Text of Fox News' interviews with Robert Nichols, father of Terry Nichols, and Terry Nichols' brother James:

FOX NEWS: Do you think - I mean, obviously, May 19th, everybody's looking to this execution of Timothy McVeigh. What does it mean to you, or do you even think about it?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I think they're going to be disappointed, aren't they?

FOX NEWS: Why are they going to be disappointed?

ROBERT NICHOLS: The government don't really want him dead, because they've got a lot of questions they want to ask him.

FOX NEWS: Do you think they'll stop it?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Mr. Bush has stopped a few of them. I wouldn't be surprised.

FOX NEWS: May 21 is the ...

(AUDIO GAP)

FOX NEWS: Well, that's it. That's it. I knew it was wrong somewhere. Yes, one of those.

Do you think - I mean, obviously, May 19, everybody's looking to this execution of Timothy McVeigh. What does it mean to you, or do you even think about it?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I think they're going to be disappointed, aren't they?

FOX NEWS: Why are they going to be disappointed?

ROBERT NICHOLS: The government don't really want him dead, because they have a lot of questions they want to ask him.

FOX NEWS: Do you think they'll stop it?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Mr. Bush has stopped a few of them. I wouldn't be surprised.

FOX NEWS: May 21 is the hearing - preliminary hearing for your son. Are you going to go to Oklahoma City for that?

ROBERT NICHOLS: May 21? I'll probably still be in the bean field. They're real good at planning these things so you can't show up.

FOX NEWS: When is the last time you saw your son?

ROBERT NICHOLS: The last time I saw him was in Denver.

FOX NEWS: When is the last time you talked to him?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Oh, probably three months ago. He's limited on the calls he can make and how much time he can be on the phone. They don't even give him the courtesy of saying, "Time's up." They just cut it off.

FOX NEWS: How do you think he's doing?

ROBERT NICHOLS: In his letters, he seems to be doing all right, but that's hard to tell. You can write something on paper which doesn't really show up how you are.

FOX NEWS: Do you think they tell him what to say?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yes. They'll tell Terry what to say.

FOX NEWS: What do you think is the most misperceived thing that the American public may think about your son?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I don't think I ever gave that any thought, particularly.

FOX NEWS: How would you describe him?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Average American boy.

FOX NEWS: Just wanted to live life (INAUDIBLE)?

ROBERT NICHOLS: He's just like the rest of us, any of us.

FOX NEWS: Do you think Timothy McVeigh should be executed?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I think that Timothy McVeigh is a pawn. He didn't do what they said was done. He may have been a part of it, but he's not the one who done it.

FOX NEWS: Who did do it?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I doubt that we'll ever know. But this brown Dodge pickup that was always in the scene, that had the five - there were three people in that, and they just forgot them.

FOX NEWS: Did Timothy McVeigh use your son?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I believe he did.

FOX NEWS: Do you think your son is responsible for any wrongdoing?

ROBERT NICHOLS: That's a broad statement – any wrongdoing, in his whole life. We all are (ph) something in our life. I don't feel he had anything to do with Oklahoma bombing.

FOX NEWS: You don't think he took part in any of the ...

ROBERT NICHOLS: I don't believe so.

FOX NEWS: You met Timothy McVeigh once. Is that correct?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Right.

FOX NEWS: What did you think of him when you met him?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I didn't know he was Timothy McVeigh. I just knew he was Tim. He was a very slight, well-mannered young man.

FOX NEWS: Some have said that Timothy McVeigh got some of his ideas from the Nichols.

ROBERT NICHOLS: Did they allude on what ideas?

FOX NEWS: Well, in regard to some of his antigovernment feelings, I guess.

ROBERT NICHOLS: I don't think he needed any help there. He had his own feelings, his own personal experience with them.

FOX NEWS: Why - or is it true to say that your family, in general, dislikes the government?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I don't think it's true in general. We don't agree with everything the government tries to do. And I don't know of anybody that does. I think we all have our own agendas, and none of us like to get our toes stepped on.

FOX NEWS: Do you feel like you have personally got your toes stepped on by the government?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I wasn't making a reference to personal instances. But I don't think anybody likes to get their toes stepped on.

FOX NEWS: What are your thoughts about Waco?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I think there's two people that should have been put in prison because of Waco – Janet Reno and Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton is as guilty as he can be. He could have stopped that at any moment as president. Him and Janet Reno committed mass murder.

FOX NEWS: Did you hear the recent - the recent letter, apparently, Timothy McVeigh wrote – and wrote to Rita Cosby, actually, from our network – that he wishes he could have killed Janet Reno?

ROBERT NICHOLS: No, but that statement, I think, is in his book, that she was his first target. But he was way off. For an expert marksman, he was way off the mark.

FOX NEWS: Do you feel any ill will toward Timothy McVeigh for what he has said about your son?

ROBERT NICHOLS: He hasn't said much, has he?

FOX NEWS: Well, about his involvement with the Oklahoma City bombing?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I haven't heard much that he's said about his involvement.

FOX NEWS: In regard to - I understand that you have a copy of the latest book that's out.

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yes.

FOX NEWS: "American Terrorism."

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yes.

FOX NEWS: What are your thoughts on that book?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I haven't got too much of it read, but I don't think those guys are doing what I understood Tim wanted done. It was supposed to be his words. And if they're using his words, you should be using the word "I," instead of "he." You're not telling it in the first person when you use "he." And most of the reference in the book is to, he, as far as I've gotten.

FOX NEWS: So you don't think it's a lot of Timothy McVeigh's words?

ROBERT NICHOLS: They're putting their own spin on a lot of it.

FOX NEWS: Do you think the book hurts your son having a fair trial?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Oh, I haven't gotten very far into the book, so I can't say as to that.

FOX NEWS: Do you think your son should be tried both at the federal level and at the state level, or do you believe that's against his constitutional rights?

ROBERT NICHOLS: That has always been against the constitution. One trial.

FOX NEWS: So you think it's double jeopardy to try him in ...

ROBERT NICHOLS: Sure it is.

FOX NEWS: ... the city of Oklahoma?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Sure it is.

FOX NEWS: Are you concerned, or do you think about the fact that he could face the death penalty?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Certainly.

FOX NEWS: Do you believe in capital punishment?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I always have.

FOX NEWS: So if a crime was committed, like that of Oklahoma City, you believe that, if Timothy McVeigh was involved, or your son was involved, that they should face that punishment?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I believe that you should prove it; what took place, not manufacture facts to fit your scenario. Where did you ever see a crime scene destroyed before anybody had a chance to look at it? Oklahoma City. In this day and age, everything is recyclable, isn't it?

 

Then why was that building demolished, hauled to a military installation, buried, 10-foot high fence with razor wire around the top of it, and a 24-hour armed guard posted on it? Why does a pile of rubble need all of that if there isn't something there that needs to be looked at?

FOX NEWS: Is there any good that has come out of the Oklahoma City bombing?

ROBERT NICHOLS: There again, that's a broad statement. Anything good?

FOX NEWS: I mean, do you think that the government needed to be sent a message of some sort?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Not that kind of a message. Not that kind of a message. They had three or four (INAUDIBLE) that anybody could have thrown up to them – the World Trade Center bombing, Randy Weaver, and Waco. That was unconstitutional. They had armed forces against civilians. That's against the Constitution.

FOX NEWS: But the Oklahoma City bombing isn't the answer?

ROBERT NICHOLS: It isn't the answer to what?

FOX NEWS: To sending a message to the government ...

ROBERT NICHOLS: No.

FOX NEWS: ... that that's wrong ...

ROBERT NICHOLS: No.

FOX NEWS: ... that Waco was wrong?

ROBERT NICHOLS: No, that's not the answer. The answer is to bring those up on charges who committed it.

FOX NEWS: Do you think that your son was manipulated by Timothy McVeigh?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Tim was a manipulator, yes. How much? I have no idea.

FOX NEWS: Their report - there have been reports that there were bomb - explosive-type bombs made at your - at the Decker (ph) farm that both James Nichols was at and Timothy was at.

ROBERT NICHOLS: I have never seen anything about pipe bombs. I have read some things about pop-bottle bombs, or fixed-explosive (ph) devices. They're not bombs. They're explosive devices.

FOX NEWS: Does that bother you that your sons would be doing any of that, making those?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Would it bother you if your kids had firecrackers, and as a result of firecrackers, they wanted a bigger firecracker? That's all they were.

FOX NEWS: What are your hopes now for your son, Terry?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I hope that he is able to get an appeal to the Denver trial. I don't understand - I've always thought that, when you appeal a judge's ruling, you went before another judge. His all went before the same judge. Do you think he's going to say, I made a mistake? No.

FOX NEWS: If (INAUDIBLE) appeal went through, that would be an appeal to his life sentence that was given down?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yes.

FOX NEWS: But he would still be ...

ROBERT NICHOLS: It would be an appeal to his conviction.

FOX NEWS: Do you trust the lawyers that represent your son now?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I haven't met them. I don't know.

FOX NEWS: Does - I mean, this community, obviously, you have many friends and people you - who live here. They know you as Bob Nichols.

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yes.

FOX NEWS: Obviously, the American public has grown to know you as the father of Terry Nichols.

ROBERT NICHOLS: Probably.

FOX NEWS: Does that bother you? Does it bother you, what your name is know as now, or what people think?

ROBERT NICHOLS: No. We had a lot of friends come up from Oklahoma when we were up there. They'd pass us on the highway, toot the horn and wave. They only knew it was us because they had seen the license plate. We had people come up to us in restaurants and tell us that they were on our side. What happened – what the government said what happened.

FOX NEWS: Do you know - in your mind, do you know what happened, or do you just know that – the circumstances of what is being reported as being happened, didn't happen?

ROBERT NICHOLS: There are certain things that I know in my mind. Have you ever had any experience with ammonia nitrate explosive? I have. I've done it on my stumps and stones and trees. I have had people tell me that the ground was literally covered with little white pearls (ph); little white pearls (ph). Ammonia nitrate is little white pearls (ph).

So when you mix it with crude (ph) oil, it's no longer white. So all there was there was a truck full of ammonia nitrate. Because if they had mixed it with crude oil – and I'm not sure of the date when they started dyeing the fuel oil so they could tell highway from off-highway, but prior to that, it would have been pee yellow. It wouldn't have been white. If it would have been dyed fuel, it would have been red or blue, but it wouldn't have been white.

FOX NEWS: So it couldn't happen the way they said it happened?

ROBERT NICHOLS: No. Not possible.

FOX NEWS: How did your son meet Timothy McVeigh?

ROBERT NICHOLS: In the Army. They enlisted at the same time, apparently.

FOX NEWS: Were they good friends?

ROBERT NICHOLS: That's what everybody says. I never knew Tim. And it was after they were both out of the Army that I saw him on that one occasion.

FOX NEWS: I've heard you quoted as saying that your son is a loyal friend, is a loyal person to Timothy.

ROBERT NICHOLS: That's right.

FOX NEWS: What do you mean by that?

ROBERT NICHOLS: You have a friend? You really have a friend? How many friends do you have?

FOX NEWS: Real friends? Probably six or seven.

ROBERT NICHOLS: You're above average. You can usually count all of your friends on one hand and have fingers left. You can't begin to count your acquaintances.

FOX NEWS: So Timothy McVeigh was an acquaintance, you think, of Terry's?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I don't know. I don't know how Terry feels about Tim, or how he did feel about him. I would imagine that has changed.

FOX NEWS: Timothy McVeigh writes in his book - or actually, the "American Terrorist," the journalist writes that Timothy McVeigh says that Oklahoma City was collateral damage.

ROBERT NICHOLS: I just read that part.

FOX NEWS: What do you think of that?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Well, I have a thought on Timothy McVeigh. Everything that you read about him is, he's a perfectionist. When he went to a rifle range to shoot, or the range, which - whatever kind of a range it was, if he didn't score 1,000, he was very disappointed with himself. And that's in the book too.

He is a perfectionist. The next time he went out, he scored 1,000. And he has proven that he is a very good shot.

Now, how many perfectionists can you imagine would concoct a bomb that the government says was concocted, and use a mediocre detonator? A five-minute bomb so far away from the building - I mean, a five-minute fuse, so far away from the building, and then a two-minute fuse, and then you walk two blocks away from it and it hadn't gone off yet, and he considered going back and detonating it with his .357.

Does that sound like a perfectionist? He had an electronic device, that when he got where he wanted to be, then he could have detonated it. That's (ph) not the way (ph) they say (ph). Not at all.

FOX NEWS: Do you think Timothy McVeigh is getting exactly what he wants?

ROBERT NICHOLS: No. I don't think he knows what he wants. I do think that he wants to be a martyr, and I think he's well on his way.

FOX NEWS: What do you think is going to happen on May 16?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I don't even consider it. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, then I was right.

FOX NEWS: You think someone will stop it, though?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I'm pretty sure in my mind that that could happen.

FOX NEWS: Do you think Timothy would stop it?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I don't think he could stop it.

FOX NEWS: Even if he said he wanted to appeal it, which apparently he has the right to do?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I'm not sure, but I thought that I read that his last chance for that passed.

FOX NEWS: Does it surprise you that so many Americans are interested in the story?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I don't know how many are interested. I really don't. But I know there's a lot of them that are - don't believe it. I've met a lot of them in Oklahoma. Personally, I wish the trial would have stayed in Oklahoma, because Oklahomans know the story.

FOX NEWS: Are you proud to be a U.S. citizen?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yes, I am. But I'm not that proud of a lot of our government officials and the things they do.

FOX NEWS: Do you think that will ever change? Do you think the government can ever change?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Sure they can change. Hopefully, the man there now will effect some changes, or get it started.

FOX NEWS: So you have …

(AUDIO GAP)

FOX NEWS: You had said - the article that I had read in the Fort Huron (ph) "Times-Herald" (ph) that you thought that some people think your son is weak. Is that quoted correctly, or you - I mean, did you ...

ROBERT NICHOLS: I didn't read that in there.

FOX NEWS: That - I mean, I guess it was stated as that, if people think your son is weak, they're wrong. But that you thought that people might think that, that they might be - they might think of him as somebody who is a pawn, or just went along with Timothy McVeigh.

ROBERT NICHOLS: I’m going to have to read that article over, because I don't remember that in there.

FOX NEWS: I can show you. I just - so, that's not true? You don't believe ...

ROBERT NICHOLS: No, I don't really believe that.

FOX NEWS: When the FBI questioned you about Timothy McVeigh, you didn't remember meeting him. Correct?

ROBERT NICHOLS: They showed me a picture - not a picture. They showed me a sketch and wanted to know if I'd ever seen that person. And I said no. And then in August, I was getting "U.S. News and World Report" - I think that's the one it was – and I'm thumbing through that, and there's a picture of Tim McVeigh. And that is the young man that was in my house, not the sketch that they brought. It wasn't even close.

FOX NEWS: But you only knew him as Tim. Right?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Right.

FOX NEWS: What were your first thoughts when you heard he was involved with the Oklahoma City bombing, or at least that he had been accused of doing it?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I didn't have much opinion in one way or the other, because I didn't know him.

FOX NEWS: What about when you - when they were questioning your son?

ROBERT NICHOLS: What about when they were questioning him?

FOX NEWS: I mean, what were your thoughts? I mean, did you think, this can't be right, or they're wrong, or what were you feeling at that point?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yes, I figured they were wrong. I knew in my mind that they were wrong.

FOX NEWS: And they even - they charged James Nichols too. Correct?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Right.

FOX NEWS: And they dropped the charges later?

ROBERT NICHOLS: No. They didn't drop them. He's beat them. They could not substantiate their charges. They didn't just drop them. He beat them.

FOX NEWS: Do you feel like they came after your family?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yes, I guess you would say that. There's not much doubt, is there?

FOX NEWS: Why, do you think?

ROBERT NICHOLS: The way it all transpired. When Timothy McVeigh - now, this is what I've always been told, but it's not that way in the book. When he left Waco, he drove directly to James's place where he was parked right directly in front of FBI personnel, passing out politically-incorrect literature. When he left there, they tracked him. They followed him right up there.

FOX NEWS: So they knew - that was the first tie from Timothy McVeigh to your son?

ROBERT NICHOLS: As far as I know, yes.

FOX NEWS: In the book, it said that Timothy McVeigh was at the Decker (ph) farm when Waco happened. Is that correct?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yes, that's in the book.

FOX NEWS: But you're saying Timothy McVeigh was in - at Waco.

ROBERT NICHOLS: He was there, but not when they burned it.

FOX NEWS: Oh, OK. When they burned it, he was at Decker (ph)?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yes.

FOX NEWS: And did you know that Timothy and your son disagreed with what happened at Waco?

NICHOLS: At that point in time? No.

FOX NEWS: You never talked about it with him?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I never had any conversations with Tim except the day he was at my place.

FOX NEWS: Did you know that your sons were thinking of going to Waco?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Well, first of all, I don't even know that yet.

FOX NEWS: OK.

ROBERT NICHOLS: I read that in the book, but it only mentioned Terry.

FOX NEWS: Right. And James wasn't going to go, at least from what the book said.

Do you agree with any of the comments that you've read in the book that McVeigh has said?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Any of the comments about what?

FOX NEWS: Just in general. I mean, there are comments that - I mean, do you think some of what is said in that book is true?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Well, definitely is some truth in it. But like I told you earlier, these guys have claimed (ph) their spin on a lot of it.

FOX NEWS: Did - from your knowledge, did McVeigh threaten Terry and his - and your family?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I would have no way of knowing that.

FOX NEWS: Do you think McVeigh set your son up to be in certain places so that he was on videotape, that he has his fingerprints on certain materials, those kind of things?

ROBERT NICHOLS: What materials?

FOX NEWS: Well, they've said that there are fingerprints on supplies that were bought for making the bomb – that Terry's fingerprints are on those, along with McVeigh's.

ROBERT NICHOLS: No, I've never heard that before.

FOX NEWS: That's in the book as well.

ROBERT NICHOLS: Well, I haven't got that far.

FOX NEWS: Yeah.

ROBERT NICHOLS: But they could not - in court, they could not put Terry's fingerprints on anything, not even on that silver dollar that was rolled up in a piece of paper. They couldn't find Terry's fingerprints on it at all, yet they claimed he rolled them up in that piece of paper that they found in his kitchen drawer. And his wife said them were not there yesterday, because they cleaned that drawer.

FOX NEWS: Is there anything you want the American people to know about you and your family?

ROBERT NICHOLS: If they don't know it by know, they'll never know.

FOX NEWS: You mean, if they've watched and they've read into what really ...

ROBERT NICHOLS: In six years, if they haven't picked up anything, they’re not going to get it right now.

FOX NEWS: In that last statement, it sounds like you've kind of given up hope on the fact that your son will be absolved of this crimes.

ROBERT NICHOLS: I haven't given up hope.

FOX NEWS: Do you think something might come out - is there something that maybe somebody knows?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Oh, there undoubtedly is a lot that somebodies know that is not being said. How could Trooper Hanger (ph), when he stopped Tim McVeigh for no license plate - and after he stopped him, this brown Dodge pickup showed up - pulled up in front of them and stopped. Their license plate is on his video, and they finally tracked it down. It belonged to a pickup that set at Michael Fortier's place.

And they insist that the license had not been removed and the pickup had not been moved for three or four years. So how could it have been in Oklahoma where Trooper Hanger (ph) was? It was on his video. And they never could find the brown Dodge pickup. But finally they did, and it's now green.

FOX NEWS: Sounds like you suspect that Michael Fortier was - had more to do with this than what the federal government would believe?

ROBERT NICHOLS: No doubt, no doubt at all. And a number of other people.

FOX NEWS: Why does - why don't you think they're going after those people?

ROBERT NICHOLS: They wanted to make an example, and they figured they had what they wanted. They got two out of three.

FOX NEWS: Why would Timothy McVeigh say that he did this alone?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Say he'd done it alone? That in the book? How alone can you get when you enlist the help of people that are supposed to be your friends?

I wish I had of read the whole book before I talked to you.

FOX NEWS: There's a lot of - I mean, I guess Timothy McVeigh's old lawyer, Stephen Jones, said that - or he's violated the memorandum, and says it hurts your son for a fair trial, or that McVeigh exaggerated stuff in the book to help your son in his trial, saying that he had done it alone.

ROBERT NICHOLS: Well, he could have said that a long time ago and it would have had more credibility than it does today.

FOX NEWS: Because not it's - your son is already ...

ROBERT NICHOLS: Well, he's in a bad position, ain't no doubt about that. But Stephen Jones is no angel.

FOX NEWS: Do you think that in the Oklahoma - you said that you wished the trial would have stayed in Oklahoma. Do you think that, when you son is tried in Oklahoma, that he will not be convicted?

ROBERT NICHOLS: No, that's not what I was referring to. I think that the original trial, the federal trial, would have been more to his advantage in Oklahoma than in Denver, because the people of Oklahoma were there. They know.

FOX NEWS: Do you feel for the victims?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Certainly I do. And we are fairly good friends with some of the people who were victims.

FOX NEWS: Do you feel like you're a victim?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I suppose I could say I've been victimized, but Terry is the one who is the victim at this point in time.

FOX NEWS: What are your hopes for yourself?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Myself? I don't have no problems. You'll find me standing out there in the field, like I told you.

FOX NEWS: You're a farmer?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yeah. I'm a believer.

FOX NEWS: If you were describing yourself to somebody, what would you say about yourself?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I don't know. I don't - I don't - I don't describe myself to people.

FOX NEWS: You just live your life, right?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Right.

FOX NEWS: Just the one - I have one last thing that I'd - I heard you say. You could direct your answer to that to Sherry (ph). You said that - were an expert marksman. Timothy McVeigh missed his target.

ROBERT NICHOLS: When he said that Janet Reno was his target, his main target, or first target, he missed the mark by a mile.

FOX NEWS: Explain that a little bit.

ROBERT NICHOLS: Well, he didn't even come close to Janet Reno.

FOX NEWS: Do you think that's what his target was?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I don't think so. I don't know if he had a target. Oklahoma City was somebody else's target, in my mind. Timothy McVeigh just got caught up in it.

FOX NEWS: And your son too?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Well, he got dragged into it, because (ph) Timothy actually got caught up in it.

FOX NEWS: Is your son - sons better off with Tim, or is it better that they maybe - that you wish sometimes that he - that they didn't meet up?

FOX NEWS: They never met him?

ROBERT NICHOLS: You can't go back. And no doubt that he'd been better off if he'd never met him, but you can't go back. Yesterday's gone. Tomorrow is what you've got to look forward to.

FOX NEWS: Well, I appreciate your time. I'm sure that - what are your - just in curiosity of my own part, what are your feelings about the media?

ROBERT NICHOLS: I think the media has lost sight of investigative reporting. They remind me of a herd of sheep. And I say that from having been to Oklahoma and to Denver. You can't outrun them. Don't - they don't appear to be thinking for themselves. They're waiting for somebody to give them an idea, and then they expand on it without giving it enough thought.

FOX NEWS: What do you feel you can (INAUDIBLE)? What do you feel for your son these days? I mean, as a father myself, obviously, I've always (ph) (INAUDIBLE). I won't even begin to tell you I know how it feels.

ROBERT NICHOLS: You feel helpless. That's about it; you feel helpless. There's nothing much that you can do. You feel overwhelmed.

FOX NEWS: Is it ever out of your mind?

ROBERT NICHOLS: No, not really. It's not the foremost thing all the time, but it's there.

FOX NEWS: When you talk to him, what do you talk about?

ROBERT NICHOLS: Small talk, because they're listening. You can't talk. You can't ask questions.

FOX NEWS: (INAUDIBLE)

ROBERT NICHOLS: Periodically; not as much as I probably should. But if I go that way, he might not be there. If he comes down here, he don't know where to catch me.

FOX NEWS: You're both working doing things and sure it, you know, keeps you busy. He's funny about the Rita thing though, made me laugh. Rita's a trooper.

ROBERT NICHOLS: He's a little wittier.

FOX NEWS: Would you ever - I mean, would you say that your sons were pretty good kids?

ROBERT NICHOLS: They were.

FOX NEWS: They were just like any other ...

ROBERT NICHOLS: Yeah. They were never in trouble as kids.

FOX NEWS: Just ignore me now. I've got ...

(AUDIO GAP)

JAMES NICHOLS: They can (INAUDIBLE) to agree what they do. It was used in the media, though.

FOX NEWS: Where - who wrote this?

JAMES NICHOLS: Well, this was in the court case, California versus Hooker (ph), 1986. And a doctor testified, a Dr. Hatcher (ph).

FOX NEWS: And you think this would have helped your brother?

FOX NEWS: Well, if he knows all that's being done, you know. But see, that - this brainwashing stuff is used on everyone.

FOX NEWS: Was it used on you?

JAMES NICHOLS: Sure. For instance – I'll give you an example. I was being interrogated that day, April 21st, 1995, by the FBI. They said, you know, you have - "Why do you have $60,000 in cash in your house?" "I don't have." "Yes, you do. We just found $60,000 in cash in your house." "I don't."

FOX NEWS: (INAUDIBLE)

JAMES NICHOLS: Yeah. It didn't show up on inventory sheet. They didn't find it. So did they lie? Did they steal it? So where do you want it? On the other side. Oh, thanks. That was before Terry was even arrested or anything. And they were charged with the Roger Moore (ph) gun robbery of $60,000.

See, they tried it on me. What were they trying to do? If I hadn't of said, no, no, no, you know, you know, convince them that I didn't have $60,000 in the house (INAUDIBLE) gee, you guys are good. You guys are real good.

Terry and I remodeled the house. We never found nothing like that. We'd always hoped to find a big old stash, you know, in the walls. Didn't find it. You guys are in the house one hour and you come up with $60,000. You're good, you know. That's real good.

So it's just - you know, then they say, "Well, it's your brothers." No, I don't think so. When I finally convinced them - I kept on saying, no, no, no - they dropped it. And then months later, it was all they'd done this Roger Moore (ph) gun robbery - $60,000.

Why didn't they say I had $20,000 or $30,000 or $40,000 or $50,000? Why $60,000? See, they were trying to get me in on the scam too. So …

It's just, you know, one thing after another, you know, scam, scam, scam. Just comments in here all (INAUDIBLE). Just think of Waco, Texas.

OK, (INAUDIBLE) right here. I was arrested at home, at work, you know. (INAUDIBLE) just to ad lib it a little bit to make it sound like, you know. So don't take these comments too bad, but these here, you know, (INAUDIBLE) the victim and encourage them to ask - seek your admission and approval. Get permission to do everything, probably (ph) reason. And that's what they do. It's a ...

FOX NEWS: Do you feel like they're still watching you?

JAMES NICHOLS: Oh, sure, sure, sure. It's just - I haven't caught them lately, but just last week neighbor go, "Hey, who's that sitting down in your driveway down there?" Oh, I didn't notice. So I grab my binoculars, look down there, there's just changing - exchanging maybes. They felt somebody was just dropping off kids, you know.

Hey, come here, Laddie. Laddie, come on. Come here. Sit.

I said, I don't know. So I looked down like this, I had to really look, you know. Oh, yes. Got my binoculars and looked until (ph) I couldn't see anyone because tinted windows.

Buddy. Buddy.

Well, I went in the other room and (INAUDIBLE). Here's the license number - sitting there smoking a cigarette. (INAUDIBLE) so I took his - couldn't see anything else so (INAUDIBLE). But he told me, "It's your buddy sitting down there." (INAUDIBLE) '97 - '97-'98 whatever.

And click, the phone comes on. Somebody's monitoring my house. They do the same thing to your place. They can do it to anyone unless you unplug it.

I never had much of an opinion, you know, didn't know what was going on. But, you know, in certain circumstances, maybe, but look, when there's a doubt, you know, hey, there's too much doubt here, there's too much question, there's too much - the truth hasn't been brought out.

You know, we have to look at McVeigh and the Oklahoma bombing. We have to look at James Earl Ray, Dr. Martin Luther King. Now, he didn't even have a trial, did he? He just pled guilty. Right there's what they'd done to him, brainwashed him. He confessed, and they convicted him in front of a judge; sentenced him to life in prison. Took a long time, did about 30 years. He finally got an attorney that, hey, they finally got permission to test the bullet against the gun, and guess what? It didn't match, did it? That man died in prison, didn't he? And he - so that proves he didn't do the shooting, because the gun didn't match the bullets. Who did the shooting? For what reason?

You know, it took the King family 30 years to realize that, hey, maybe he ain't the one that really done it. And, of course, you know, he needed a liver transplant - wasn't that - I think what he was. They wasn't going to let him have one. Hurry up and die, would you? Hurry up and die so we can just close the book on this.

Same thing with McVeigh. When he's dead, the book is closed; it's a mute issue. Who's got enough gump (ph) to stand up and do anything then? How long before we know the truth in that one? We'll never know.

Like the Kennedy assassination. Why has the - why has the records been sealed for 75 years? Because the American people can't take the truth? Wrong. Because if the American people knew the truth, what was going on, there'd be a lot of people - politicians, judges, prosecutors, and a lot of other people in prison or facing what McVeigh's facing.

But in 75 years, the Kennedy assassination - it'll all just be a part of history, and anybody and everybody that was involved in it will be so old or dead it'll be just a part of history, won't it?

Great scenario, isn't it?

(AUDIO GAP)

JAMES NICHOLS: And they don't know who took the picture, what time, what day. But every other picture they have is who done it, it's all centered, very professional, except this one. Talk about a coincidence.

FOX NEWS: You're right.

Tell me about the day that you and, apparently, Terry and Tim were watching what was going on in Waco?

JAMES NICHOLS: Tim was in his room listening to the radio. And, of course, that's in direct contradiction of the book. And I told - the authors called and told me, and I told them exactly what I'm going to tell you, but they don't listen very well. That's why I say the book is not right. I was there. They weren't.

Tim was in his room listening to his radio, and Terry and I was out in the shed working on a tractor - working on machinery. Tim come out - running out the shed - "They're burning Waco. They're burning it."

So we run in the house, turned the TV on, and watched it. And we all stood there in total disbelief because of what was happening. We discussed what was going on there. And, you know, we just couldn't believe it. Nobody was coming out.

And I can say it now, but at the time we didn't have it all figured out, that they used CS gas. And CS gas is - I've been told isn't even allowable in international warfare, according to the war rules. But yet we can use it on domestic citizens. It's great stuff.

And of course, Janet el Renial (ph) - or Janet Reno, said, "Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know." Oh, yes, they did. It was all planned.

And if they're going to gas a building - now, this is what we surmised while we watched it. The wind's blowing at a very brisk rate, you know; very brisk. Probably one of the windiest days of the entire siege. Why do you pick a day the wind's blowing to gas a claptrap building? Something's wrong. This isn't right.

And then they're poking holes in with these armored vehicles, you know, whatever they was. They weren't poking little holes. They were poking big holes, tearing the sides of the building off, the corners, crushing the stairways, opening the building up upwind and putting this CS gas in. And it's flammable gas.

And then a fire breaks out. Gee, guess what? They just created a wind tunnel to burn everything downwind. Looks awful suspicious to me.

FOX NEWS: Did you talk with Timothy or Terry about what you thought you guys would do to - I mean, what your feeling were about that?

JAMES NICHOLS: Well, everybody was talking about it, you know, at those times. And I just said the idea I had was 5,000 to 10,000 citizens should go down there, unarmed, get between the - and march against the FBI, because they were doing nothing but being a bully. But the government can never back down. The government is never wrong. They're the almighty, omni-right (ph) all the time, aren't they? No.

The government went in there with an unlawful warrant. BATF had a warrant that had child molesting on it. BATF doesn't report child molesting, you know, child abuse. Come on. It was just a show. It was a show, and they had the cameras right there, didn't they, to make a show and say, "Hey, we need more money."

Well, things went bad for them, didn't they? And there again, after the building burned, part of the evidence disappeared. The big front doors, the double doors – steel doors, they didn't burn. They disappeared. The government lost them again, didn't they? Why? Because it shows the bullet holes going in, not out. They had to lose that. That's why they burned the place. They burned all the evidence.

Why did they bury the Murrah building in approximately 35 days - coincidentally, the day I was released from prison? Coincident? Who knows?

FOX NEWS: Did your father talked about that Timothy McVeigh had been down in Waco handing out fliers, and that he thinks the FBI then followed him to the …

JAMES NICHOLS: Well, he was. A couple days after Waco he was in Florida at his sister's place, and he drove over there because he heard about it. He wanted to check it out for himself. He was there selling bumper stickers, you know, "Is your church BATF approved?" You know, and different things like that.

I said to Tim, I said, "You know they videotaped you, they checked you out, they checked your driver's license, they checked your plate on your car. They know who you are, what your record is. Don't worry, they check everybody out," plainclothes officers.

And he came directly from Waco to my house. And when the FBI was interrogating me on April 21st of '95, they had told me things that I had done two years earlier I didn't remember. I shook my head and I said to myself, "Wait a minute. Somebody actually had to be physically standing, sitting around here watching us for them to see this."

So I came to the conclusion that somebody had been watching us for two years. And that's what I came to the conclusion of, that they'd been watching us since Tim came from Waco.

FOX NEWS: Why you?

JAMES NICHOLS: Well, because that's where Tim went. So that was just ...

FOX NEWS: But why were they watching Tim in the first place, do you think?

JAMES NICHOLS: Because he was too outspoken. He was – you know, everybody there at Waco was, yeah, yeah, yeah, get them, get them get them - moron mentality. So it's - you know, they didn't like that.

We hang on a second here?

FOX NEWS: We're almost ...

FOX NEWS: That's it.

JAMES NICHOLS: Yeah, I've got them all packed down.

FOX NEWS: You ready to go?

JAMES NICHOLS: Yeah.

FOX NEWS: When's the last time you talked to your brother?

JAMES NICHOLS: Couple months ago. He called me first part of April – my birthday. My birthday. Called me twice. I answered the phone both times, and we couldn't connect. Why? That's happened many times.

FOX NEWS: What's the last conversation you've had with him, and what did you talk about?

JAMES NICHOLS: Just talking about his attorneys and this and that and what's going on. You know, I'm not going to give any specifics.

FOX NEWS: Do you - are you worried about his trial coming up in Oklahoma City?

JAMES NICHOLS: I'm concerned. As you know – maybe you don't know – but last summer the prosecution accused the judge they had of being biased against the prosecution in favor of the defense team. So they filed charges and got the judge kicked off the case in Oklahoma. And they both got - they got another judge and they both agreed, yeah, yeah, this guy's OK, you know.

And then in October, the defense team filed motions on the prosecutors, got the entire team kicked off last October. Gee, what a coincidence. Who's in favor of who here? Because of the shenanigans, the illegal acts and the criminal activity of the prosecutors in Oklahoma. They're scum. They're scum. They abduct (ph) - if you're going to get the entire prosecuting team kicked off the case, you're going to have found something, aren't you?

FOX NEWS: Are you - are you worried about him being executed?

JAMES NICHOLS: Well, I'm concerned, because it could happen. Only time will tell. We have to have a little faith, and hopefully, you know, things will work out.

FOX NEWS: Do you think it's against his constitutional rights to be tried both federally and at the state level?

JAMES NICHOLS: The Constitution says you're tried once for the act – only one time for the act. Doesn't make a distinction between federal, state, local, township, village. When are we going to get down to where, OK, Oklahoma got their chance; now is the city going to get their chance? Then maybe the county and the township. When are we going to get to that status, you know?

They aren't - they aren't obeying the Constitution anyhow.

FOX NEWS: Are you saying that your brother and Timothy McVeigh have nothing to do with what happened in Oklahoma City?

JAMES NICHOLS: Well, if they did, where's the evidence? There isn't any. They've never proved what blew up the building, and that's impossible. That is impossible, because the government chose to prove nothing. They get McVeigh convicted on hearsay and gossip and innuendoes and emotions.

And with Terry's trial in Denver, his attorney quit, just quit, because Christmas was coming up. I don't know his reason. He was winning the case, and all of a sudden he quit. Gee, why?

FOX NEWS: Do you think ...

JAMES NICHOLS: They made - they made mistake after mistake that reasonable people wouldn't even make. Why? They didn't put Dr. Whitehurst (ph) on the witness list. Why? All because we had another agent (ph) of saying the same thing until he got to court; then he changed his story.

FOX NEWS: Do you think McVeigh didn't - do you know of McVeigh threatening your family at any point to get Terry to do anything?

JAMES NICHOLS: The statement that somebody made there in the "Primetime Live" show or in the book or whatever came out, that wasn't meant to mean me, his brothers and sisters or anything, or his family. What was meant there was his wife and daughter.

Let's go with that scenario. That's a good question. So Tim makes a threat. Let's just - this is just an example. He makes a threat. "I'm going to do something to your wife, you know. I'll" - you know, whatever the threat is. "You've got to help me."

So they - I'll give an example, make the bomb to Gary Lake State Park - which never happened. It never happened, because there's no evidence of it. Never happened there. But it never happened.

Now, Tim takes - heads down Highway 77, supposedly. Now, if there's a threat and Tim's working alone, the only person that can enforce a threat is Tim McVeigh, right, unless somebody else is working with him. But he says there isn't.

So Terry goes in the opposite direction and goes home. All it takes is one phone call. "Hey, there's a guy in a Ryder truck, his name is Timothy McVeigh. He's got a bomb in the back. He's - I don't know where he's going, but he's headed down Highway 77 with a bomb in the back. He's going to hurt somebody." Click.

End of story, wouldn't it? Threat all over, isn't it? Didn't happen. Terry doesn't take to threats. I don't take to threats.

FOX NEWS: How is Terry's wife and child doing?

JAMES NICHOLS: They're down there around Oklahoma City. Now, I'm not going to give any specifics.

FOX NEWS: Do you keep in touch with them or not?

JAMES NICHOLS: They keep in touch with them, my mother and my sister. You know, I'm busy a lot.

FOX NEWS: Are you going to go to the preliminary hearing?

JAMES NICHOLS: I doubt it, because I'm too busy, you know. I have my life, you know, and it's tough enough. This is prime time for me.

FOX NEWS: Do you - do you hate the government?

JAMES NICHOLS: Do I hate the government? No, I don't hate the government. But we have to look at it in a realistic way. Government at its best is evil. Government at its best is evil. At its worst it's a tyrant, a tyrannical force, and that's what we have. Government agents are not responsible. Government officers are not responsible. They lie. They coerce witnesses.

And I'm an example of that. I can give you an example. I have never been so coerced into trying to admit something in this bombing. I was held for one hour in the car after they took me to the county jail, April 21st, '95. The one agent in there kept saying, "Look, Nichols, this is the way it is. First one to the well gets the water. You told us a lot, but we know you know more. You're lying to us. You know more." I laughed in their face, because I didn't know nothing. I had a clear conscience. I still do.

But I've never been so coerced in my life to make up a story to say what they wanted. And apparently, Tim McVeigh and Michael Fortier, especially Michael Fortier, did. I wouldn't play their game of coercion. Throw him in the prison, he'll talk. No. I didn't do anything. I didn't know anything.

FOX NEWS: Are you proud to be a U.S. citizen?

JAMES NICHOLS: I'm an American. I was born and raised here. Proud to be of that. But proud to be of our government - it's going downhill, as our forefathers warned us a long time ago. Eternal vigilance is what's needed to keep a handle on government officials. They've taken our right - they take our rights and turned them into privileges.

I've a very good example of that here in this state. Here in the next month or so, two months, the right to carry law. They're taking our right, our God-given, constitutionally guaranteed right and turned it into a privilege where the state takes the right and issues permits and licenses and regulates them as they want to. What do you call that? That's a tyrant. It's control.

FOX NEWS: Is the government to blame for what happened in Oklahoma City?

JAMES NICHOLS: They have a hand in it. They had prior knowledge. They used it - they have used the victims. They have used the media. They've used everybody, because people are just indispensable to the government, because somebody just happened to have this antiterrorism legislation sitting on the shelf, didn't they? They didn't write it up after the bombing. It was sitting there before, didn't it - wasn't it? Twenty thousand pages. Why?

We've got terrorism in this country, because the government sponsors terrorism. The government, the U.S. government in this country, the former administration, has made us so hated in the world by bombing aspirin factories in the Sudan with no just cause, bombing a Chinese embassy, "Oh, we didn't know," with the best intelligence in the world. Come on. Are you people morons or just incompetent? Take your choice.

You have to look at, who benefited from this bombing? Who benefited – because there's always a beneficiary in every situation. The victims didn't benefit. They were used, and they're still being used. And the American people have never benefited. But every single law enforcement agency in this country has benefited because of the Oklahoma City bombing because of the antiterrorism legislation was enacted. And it would have never been enacted if Oklahoma City hadn't happened.

Let me give you an example. If I strike you in your arm, your leg, your extremities - and let’s just use the body as an example as the body of the country. That's usually not a life-threatening situation, is it? I cut you, I can shoot you in the arm. You could die from it, but it's not always a life-threatening situation. But if I go for the heart, the heartland, that's devastating, isn't it?

We don't have terrorism in the heartland of the country. We have it in New York. We have it in the East Coast, the West Coast, because those are ports of entry. We don't expect that in the heartland. Why? It's all a psychological game that the government plays - the unseen rulers in this country use against the people.

FOX NEWS: How hard is it to know your brother is in prison and in your mind is innocent?

JAMES NICHOLS: Well, when he takes control of his affairs and really gets down to it - challenge the government in the proper ways and with the proper questions, I think he'll prevail. But it takes a lot to do that, because he's so embroiled in such a controversy now and such a mix-up and such a mess.

FOX NEWS: What do you think is the biggest misconception about your family now to the - to the American people, from the media, from the government?

JAMES NICHOLS: Well, the media has a very important job. First Amendment, to inform the American people. Not to tell them what to think or how to think; it is to preside - provide unbiased information, the facts. And that hasn't happened in this case. CNN cooperated with the government - started the rumor of an ANFO bomb. Yet, six years later they can't prove it. There never was any proof. Why? It's all hearsay and gossip. Where's the facts?

FOX NEWS: If it's only hearsay and gossip, why was Timothy McVeigh convicted?

JAMES NICHOLS: Hearsay and gossip. How can you convict someone of a bombing when you don't prove they blew up a bomb? You can't get past the first question and do anything else until you prove that. Isn't that how a court of law's supposed work? That isn't.

I mean, court testimony will show in my brother's case how government agents coerced, threatened, intimidated, and got people to change their stories, and they themselves changed their stories.

They got caught in federal court fabricating evidence on the so-called Roger Moore (ph) gun robbery. There was no such gun robbery. It was just another avenue to go down to say someone's evil, someone done something. "Oh, look. He done this, he done that, he done this. He must be guilty of something," to persuade the jury. Because it's psychological warfare.

I have a five-page little article on 16 ways how to break (ph) prison. I wish I had it with me. It's back at the house. I thought you was going to be at the house today. If you stop back later I'll give it to you, because it's very interesting. You can see how - this is of a doctor that's testified in court - how this works.

I was aware of this. Terry and Tim were not. It's a lot of difference.

FOX NEWS: Is Tim McVeigh a bad person?

JAMES NICHOLS: If you got to know him you wouldn't - without knowing what he's been accused of - you'd say no. He speaks the truth, and a lot of people don't like the truth. Truth hurts a lot.

(INAUDIBLE) Tim gave me in payment for a little car that he bought from me. I haven't given it back yet. And it's been proven – and Tim has personally told me over the phone – that the gun was not stolen. They've checked it out all the way back to the importation into this country. And the FBI knows it's not stolen. Yet they won't give it back. Isn't that a felony? They stole my property and won't give it back. It's being held as evidence. It's not evidence. It's never used in court.

FOX NEWS: Do you sometimes feel like what's happened to your brother could very easily have been you? That could be you sitting down there. The way things have turned out that day when they arrested you ...

JAMES NICHOLS: I was in that situation, because they arrested me before they arrested Terry. And everybody knows and can go back and think – and I can remember very well that on Thursday, April 20th, it was on the radio that yes, there's a Michigan connection. There again, the government's timelines don't add up. We knew nothing about Timothy McVeigh until April - 10:30 Central Time, April 21st, 1995.

If they knew nothing, then how did they get a Michigan connection the day before? So they lie. But don't - people don't want to listen to that.

And if they - if that statement that they say is true, how could they arrange a raid, such a big raid, in approximately - now (ph) it's 11:30 Michigan time - in 2.5 hours on my place pulling in the driveway with the people land equipment? Didn't happen.

FOX NEWS: Were you set up?

JAMES NICHOLS: They knew ahead of time. Who signed my name into the Great Western Motel in Junction City, Kansas, approximately 10 days before the bombing? Somebody signed me in to a motel to place me out there. But I wasn't there, because I was here, and I've got all kinds of witnesses and receipts to prove it.

When they finally found that out, they dropped me like a hot potato.

FOX NEWS: Your brother turned himself in?

JAMES NICHOLS: My brother did not turn himself in. Where did you get that hearsay and gossip? Again, see, hearsay and gossip. When you go somewhere, you hear your name on a radio. He heard his name on the radio.

Terry wasn't - Herington Police Department, which is approximately seven blocks from his house - Herington, Kansas - at somewhere around 3:00, 3:30 Kansas time, Central Time. That's four - 4:30 Michigan time - he could have watched the raid on my house for two hours, hopped in his pickup with his wife and his daughter and went to the police department and said, "Hey, I hear you're looking for me. Here I am. Somebody wants to talk to me, here I am. Talk to me. You know, what's going on? I hear my name on the radio. What's going on?"

FOX NEWS: Do you think that says right in itself for him to that - to hear his name on the radio and go in and say, "Hey, are you looking for me?" Is that - if he was guilty, why would he - why would he walk in asking why they're asking about him?

JAMES NICHOLS: Right. Right. Is that the actions of a guilty man? No. Does a guilty man buy a house just recently before that to settle down, you know? It's not the actions of a guilty man.

You - what most people don't know is that the - he went there, and the chief called the FBI hotline. This was told to us by his attorney. And he said - he left a message he's got this Nichols guy there. He wants to talk to you. Call me back.

Between an hour, hour and a half later, the FBI calls back. "Chief, it's the FBI." "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got this Nichols guy here. What do you - you know, he wants to talk to you. You want to talk to him? We got him here." "Aren't you being held hostage, chief?"

The chief didn't like that. He says, "Look I got this guy here. What do you want? Come on in and talk to him." "Chief, don't you understand? Aren't you being held hostage?"

What does that sound like to you? They look outside. The police department is surrounded with SWAT teams and helicopters. What did they have in mind? Terry went there unarmed, peaceably, asking questions - "Here I am. What do you want?" And that's the kind of treatment he gets.

FOX NEWS: How do you think your brother is doing now?

JAMES NICHOLS: Well, it's tough in there because he's an outdoor person, you know? But you have to accept where you're at and just work the way out - work things out, try to get things straightened out.

FOX NEWS: What are your hopes now for him?

JAMES NICHOLS: Well, to - his attorneys seem to be doing a pretty good job - to be exonerated. And if he's exonerated, then we'll go back federal, and they'll have to look at it, won't they? All we want is the truth. Is the truth too much to ask for? It seems to be from the government. All they want to do is cover up and lie. And if they're not involved in coverup, what are they hiding? Why are they hiding evidence? That in itself says (ph) in the coverup.

FOX NEWS: Just one more. Why is Tim saying - or help out the authors - I mean, why - he obviously - he did some things to Roman (ph), and like you said, that he knew that they were maybe exaggerating some. But why did he give them the opportunity to do that?

JAMES NICHOLS: He - it's supposed to be an autobiography. His book is supposed to be an autobiography. Now, you get in there and you get talking to people, you know, one question leads to another. Do you think he's in a normal state of mind? Do you know what's happened to him?

When you see this five pages of "Psychological Warfare: 16 Ways to Break a Person," you'll understand a lot better, because it's just a way to get to you. Who knows what's been done to him? I don't think he's in a normal state of mind, you know. He has supposedly said all these things. Have you seen him say it? It's only the authors' words, isn't it?

FOX NEWS: Do you think he - many people have said he's getting exactly what he wants. Do you think that's true?

FOX NEWS: Good question, because in the book, it's in there, and the authors were on "Primetime Live" with all - "Oh, yeah. Tim discussed it with us. He wanted a - he wanted to get caught. He wanted to get caught for this bombing. And he wanted a suicide by cop deluxe special package," right?

Gee, he had the perfect the opportunity with Trooper Hanger (ph), when he got stopped with no plate on his car. He had his .45 right there. Yet he was very peaceful. He tried to talk his way out of it. Why? He was trying to get away. I mean, he was trying to go about his normal activity.

Was he - if he had just killed hundreds of people, the cop – or have a shootout with him and - suicide by a cop deluxe special package, right?

After this Trooper Hanger (ph) searched him, took his weapon from him, told him he's under arrest, he says, "Oh, what about this knife?" Trooper Hanger (ph) didn't do a very good of searching him, did he? So how honest is the man? Did you see it? You know, he searched him down, took his weapon from him, didn't know he had a knife. Tim pulled it out. "Do you want this too?" You know, it doesn't make any sense, does it? Those aren't the actions of a maniac terrorist.

We've all been manipulated. We've all been used.

FOX NEWS: We're just about out of tape.

FOX NEWS: OK. (INAUDIBLE) when people come.

END