This partial transcript from Hannity & Colmes, August 28, 2002 was provided by the Federal Document Clearing House.
Click here to order last night's entire transcript.
SEAN HANNITY, CO-HOST: And welcome to HANNITY & COLMES. We're glad you're with us. I'm Sean Hannity reporting from Salt Lake City tonight.
And coming up, a man who was just released from prison after serving 17 years for a crime he did not commit. Tonight, you'll meet free man, Eddie Joe Lloyd, and his lawyer, Barry Scheck
And then Kennedy cousin, Michael Skakel is waiting to hear his sentence for the 1975 murder of his neighbor, Martha Moxley. An expert on the case, Mark Fuhrman, will join us tonight.
And I'll also give away, by the way, two more free signed copies of my book. But you have to stay tuned to get them. We'll tell you how to get those, coming up later.
But, first, our top story tonight, an update on the Elizabeth Smart case.
The man police say is a potential suspect in the disappearance of the 14-year-old Salt Lake City girl is in a hospital after undergoing six hours of surgery early this morning for an apparent blood clot in his brain.
Last night, Richard Ricci complained that he was having trouble breathing and then passed out in his cell where he was being held on robbery charges unrelated to the girl's abduction.
So what does this mean for the investigation into Elizabeth's disappearance, and are there any new leads?
Joining us now, Elizabeth's father, Ed Smart, and her aunt, Cynthia Smart Owens.
Good to see you again. I wish under better circumstances one more time.
You're not in the spotlight like you once were. Any developments? Any encouragement behind the scenes?
ED SMART, ELIZABETH SMART'S FATHER: Well, I think that, you know, both the FBI and the police have been working hard on this.
You know, one thing that did come to light more is that, you know, there was a person with Richard at this auto repair shop. And, to me, that is just so important to find out who that person was.
HANNITY: Well, you hear what happened to Richard in this particular case. And, you know, what does that mean in your mind as it relates to the investigation? I mean, this is a -- is not a turn in your favor.
SMART: No, it isn't. You know, we had expected to hear something from Richard. We'd gone to the courthouse yesterday hoping to hear something or have some resolution, and the case was continued for
discovery, which -- I mean, what is there to discover in a theft? I mean, it was pretty cut and dry, as I understood it.
HANNITY: You know, we've been following the case closely. In my mind, by far, this man is my number one suspect in the missing -- in the abduction of your daughter. No disagreement from you?
SMART: No, I think he is, you know, at this time, the number one suspect.
HANNITY: Ed, when you look at the story, what really stands out in my mind is this whole situation about the car -- he had been working for you. You gave him this car -- the trip that he took, the mileage we have, and, more importantly, the seat covers that he removed from the car. Explain what it means to you.
SMART: Well, to me, the fact that he would remove the seat covers indicates that, you know, maybe Elizabeth was in that vehicle, and he was removing it to remove any evidence of her having been there.
You know, when I hear about this machete, that certainly doesn't make me feel too well, and -- but that he would take that and whatever other things he had, and the fact that he denies -- did deny ever having dropped the vehicle off or taking that stuff -- I mean, there's no reason.
HANNITY: And even Chief Dinse today said that he basically has lied to them on a number of occasions, and he was very forthcoming in saying that.
I want to get back to the evidence -- part of it -- in just a minute here. It's been a long time now since Elizabeth was abducted. I spoke to you for the first time now in a while today.
And I felt for the first time that you were down. I felt for the first time -- now maybe I'm sensing it wrong -- but you were losing a little bit of hope. Are you?
SMART: No, I'm not losing hope. It was just such a shock with what happened last night. I just -- you know, when he -- when I had the -- our contact call us and tell us, I just -- you know, I mean, how much more bizarre can a case get with having something like this happen?
ALAN COLMES, CO-HOST: Ed -- Cynthia and Ed, it's Alan in New York. Good to have you back on the program.
Cynthia, do -- do you believe that Elizabeth is still alive?
CYNTHIA SMART OWENS, ELIZABETH SMART'S AUNT: That's a good question. I don't know. It's such an unusual case.
I know that there's such a -- I think a 3-percent chance after they've been gone for a short period of time that anybody will remain alive, and so I know just looking at the statistics, it -- it doesn't look good.
On the other hand, it's such an unusual case, and even when you look at the, you know, reasons that somebody could have for taking her, it seems like the most outstanding one is just that she's such a beautiful, exceptional girl, and so -- it's hard to know.
I guess personally really I have to be honest and say I have been not feeling so strongly that she was alive except that Edward has had such a strong feeling, and I know that we need to find her, and so it's kept me going.
COLMES: Do you agree with Ed that Ricci is the prime suspect?
OWENS: Yes, but I think there are many reasons to feel that there are other people that know about what happened and that he did have some assistance, if he, indeed, was the one who did it.
You know, it was absolutely stunning and shocking to hear what happened last night, but I feel like, you know, that was an act of God. It's in God's hands. And who knows this might actually help…
Ricci has been so incredibly unhelpful in the investigation that it's hard to say whether people might be more willing to come forward if he does happen to die or if he has some experience that it might soften his heart.
COLMES: Ed, you know, that Jeep that everybody's talking about, you gave him that car. Is that correct?
SMART: He worked for that car. Right.
COLMES: Why did you give it to him instead of cash?
SMART: Well, at the time he was working for me, he had no transportation, and he had a need, and I -- you know, he seemed like -- I mean, I -- as I've said before, he was a very likable, very nice person,
and I wanted to help him out.
And he was telling me how he was looking at vehicles, and I said, "Well" -- we sat down and wrote out a contract. "If you work X number of hours per week over this period of time" -- I mean, I literally, more or less, you might consider, loaned him the money. I mean, I...
COLMES: You know...
SMART: I gave him the car. He owed me a number of hours worth of work.
COLMES: His brother-in-law, David Moore (ph), said there were no seat covers in that car.
SMART: Pardon me?
COLMES: His brother-in-law is quoted as saying that there were no seat covers. So this issue of him taking out the seat covers, he said, is a false issue because -- he was quoted in one publication as saying there were none.
SMART: Well, I believe very strongly in the testimony of Neth Moul. He is the one credible person. He has no reason to lie, no reason to not be straightforward, and I believe his testimony way over and above anyone having to do with Richard. I don't know about Richard's brother-in-law. I haven't heard this comment come up, but I do believe very strongly in this -- in Neth. I really do.
OWENS: And even if he knew that he was going to be going to take Elizabeth, it's not unreasonable to think he would have bought some so he could dispose of them.
HANNITY: We're going to take a break. We'll continue with the Smarts in just a moment.
And then, can you imagine spending 17 years in prison for a crime you did not commit? Well, Eddie Joe Lloyd did just that. What did he learn from his experience? He'll join us tonight, along with attorney Barry Scheck.
And the sentencing hearing in the Skakel trial. It started today. What should we expect? We'll talk with one investigator that's been following closely, Mark Fuhrman. He wrote, "Murder in Greenwich." He'll join us tonight straight ahead.
COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. I'm Alan Colmes.
Coming up, convicted murderer Eddie Joe Lloyd was freed from prison this week after DNA testing proved he didn't commit the crime. So why did he confess to the murder? We'll ask him.
Then should Michael Skakel get a light sentence for the 1975 murder of Martha Moxley? We'll ask the -- rather the author of "Murder in Greenwich," Mark Fuhrman, a little later on.
But we now continue with Ed Smart and Cynthia Smart Owens.
Mr. Smart, let me ask you, your daughter, Mary Katherine, who it's been reported, saw the intruder, has she said anything to you to indicate that Ricci is that person?
We're not hearing you here, Alan. So...
COLMES: All right.
HANNITY: I hope you can hear me there. So I assume you can hear me, Alan. Just nod your head.
COLMES: I can hear you, Sean, yes.
HANNITY: I guess I'll pick up the questioning, assuming that we're on the air here. I want to ask, first of all, how are you holding up, I mean, after a period of time?
SMART: You know, it's just a day-to-day thing. I have my ups. I have my downs. It's just frustrating that it's not over with. And I -- you know, I just -- you know, I've had feelings where, you know, Elizabeth might not be alive.
I mean, I haven't had feelings. I guess I've had so much information coming at me to that effect that I've kind of doubted, but I still feel strongly she's out there.
HANNITY: You do?
SMART: I do.
HANNITY: Can you describe maybe for those of us that -- because I
guess this is every parent's worst nightmare. We're talking about kids.
You're a pediatrician, Cynthia.
You know, it's every parent's worst nightmare. What are the feelings?
I mean, what is actually, that you just sense she's there waiting for you
to find her?
SMART: I do -- I just -- you know, inside, I just had a feeling that
she is still alive, and she is out there.
In fact, the other night, I had a dream that wife was asleep, and she came walking through the door and came over and gave me this hug, and I just held her so tight, and I felt -- you know, I just -- I
feel like she's out there.
I -- you know, there's nothing more...
HANNITY: Does Lois feel the same way?
SMART: You know, I think she is trying to cope with things, and it's easier for her to feel that maybe she's in a better place, and I...
HANNITY: Do you talk about that?
SMART: Yes, we talk about that, and I understand that that's a
way that she copes with it. I mean, the not knowing what she's been through or what is happening to her is just so horrible that it's just, you know, I believe that I understand how she's coping with it.
HANNITY: Yeah. And I guess it's always the not knowing. I want to get back to Ricci and this other guy that we had talked about.
The key in your mind, considering what -- the news of today, what has happened to him, I mean, we don't know what's going to happen with him. We don't know if he's even going to survive.
SMART: We don't.
HANNITY: Then, the next key to that is this other man.
SMART: I feel that it is. I think that -- you know, I just need to have anyone out there that is holding information back, whether it was in fear of Ricci or for whatever reason, to please come forward and help us.
HANNITY: Yeah. All right. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back.
More in Salt Lake City tonight. We're going to have more with the Smarts right after this break.
And also coming up, 17 years after his murder conviction, it turns out that he didn't commit the crime. Eddie Joe Lloyd -- he's here, and he'll share that harrowing story.
And then, the court refused a new trial today for Michael Skakel. So what kind of sentence could the Kennedy cousin be facing? We'll ask? Mark Fuhrman straight ahead.
HANNITY: As we continue on HANNITY & COLMES, I'm Sean Hannity. I'm Sean Hannity. We're reporting from Salt Lake City tonight.
I want to talk -- yours was probably the first, most prominent case that we've been focusing on, and now there's been a rash of these kidnappings, and, frankly, I'm getting tired of turning on the TV to see
that another child has been abducted.
Behind the scenes, you have been helping other people and moving forward with the Amber Alert. In this state, it's called something else. Tell us what you've been up to and how you've been involved in that.
SMART: Well, I think with Elizabeth's and with all the other abductions, one of the keys in finding them is having that information out there immediately, in getting any information that can help the public find this person.
HANNITY: Has the media been good to you?
SMART: I feel the media has been very good to me, and I am very grateful to them.
I feel that the new national Amber network that is coming forward, this bill that's being proposed in the Senate and will shortly be coming forward in the House is something that needs to go forward.
It's non-mandatory, but it's something that will have matching grants, that will help institute in states that do not have this, make it available to all children, and all children need to have this allowance and this benefit.
COLMES: Ed and Cynthia, it's Alan back in New York. I hope you can hear me now OK.
COLMES: Cynthia, how is Mary Katherine doing?
OWENS: Ed would really be able to give you a better report, but, from what I understand, she's back in school, and her first day was very good. Nobody asked her any questions, which was a relief to her.
COLMES: Ed, what do you tell Mary Katherine when she goes to school? I mean, you've got to be concerned about her wellbeing. What instructions do you give her?
SMART: I give her the instructions that I know she is a strong girl, that she has learned a lot this summer, she knows how to control the situation she's in, and that she will be able to handle things fine, and
she is doing great.
COLMES: Here's the question I asked you before, though you didn't get a chance to hear. We had a little technical difficulty. Did she anything to you -- you think that Ricci is somehow involved in this. Did Mary Katherine, who allegedly saw the abductor, say anything to you that would indicate that Ricci is that person?
SMART: You know, there are a number of things that indicate Ricci is that person. One of those things is that he had a prior invasion to a home in which he came in while everyone was asleep, came through the house, the same way ours was, came into the room, went around the bed, took things, and left, and this person even awoke in the bed and had a slight conversation with Richard, and he made some grunting noises, and the fact that he has the nerve to do this to me set a tremendous pattern for what
COLMES: But did Mary Katherine ever identify his voice or the voice of anybody?
SMART: You know, she recognized a voice, and I -- as part of the investigation, I can't go into, you know, what or who that voice was.
COLMES: Was a sketch ever done?
SMART: You know, I can't go into that either. I'm sorry.
COLMES: I understand that, I'd like to understand a little bit about why you can't go into that. I mean, normally, in a case like this, sketches are done as a matter of course. Is there a reason you can't
comment on this?
SMART: That's true. You know, the police have their reasons for it, and I have tried to work with the police as best that I can, and I feel that they're --
You know, Jeanne Boylan said, you know, "There's a reason that the police are handling things the way they are handling them, and I highly approve of what they're doing."
And I feel strongly, too, about what they're doing, and because of that, I am just, you know, sticking with the police and how they feel and how they want...
COLMES: It seems there was resistance at first to bringing Jeanne Boylan in. Now she got involved about a month ago. Why the initial resistance, and then why the change of course?
SMART: You know, I don't think there was any initial resistance. I had placed a couple of calls to her, and, at one time the person who had recommended to her -- me to her had -- was kind of trying to jump the police, and I have felt that the police brought her in at the time they felt that it would be significant.
I feel that there were some comments made to the effect that we didn't want to bring her in, but I feel that -- you know, he can have his own opinion, but I feel that things were done in the right manner.
COLMES: Cynthia, let me go back to you. What do you make of -- I mean, the media has not been focused on the Smart family for a while. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Have you enjoyed kind of the breather, or do you kind of wish that the focus had stayed there because that could help have a-- bring a quicker resolution to this?
OWENS: Well, personally, it's somewhat of a relief. But we do feel like it is important to keep looking for her because we haven't found her, and it is hard for people to keep hearing about it every day, and there's only so much people can do.
But we're hoping that it's keeping some pressure on the law enforcement to continue to let people know that they're -- excuse me -- to let me the law enforcement know that people are still very interested and that we haven't forgotten about Elizabeth. So I'm grateful to be able to talk to you today.
And I think, you know, even with Ricci -- if Ricci were to die, it still seems so clear that other people had contact with him, and, you know, with this other break-in or attempted break-in at the Wright (ph) home, you know, that hasn't been answered, whether it was possibly the same person or
whether it was somebody working with the initial person, and...
COLMES: Are you saying that, if, indeed, he is involved, that he didn't do it by himself and there are other people who you believe were involved in the abduction of Elizabeth?
OWENS: Yes, I do. And so I think there's still a lot to be pursued, and I hope that nobody feels that if Ricci dies that it's a dead issue because there are some very significant things which have happened which are unanswered which pertain to the case.
COLMES: You've got to be sitting there, though, thinking, "Gee, I hope this guy lives," because, if he's got knowledge, we want to know what that knowledge is.
OWENS: Yes, although he has not been particularly helpful. I'm hoping that maybe this experience might change his perspective a little bit.
COLMES: Ed, what is you do...
COLMES: ... emotionally to get through this period of time day after day? How do you cope? What do you do?
SMART: Pray. I feel that we have had such support in our community, people that would do anything to help us, you know, they've volunteered to come over and take the kids.
We did get out of town one weekend with a neighbor that volunteered to let us go up and spend some time in Sun Valley, and we went out, and we did get away from it for a couple of days.
And I go running occasionally, although I've been with the media so much that it's hard to keep that consistent, but I still truly have to focus on Elizabeth because...
COLMES: I mean, if you have a moment of pleasure, it's got to be a guilty pleasure and -- say to yourself, "Gee, do I even deserve this moment of peace or happiness?"
SMART: Well, I think that, in order to maintain any kind of sanity, you have to get away a little bit.
HANNITY: Have you gone back to work?
COLMES: Are you happy with the way...
HANNITY: Have you gone back to work?
SMART: Oh, absolutely.
COLMES: Are you happy with the way the police have been conducting this and the way the authorities are continuing this investigation?
SMART: I have. It can never come fast enough for me or for my wife. I mean, we're -- we're constantly wanting updates on information, and things move slowly, and sometimes they have to move slowly, so I mean, the police warned me up front -- he said, "Ed, you know, sometimes you're going to be frustrated with us," so I accept that.
HANNITY: Ed, none of us have forgotten your daughter. We wish you Godspeed, and hope it's -- next time I see you, it's with good news.
SMART: Thank you, Sean.
HANNITY: Thank you both for being with us. Thank you, Cynthia. Good to see you.
Click here to order last night's entire transcript.
Copy: Content and Programming Copyright 2002 Fox News Network, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2001 eMediaMillWorks, Inc. (f/k/a Federal Document Clearing House, Inc.), which takes sole responsibility for the accuracy of the transcription. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material except for the user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon Fox News Network, Inc.'s and eMediaMillWorks, Inc.'s copyrights or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.