stolen from him by Citibank, I have retained an attorney for him and I am paying for all this.

HANNITY: Which I think is great.

MOORE: I'm going to court to get his home back for him.

HANNITY: That's good stuff.

MOORE: But that's just me, one person, doing this. Right now, Sean, right now, as people are watching us, there — do you realize there's a foreclosure filing in this country...

HANNITY: Sure, it's huge.

MOORE: ... once every seven and a half seconds?

HANNITY: I don't know if that's exactly right.

MOORE: No, that's the statistics.

HANNITY: But we're in a bad position. We really are.

MOORE: Millions of people are losing their homes.

HANNITY: I agree with you.

MOORE: Millions have lost their jobs. You know, this is — we're in a really bad situation. And Obama has inherited this catastrophe.

HANNITY: Obama's making it worse.

MOORE: Yes. Well.

HANNITY: Obama is — and by the way, you complain about the TARP funds in your movie? He voted for it. By the way, do you have an altar at your house, worshipping Obama?

(LAUGHTER)

HANNITY: Because you worshipped him in this movie.

MOORE: That would be against the Second Commandment, wouldn't it?

HANNITY: OK.

MOORE: Right.

HANNITY: But if somebody buys...

MOORE: Are you into that sort of thing?

HANNITY: I think it's the first one. The First Commandment.

MOORE: What altar do you have at your house?

HANNITY: I don't...

MOORE: To the dollar bill or...

HANNITY: To Jesus.

MOORE: To Ronald Reagan, maybe?

HANNITY: I do like Reagan. He was one of the greatest presidents —

MOORE: How many candles do you light each night to Ronald Reagan?

HANNITY: None. None. But if somebody — if somebody buys a house they can't afford.

MOORE: Oh, yes, you think that's the problem?

HANNITY: Yes, I do.

MOORE: Really? Yes. You think that this — the greatest collapse that we've had certainly since the Great Depression was caused by a bunch of poor people with no assets? No money.

HANNITY: No, no, it's not simplistic. You're overstating it.

MOORE: OK.

HANNITY: Let me...

MOORE: Well, who do you think — who do you think caused this collapse?

HANNITY: The subprime mortgage crisis, and I wish you would've gotten into this in your movie because there were three things that you did in the movie that I liked. You went after Chris Dodd and friends of Angelo. Tim Geithner you went after. In that sense, I give you a lot of props. But you missed a...

MOORE: So if I go after Democrats, that's OK.

HANNITY: No, it wasn't that.

MOORE: How about we — how about...

HANNITY: Let me give you an example.

MOORE: Why not just go after the man who caused the problem?

HANNITY: Let me answer the question.

MOORE: Why just go after — you liked that, what about the Republicans?

HANNITY: The subprime mortgage crisis was caused by the Community Investment Act first enacted by Jimmy Carter. Now here's the point on the — on the Community Investment Act. They forced banks — they forced financial institutions by law to lower their standards where people could get mortgages for homes that they could not afford, Michael.

And people took the banks up on it. They took the money. They bought homes. So my question to you is, if you buy a home and you can't pay it back, who should pay the bill?

MOORE: Well, first of all, let me just correct what you said. If that actually — if you believe that's the cause of it.

HANNITY: Absolutely the cause.

MOORE: During the Carter administration, why didn't the crash happen back in 1978?

HANNITY: No, because — because when he started it, it got doubled down with — in the Clinton years, the Republicans are on tape.

MOORE: What happened during those 12 Reagan-Bush years?

HANNITY: I'm explaining it to you.

MOORE: OK.

HANNITY: The Republicans had been warning, including the Bush years.

MOORE: Warning? Warning?

HANNITY: I have videotape of...

MOORE: They created the deregulation. They got rid of the rules.

HANNITY: No, that's not the problem.

MOORE: They got rid of the rules, and Clinton followed up and continued to get rid of more rules. And when Bush the second came in, he really smoked them. He got rid of everything, but the banks and the financial institutions could get away with murder.

HANNITY: No.

MOORE: And you know that's the truth.

HANNITY: No, Bush tried to prevent Fannie and Freddie...

MOORE: They're all involved.

HANNITY: ... from crashing in the subprime crisis. He — on multiple times. Let me give you an example. This was the point I was getting to. Franklin Raines, friend of Obama. Jim Johnson, friends of Obama. You know, if you look at Freddie and Fannie.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: Jim Johnson or Franklin Raines, one of them made $90 million in six years.

MOORE: Mm-hmm.

HANNITY: Why wasn't that in the movie?

MOORE: Well, he — Johnson is in there.

HANNITY: No, no. The $90 million in six years, I didn't hear it in the movie.

MOORE: Not that particular, but I do put them — the Fannie Mae guys in there. No, they're in there. It's in the movie.

HANNITY: It wasn't a main portion of the movie.

MOORE: Well, because there's so many bad guys, you can't cover them all. But you know that that — it was in the movie.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HANNITY: And more of my interview with Michael Moore right after a short break. Now we're going to go head to head on the financial crisis.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HANNITY: And we continue now with more of my exclusive interview with filmmaker, Michael Moore.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MOORE: You do support law enforcement, right? I mean you...

HANNITY: Is this a trick question?

MOORE: No, I'm just — I'm assuming, right?

HANNITY: Of course.

MOORE: And so the FBI, good guys, right? FBI?

HANNITY: Most of them, yes.

MOORE: Most of them.

HANNITY: There are some bad eggs occasionally.

MOORE: Yes, but as an institution.

HANNITY: As an institution, sure.

MOORE: OK. Well, they've said that this mortgage crisis, this mortgage fraud that's been perpetrated has not been because of the subprime borrowers, the people that are poor or working class. It's been caused by the banks. This is their statistic now, Sean. Eighty percent of the mortgage fraud has been caused by the banks and the lending institutions. Eighty percent.

HANNITY: Everybody got greedy. I'm not going to disagree.

MOORE: Everybody. Wait a minute.

HANNITY: No, no.

MOORE: Eighty percent.

HANNITY: But the government.

MOORE: Eighty percent.

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: I don't necessarily know where the FBI got into the business of figuring out who did this.

MOORE: Well, then, you'll have a whole white-collar fraud unit which Bush W. depleted that unit and moved them out of white collar crime.

HANNITY: But you're not answering my question.

MOORE: ... during the worst white-collar crime that was going on, crime wave.

HANNITY: Is there no responsibility at all from the borrower? If they buy a house that they can't afford, who do you want to pay for the house that they decided to buy? They signed their name. Who should pay for that house if they can't afford it? Instead of evicting them?

MOORE: First of all, a lot of them were swindled and they were lied to. These contracts with the balloon payments. If you read — if I brought one of these in here right now, you couldn't even find...

HANNITY: Do you sign a contract without reading it?

MOORE: I think we often — a lot of us do.

HANNITY: I don't.

MOORE: You don't?

HANNITY: No, I read it.

MOORE: Do you have a mortgage?

HANNITY: I have read every page.

MOORE: You read the — you read the 50 pages.

HANNITY: I'm a loser.

MOORE: No, I'm impressed. I'm — have you read your health care contract with FOX?

HANNITY: Uh, that I didn't care about but I have...

MOORE: OK, why? Because you're not going to get sick? You better read it, buddy. Because —

(LAUGHTER)

Because when you get sick, there's a clause in there somewhere where they might not sign for you.

HANNITY: If you sign a movie contract, do you read your movie contract?

MOORE: Yes. I read the movie contract. Yes, of course I do.

HANNITY: I have a contract for radio/TV.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: I've read every page of it.

MOORE: Yes, yes.

HANNITY: So why — so my point is, I do feel sorry for them, Michael. I really do. And if you wanted to start something.

MOORE: You feel sorry for the people that have been swindled.

HANNITY: No — I feel sorry for people that in some cases perhaps there's some truth to it, but they also have a responsibility.

MOORE: Uh-huh.

HANNITY: Think about this.

MOORE: Yes.

HANNITY: If you put your name on the dotted line in a legal document, don't you bear responsibility?

MOORE: These people have been deceived and they've been exploited. You know, this is like — this is like.

HANNITY: No responsibility at all for them?

MOORE: No, this is like asking a woman how short was your skirt after she's been raped.

HANNITY: Aw, that's not. Come on, Michael.

MOORE: That's not, that's not — you wouldn't — you wouldn't blame the victim for that. Why were you walking on that side a town?

HANNITY: So they shouldn't — if there were balloon payments they shouldn't have read it? They shouldn't have hired a lawyer to read it for them?

MOORE: A poor person?

HANNITY: You're not that poor if you're buying a house, Michael!

MOORE: You don't understand what's going on here. This is...

HANNITY: I was poor in my life. I lived in apartments. I couldn't even afford to pay my rent. And I would paint the apartments for my landlord.

MOORE: Sean, there have always been people who have lived beyond their means. We all know who they are. And there's probably one in every one of our families, or friends, or neighbors or whatever.

HANNITY: So if they lose their house...

MOORE: No, but they've never caused a crash of this proportion before. That's because they can't. They don't have the assets and the money to be able to cause the crash that was caused by the people downtown here who were moving money around, taking bets out on money, derivatives, credit defaults, swaps insurance on the debt, then a bet on the insurance. That's why we ended up in the situation here.

HANNITY: It's not. I disagree.

MOORE: You don't?

HANNITY: No. It's...

MOORE: Everyone acknowledges that's how we got here.

HANNITY: No, not everyone. When the government...

MOORE: Who are you talking to?

HANNITY: When the government dictated that the financial institutions and banks had to lower their standards or else they would have — be at risk of punishment from the government, then people who normally wouldn't get loans were taking loans that they couldn't afford to pay back.

MOORE: And you think that's what caused this crash?

HANNITY: That's a big part of it, yes.

MOORE: Yes, a big part of it.

HANNITY: A very big part of it.

MOORE: FBI says maybe 10 percent of it.

HANNITY: Let me point out — let me ask you this.

MOORE: So you disagree with the FBI?

HANNITY: I disagree with you.

MOORE: But you're saying you disagree with law enforcement.

HANNITY: I disagree with your analysis.

MOORE: You disagree with law enforcement.

HANNITY: You don't want to in any way blame the individual.

MOORE: No, I just said that. No, I just said there were always people who lived beyond their means, but that's a small, small piece of it. Do you know the number one reason why people lose their homes? Medical bills. It's the number one reason for bankruptcies. And — yes. So why don't you get behind universal health care for everybody?

HANNITY: All right, let me ask you one last question.

MOORE: No. Don't leave that. I just asked you a question. Why don't you get behind universal health care?

HANNITY: Because — I'm going into that now. Here's my point. What's the answer then if we don't have capitalism? And I'm not saying capitalism is perfect. I don't think — I think we can make improvements. I think there are unethical people that run some businesses. But there are some very ethical people that create goods and services that we want, need and desire.

MOORE: There are a lot of ethical people who do that. Yes.

HANNITY: Lot. A ton.

MOORE: Yes. All right.

HANNITY: You say you're an ethical person.

MOORE: Yes, yes, and there's a lot of small business people who struggle to get by. You know, I'm not against — when you say I'm against capitalism, I'm against what it has become.

HANNITY: In some instances.

MOORE: In most instances. Downtown here in the big picture of how this economy is being run, of how the money is being moved around. We don't make things anymore, Sean. Have you recognized that?

HANNITY: I've made things my whole life, so I agree with you. I agree with you.

MOORE: I'm talking about the money. We just make money off money now.

HANNITY: Some people do and some people do it in ethical way. Some people do it...

MOORE: But where's the stuff? Where's the next invention? Where's the thing — where's the incentive for our young people?

HANNITY: They're the ones that provide these start-up companies sometimes, the money that gets, you know, the next new drug that's going to extend or prolong our life. They're the ones that create the goods and services that we desire every day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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