This is a rush transcript from "Glenn Beck," April 20, 2009. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

(MUSIC)

GLENN BECK, HOST: From the "Death Star," we have Karl Rove and John Bolton with us now.

(LAUGHTER)

KARL ROVE, FORMER BUSH SENIOR ADVISER: John, I'm your father.

(LAUGHTER)

BECK: You know, we were talking about Hugo Chavez. I just want to put some of these green quotes up here:

"I think Hitler would be a baby suckling next to George W. Bush."

"The U.S. has bombarded entire cities, used chemical weapons and napalm, killed women and children and thousands of soldiers in Iraq," this according to Washington Post. "That's terrorism."

When 9/11 happened, he said, "Capitalism will lead to the destruction of humanity. It is the devil that represents capitalism," and he said we brought 9/11 on ourselves.

This is a bad, bad dude. Obama plays kissy face with him. At the same time, he gets up and he gives a speech and he says, "By the way, we're going to get strong on drugs and we're going to get strong on guns."

Video: Watch Beck's interview

And, Ambassador, I have this theory that there is — that all of us are worried about all the things that we read about in the paper. But we're just watching a little game. The real action is happening up at the level that you were at. You can't get it done down here, so they'll just kick it up and you never pay attention because if you say anything to somebody, you know, about hey, about Mexico, wait a minute, they're going to crackdown on guns — most people won't know that that means something bad.

Can you explain this?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Sure. Take the Mexico thing as a case study. The administration has bought this line that 90 percent of the weapons used by Mexican drug cartels come from the United States.

Now, let's ignore the fact that there is already a law against exporting weapons without a license, which all of these would be in violation of. What they're going to do is say this shows that guns are a global problem. And as we know, global problems require global solutions. They can't get the kind of gun control they want at the federal or state level, so they're going to internationalize the problem as gun control advocates tried to do unsuccessfully in the Bush administration.

BECK: But don't we need to have the Senate ratify something like this?

BOLTON: Exactly. But they have changed the political dynamic dramatically. No. 1, this would be negotiated with a bunch of people who really do believe in gun control internationally. Second, when it comes back to us as a treaty, it's not amendable. It's take it or leave it.

And the advocates will say, "150 other countries have ratified this treaty. Why will the United States stand outside the civilized consensus?" So, even though you need 2/3 to ratify a treaty, they've changed the political dynamic in a fundamental way.

ROVE: And remember, this is all based on a completely phony number.

BECK: Oh, I know.

ROVE: Barack Obama said the other day, 90 percent of these guns come from the United States. In reality, if you look at the real numbers, there are 29,000 guns, 11,000 of them got by the Mexicans. Eleven thousand of them are submitted to the United States to find out if they came from the United States and 5,000 came from the United States. So, it's not 90 percent, it's 15 percent of the total guns.

Look, Mexico has a very poor southern border with Central America, and it has two very long coastlines and a very imperfect custom system. Most of these guns are coming in from somewhere else around the world, not coming from the United States.

BECK: But it doesn't — look, it doesn't matter. I mean, there is a lot of stuff coming off of that border. And I'm so sick and tired of talking about this border because nobody really wants to change anything.

What I'm concerned about is people — Barack Obama has not made it clear during presidency, but he's made it extraordinarily clear when he was a senator, that he is no friend of guns.

The people who write about me — The New York Times said last week that transnationalism, I'm just whipping people up into a frenzy because transnationalism isn't even — isn't really even valid. There was a full story in Newsweek about exactly what I talked about with Harold Koh on transnationalism.

They're also saying that all these gun worries, they're nothing. Transnationalism and gun laws — international gun laws will be the death of the Constitution of the Second Amendment, yes or no?

BOLTON: Well, let's just think — and I think it's a short route to it. Let's just take the difference between how legislation is enacted in Congress versus how a treaty is negotiated in Congress. It's out in public. People can try and influence it. They know what's going on.

Treaties are negotiated in backrooms and dungy corridors in the United Nations, in international conference centers all over the world. And when it comes out, there it is. And this is a crucial point. It is a take it or leave it proposition.

And there are many people in this country who can be influenced by saying, "Oh, if Europe has ratified the treaty, how can you stand against it?" So, this is an issue that goes well beyond guns. For every important domestic issue — death penalty, abortion, and a whole range like that — there are people who want to internationalize the question because they think they will get a better result than they are getting domestically.

ROVE: And there are things that can hinge on the Second Amendment right without being a treaty. There are things that could be done in the economy, on the environment, on a whole range of sub-issues, included the Second Amendment and the right to keep and bear arms. They can be done short in a treaty by some kind of an agreement that begins to pinch.

And look, remember, we have a Supreme Court with several members who've gone on the record publicly, last year...

BECK: Ginsburg.

ROVE: We ought to be paying attention to international law and the laws of other countries as we come to our own decisions.

BECK: Look, you know, here is the thing. I mean, I've been — I've been doing my homework. I'm a self-educated guy, but I have been doing my homework. And I have been reading about 1900 to 1930. And that's the — that is the key to the destruction of this country. It is the progressive movement. No offense, Karl, but it was infiltrated. It went right into the Republican Party as well. And we've been arguing about a big government or a slightly smaller government.

These — this whole transnationalism bullcrap has been going on for a very long time, and I — and I feel like we are headed towards the moment where you are not going to be able to reel it back in if we continue to sign these treaties or go down these avenues on global warming and now global gun control. How are you are going to get it back?

BOLTON: This is — this is not abstract. For the average American, what these people are talking about by internationalizing what should be domestic debates is reducing our democracy here. Look, people agree or disagree about the death penalty. Fine, we debate it out. The more you put an end to the international context, the more you're taking it away from our ability to debate it.

ROVE: I'm relatively optimistic though, because for one thing, people like you and others are speaking out about it. And look, this is not something that the average American is going to agree with the internationalists on.

BECK: But the average American doesn't feel like they have a voice. And these trans-nationalists — look, you can't get — let's just take this: Gay marriage — only 30 percent of the country says, "Yes, gay marriage." Now, that's not civil unions, gay marriage. But that's inevitable, it's going to happen. It just feels like it's absolutely inevitable.

And it's not just that. It's cap-and-trade. You are not going to be able to get cap-and-trade through. They know that. So, what did they do? This weekend, they announced the EPA is going to do it. So, now the EPA can do it and they'll attach on to something global, and the whole thing will be done.

ROVE: Well, they won't do cap-and-trade, they'll do command and control. We'll have something looks more like your Soviet Russia than a market mechanism like cap-and-trade.

BECK: So, Karl, what I'm asking you is how does the average person — you look at the numbers for global warming, it's now 30 percent of the American people. The number has gone down with all of this, you know, B.S. that they have been going on in the movies and everything else. The number is actually going down.

So, how does the average person affect change or to stop this kind of change?

ROVE: The average person affects it by participating fully in the American political system.

BECK: They have.

ROVE: No, they haven't. No, they haven't. When you have a presidential election and six out of every 10 eligible American vote...

BECK: Do you know why they...

ROVE: and four out of 10 don't?

BECK: ...because they don't believe in it anymore.

ROVE: Well, you know what? They better believe in it because if they don't believe in it, it's going to go away. That's the one thing I do worry about. If Americans give up, if Americans who believe like you and John and I do, say, "You know what, it's not worth the fight, throw in the towel," we will not only have given up something important as Americans but we will have given up the American system.

BOLTON: And I think the other thing is, however disillusioned they are with the American political system, they do not have faith in the United Nations or the international systems.

BECK: But, John, you know...

BOLTON: But you tell them it's disappearing...

(CROSSTALK)

BECK: I don't think they believe that. There is nobody out there that will look America straight in the eye and say, "You're going to lose your Constitution." You're going to lose the Constitution if you don't pay attention, because it will go to an international community.

BOLTON: That's a pretty good start.

BECK: Will you guys say that? Look the camera in the eye and tell Americans that this isn't crazy talk from some uninformed host.

BOLTON: Look, sovereignty is not an abstract concept. Sovereignty is vested in our system, in we, the people. So the people who argue for sharing sovereignty or lessening our sovereignty are saying to the average citizen, "You have too much control over your government. We're going to lessen that burden by putting it out in the international system."

ROVE: All the important things are one generation from going away. You know, the Constitution is one generation away. Christianity is one generation away. Our Constitution is one generation away. All of these things depend on the active involvement of people — the active involvement of who believe in those institutions and those values.

BECK: I will tell you, I have seen involvement unlike I've seen it ever before and it bipartisan involvement now. People, I think, have a gut and they say, "Something's happening and it's not good." And I think you're starting to see America waking up and stepping to the plate.

BOLTON: And it will come from different places. Ask labor unions what they think about restrictive environmental regulation on the use of power and what that does to jobs.

BECK: OK. Guys, thank you very much.

Content and Programming Copyright 2009 FOX News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2009 CQ Transcriptions, LLC, which takes sole responsibility for the accuracy of the transcription. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material except for the user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon FOX News Network, LLC'S and CQ Transcriptions, LLC's copyrights or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.