Gadgets and Games 9/18

" And good afternoon everyone welcome to gadgets and games on this Friday afternoon I'm your host Clayton Morris it is 2 PM here eastern time you can always pick this up on iTunes as a video podcast download thank you so much for making us. One of the top video podcast downloads we really appreciated -- world so thank you so much. And for all of our fox -- those -- appreciate that we've got some great guests today on this program we had a little little breaking news just happened a little while ago so we will get to that. In a few seconds first don't want introduced to my left lands you'll -- is the editor in chief of PC mag dot com. PC magazine has always wins -- see -- thanks have maintenance. Next to him is of course the that the lovely and talented. He says he's taken over your title not a -- Ross Rubin is coarse grid technology analyst from NPD group thank you so much Ross thanks to see you thank you for it thanks for joining us and via Skype right over my left shoulder here from GD GT one of the founders is Ryan Block -- feeling you're in San Francisco right. And in San Francisco yes and we haven't had Ryan on recently we had that Peter on last week of course I haven't had chance tell you congratulations on the want to DD DT -- than a bang up job. -- and it is all -- your live apple coverage from the from the from the music event last week was fantastic you guys did a great job and that sort of universally heralded as having done a great job. You know they did it -- it's -- over at their fingertips. Because -- a great job so we were just talking here before we went to the air and will will kind of throw this out there for -- get all perspectives on it Google finally. Just few moments before we went on the air releasing -- new their confidential FCC letter. About Apple's rejection of their Google Voice application which they had submitted to the to the app store. And a lot of the stuff that they had initially put out there was redacted. Or held confidential and so we were curious. At the end of the day apple said that no they had not rejected the Google Voice application that in fact they were still reviewing it. But what we're learning now from this release from Google is that in fact they're saying that apple did in fact. Reject the application in fact some juicy tidbits in this thing too which is that Phil Schiller himself. Apparently according to reports was the one who single handedly -- it. He broke the news on July 7 two Google. And told them to Google's VP of engineering research -- used -- he said that part of the reason apple rejected. Google latitude also is that they were actually afraid -- replace core maps applications within -- within. With any app store and so they were worried that this would. The place the dialing features of some of the core functionality of the dialer for the iPhone -- we make at a plant would view your initial."

" And well my initial reaction Apple's playing hardball and this is what they do I know that they -- that somebody still evaluating it I imagine that's the guy in the basement with the -- stabler who is no longer working there. I was so that I could. -- They pick and choose. I think they see Google as a major competitor and mobile application space -- and core functionality even though Google Voice. There's no way competes with the -- IP it's up."

" It's not making the call it's kind of handle and some."

" Well and -- they were worried about. They were worried about the visual voicemail market that was one of the issues they were initially were -- yet as part of have been of the opinion the reason why a apple created the app store any consistent that they did. The way they -- is so they could have this kind of control and this is exactly the kind of controlled that me being one half out over all there. -- there you -- system ended -- things that they created this is this is how they work. So it's not like there's some surprise that you know apple saw something coming down I that they weren't entirely stoked about. And decided but the kibosh I mean this is what they do you know it's it's it's -- the -- the at this -- it."

" Yeah Matt Buchanan cross over it. Over his motives since he called them basically liar liar I mean it's basically like they say they didn't reject the application. Flat out this -- the still reviewing -- Google says they did. -- line here and I you know I mean that's that's the come down to semantics I mean you know they could have rejected the first iteration of the program but we've certainly seen instances where. Apple. Turns developer away and -- to make changes and and revisions and then things -- submitted and approved. So you know perhaps technically it it has not been rejected but that. Iteration of it was in lance -- one of these two was a core functionality and maps function for Google latitude so we've -- considerable latitude that was also rejected and but that apple was worried about the core functionality -- the maps application on the iPhone. I'm sorry is in the apps applications a Google a Google aspect and can what -- missing here."

" You know thing is it's these are not questionable applications you were talking about how there's -- situation we've seen things rejected an accepted them to be rejected again and it's been. You know scary crazy weird games you know babies being -- of questionable taste and editors."

" These are solid high functioning applications. That. That really ought to be in the app store. You know whatever."

" Yeah what's. Google is now telling us that apple says it's -- you know it's between two people and it is a level of interpretation I don't know."

" How -- you go behind that what the technical background might. But I can't find."

" And reject this except that they feel like assumption of competitive initiative that they just don't want."

" one of the things that Matt Buchanan just brought up in his piece all the you all this information kind of coming up fast and furious his interpretation of what was that it's fears fear on Apple's part. Think that's a valid argument."

" I think it certainly part of -- I mean you know as as I just mentioned. The reason that they kind of gave themselves this outlook is so they don't have to answer to anybody. When they don't want to do something that they don't -- Unfortunately. Be that didn't work as well for them as they thought -- it and now they actually get to answer this is the federal government the FCC. Is now demanding answers from apple and I mean obviously there is their duty they're Baston and -- I wouldn't say that there capitulated. But it -- certainly let through a number of applications since the SEC inquiry. Then I wouldn't have thought they would have ever let let through war rhapsody perhaps some mindless modify. The commodore emulator which was taken down but not because of The -- So yeah pretty clearly apple is getting put in a corner here and there is starting to find out there that they can't be apple. And -- in the public sector. In every single way that they wanna live."

" you're -- and well just kind of curious whether or not you know it's apple is sometimes complying but that does the government really have a leg to stand on -- this is. There is a competitive landscape here there are other there are other platforms other -- stores other avenues. And simply because of market share now it seems like. Federal government is inserting themselves into this process not nothing that I agree with -- these apps from coming in and I think it's totally arbitrary the process."

" But I'm I'm kind of interest and look how far this is going to go if apple just going to kind of keep."

" Complying so they can stay away from a true you know anti competitive investigation. And and then where -- that now."

" Well -- oh they can put it this way if Microsoft which is not even you know. By any stretch of the imagination consider the market leader. In this particular market. And in fact many people despite kind of consider -- behind these days a move millions of units a year I mean you know they they don't compare to rim. They don't have the mind share apple they don't have the the the kind of love from the community as -- suffered -- try something like this today right now. -- And reject applications. From Google. Because it seems like they might be -- competitive. They would be brought up an antitrust charges there's just no question they knew they would be in and the government loves to be trust buster -- Yeah so you know apple is not going to be able to do this -- And a certain where they're gonna have to accept the reality is out of the market that is you know you do you have to kind of -- there or you're gonna get your hands."

" Russert since I you know I -- personal collapse of common that was essentially part of Apple's response and that if you. Want this Google Voice experience you can get it on android you know your. There has been an -- release that are for the palm web the last we're very early in the evolution of these apps stores and it's going to take some time to find out. Who's being restrictive and and who's being more open in terms of letting different kinds of functionality onto the device. Somebody writes in a chat room."

" It's proving apple denied it actually. Actually help get the -- approved is proving apple denied it actually -- get an -- approved I got quite out yet right so that they have shut the -- on them that they they. They stood up -- you know apple has clearly said -- we have rejecting -- outright according to this document. And yeah that could change things very quickly up and say okay AEA -- we. We were -- policy we said we're just looking at and now as of tomorrow or as of tonight. It's on -- so yes I think I think that."

" You know one of the things we -- of course is Apple's very concerned about the way in which their products look -- a user interface -- fair there in the user experiences and we know that Google design. Is you know something to be desired and so I think the worry from apple could be that you have a dialer that you know is built and in Google's own image might not live up to the standards from which -- want. Of course there is the web -- right now. You can jump on you know you can use to do with web -- which I use my iPhone now if you if you invite invited to -- who pointed -- That's -- yeah. I think another slowdown people who are not allowed to use of voice look there any other thoughts on that how to move off that the Ryan if -- any final thoughts on that otherwise all we'll move on."

" I mean look this is going to be an ongoing thing I don't think they were gonna happen at a resolution on this today or tomorrow I'm. You my feeling is that. Google is eventually going to have as a group in one former another. Because now that it's got the government's attention they're not just gonna go. Right so hopefully this -- it's a good result original Knuble."

" I just one closing comment you know -- it's it's really any different from one. Verizon has been doing for years and years with a group on its feature phones work has complete control over what apps -- are allowed on the phone --"

" Yeah I mean sometimes it's just that's -- you -- you people actually care about this product. And -- ability -- really care about group you know it's not exactly like this is a focal point industry markets and bad and then there's a lot of consumer. I'm passionate about."

" Well we got a lot to get to today and we get through the list yourself sort of came out of nowhere just a few minutes ago somebody at the cover that I wanna mention that we are gonna be showing off here sitting right next to me here which is the dream screen that we have -- this last night from each. Brand new. Device you can pick it up at the tablet you can -- It's probably. So what we'll talk about that we'll face -- videos and hands on last night we'll talk about how relevant that could be in your life and -- ultimately -- play with that and have some fun with that but first course the big news of the week who is the Zune 82. The question can Zune HD from Microsoft compete with the iPod touch the iPod nano that's -- people -- asking. Let's take a look at this bad boy. You have once for each of us I have wanted -- in your -- Beautiful. Oh oh LEV screen. Of course right the first thing you're gonna notice is that just how beautiful you know the blacks aren't colors on the screen -- Everyone's been of course talking about the great user interface and that's one of the things I think we even saw. Maybe apple -- you with -- tip of the hat to -- the iTunes nine -- iTunes nine iteration taking from the Zune marketplace. Some of the bigger icons that -- in which music is obviously come back to the four in -- front of this device. Course HD radio which is really nice and I love the the UI on the HD ready to scroll to bottom finger right across. Right across to -- station. It also has HD video outputs you can actually put it in the dock in my right there's no actual ZW -- Hi Def television and that's something the iPod cannot do. Back to just touch up as you enter into each of the different. Sub categories here video. Completed videos here and then as you wanna. What is it back to the front you just have to toast -- And slide right back up it's very intuitive that's another thing I -- just Detroit back series ideas are right. Roundtable were your impressions of -- Zune HD."

" Gorgeous yeah and it's and it's pitiful lot thinner than I thought a lot to do it very light it is an excellent job of this is -- access for said that it's the best. Media player you can get that's not on the iTunes plus yeah and he which is which is. Right there I don't know I don't know how to say -- except that it would look look look it's so good. But is such it's such a big hurdle to get past you know he was influence other's products the mind share. That the iPod has an apple --"

" as I was sitting at a meeting this morning I was playing with it and all producers who you know they're not very they're not in the tech world -- certainly don't know is it always at the Zune and I was surprised you were aware of it again you know one of the great things about -- the subscription service. You know. Any of this music you want and I think if you listen to Bob -- suddenly want. You know every Bob Dylan song -- it's sort askew and allows you to grab it grab all of it with a beautiful album art in all the lyrics mean the subscriptions a big deal about it. Well absolutely and you know this is something that Microsoft has been putting forth in the marketplace and -- launch soon it's a big believer in subscription music. But it's been a tough sell for the consumer in -- particularly in this economy. To to ask for fifteen dollars a month or write or add value I mean they're delivering a lot of value. But but it's an education that is it Ryan -- people want to own their music in is that one of the things that holds people back from being so a lured by the subscription service."

" It's regarded any people who use subscription really like it and you subscription for years and all my friends -- it. We're -- very fond of that. But it is and learning and and it is it is a very different kind of value proposition. Ten buying and owning your -- to speak and even not is actually fairly recent. For our -- you know it's only in the last year's and they open up by -- sent -- UTU start -- downloads. Without DR. But it's -- is point you know this being the best media player that's not in the iTunes ecosystem that's not made by apple basically. Yeah although you know. And although there are really great devices out there it's still not -- all I mean you look at Apple they own more than 75% of the industry. -- I mean they're basically monopoly. Yeah and -- zone has what 2% in the marketplace or less than art and yeah hey -- and speak to your currency and assuming it seems like it's slipping a -- I took these -- and a cast of equality but -- I mean this as they're now their only device they don't have a small. Nano competitor got something you know under 200 dollars. -- yeah maybe they -- as a stocking stuffer. -- Your portable media player it's it's it's hard they're not on the mask. And they -- description so I mean there -- a lot of things about this then I can see heat immediate kind of a difficult sell enough for most users and."

" Fairness to Microsoft we should point out that you don't have to have a subscription cameras with. And still by MP3 tracks and put them on the player but -- that's very well integrated with that the elections date as being part. You know can be big part of that of course -- incentives subscription point that. There's a perception problem -- you know fifty dollars a month seems like -- but. You know on iTunes is spending my kind of salary in what you're just you're throwing 99 cents here and -- these these micro mini payments and you kind of don't notice they end up sometimes on the same thing. But it's you know is -- fantastic player I wish they had made it 199 because according to apple. That's the magic price point. You know Phil Schiller stood up the stage and and came up with this number because they have been why suddenly now the match but it's the magic number so I -- those very funny but there is something about that we're seeing and over and over again. And I think that Microsoft could do a few things like that you -- to -- up."

" Actually what we're seeing is kind of a bifurcation in the media player market. Where we're seeing a lot of activity in a lot of growth and some 100 -- segment that's where. For example SanDisk is -- right now and then there -- these high end devices like the touch the Zune the Archos device which are now where we're gonna play address later. They're really becoming more of these mobile Internet kinds of of platforms and as a browser. On this device so. In in some ways these high end media players have. Outgrown media player functionality."

" While others say that apple made a preemptive move during last week's event where they spent most of the time talking about the iPod touch as a gaming device immediately that sets it apart from the -- Steve -- seeing it. -- your world in that direction that this device so much a part of all the games that you can get to play and it's designed for that yes the hammered on that over and over again action. I thought I was suddenly and."

" Different another heady time -- because we know now we now know that there should have been and -- those lump sum of these -- we're gonna talk about number of these different you know the iPod touch the camera was better -- the -- the the iPod touch what's more of a competitor here so -- into one as we're having this discussion because. We now know there was going to be a camera on the iPod touch we've seen the terror down we know factually there should have been a camera in there there was not they pulled it the last minute probably. And there wasn't so we now know factually evidence stands and speaks for itself regardless of what was said yes there was supposed to be a camera in there. And you can't fake that kind of stuff I mean right -- I mean that's not here."

" Yeah I know you -- mean though the iPod touch acumen a couple of months ago. I reached nearly -- viewers sure it was actually real. They opened it up they showed. Boards inside the actual device and doesn't match the boards that are inside the units now accepted that it. So you can I think that it's it's the new media and aperture Yahoo!'s as the camera and there we -- we know we're gonna know why the camera -- we know that there is supposed to be in there and we can presume based on that there will be -- in the future."

" Exactly and so you know we were hearing rumors of course that we do you -- refresh soon and you know I don't I don't see that happening before you know this year anyway and I kind of -- product -- a week later -- pissed off. Now you know how to make I just ball on what are we going to go buy another one now the two weeks later with a camera and -- because that's the run up to the tablet the other two yeah. So all right the nano of course we saw come out camera it's been about a week now since we've got to play with banana with a video in it so and I said this. After I got my hands on this and I said you know to me. I know it was talking about the iPod touch is a competitor here but to me what struck me immediately. Is -- this isn't a competitor for the iPod touch it's a competitor for the nano -- my wrong."

" Not elegant and I feel like it's in it's designed especially. Its its really targeting you know again dismantle have a touch screen. The matter it doesn't have a touched me I think that I think that is so fundamental to the operation of the device that that puts it in different class."

" You know it doesn't have the app store right -- it's a music player. You know it it we don't have the app store it's and it's -- it seems to be a music centric device with video added for fun we'll."

" You can -- I mean you can get little gains on your nano you can't get."

" Yeah -- a certain level of stuff that you can get for the now I know because my daughter's bought it I mean just kind of -- to the limit of what you can actually do with that you can get also you can on the -- and you get a few stacks games in basic games as well right that's the day."

" I think the bottom line here -- is -- it's got a browser and the browsers kind of link to dividing line for connected device. Either have a browser or you know and if you have a browser that's a pretty -- DO you can check email. And I don't believe that's in the you know emails while -- I mean if you have a mechanism for getting on the bat. And doing you know all the things that you need to do -- arm and end -- browser certainly can it's not the best present a world but it's it's pretty decent. -- That I would say."

" it's in the class touch and you know it's a good point I you know seeking to some of the into the features that are being advertised I don't ever hear about -- talking about. You know -- it one of the features that when I'm getting Pitt's daughter were being talked about. Wi-Fi -- thousand were being -- or you were here you HD radio. We're hearing about the beautiful screen -- sexy -- I think our so that's what we're here with banana you know -- we're hearing about obviously the -- I think we're hearing about. It you know radio now you're doing a buffer radio you're able to. And it's a music player and it's your -- go device it's -- I'm on the go on the kid I'm getting a stocking stuff -- and stuff too much for Christmas device."

" But it's it's weird because within them they can go quite far off -- with a video camera and there but no still pictures so --"

" And also by the way the placement of the camera on that device is confounding."

" I was all yeah it's it's clearly a placement by necessity yeah. The only reason they would have that there is because they literally could not put it anywhere as I can only the worst possible you know and."

" For the first time ever. And Apple's commercials shell how awkward it is the people's -- are on the control. And so you know bad things are gonna happen while they shooting videos can be just all sorts of awkwardness."

" But we'll virus try to that photo with the working under our forwards your quiver like earlier this if it does video as a -- everybody wants to every one -- less -- this video is peach color I can't figure this out. You know -- your point Ross about the bifurcation of market I think it's an interesting time because they feel like. I don't know it again it's one of those things where -- Will I always talk about this went on vacation and you know Peter -- retirement this last week which is. We we're not the best test model for -- when you go on vacation have to carry gadgets because we're going to. But you know just to the general maybe consumer we're not very it would have the one device it's gonna have all of those things as -- got the nano that has a video it has. Has radio but the iPhone. Doesn't have radio doesn't have the sepia -- qualities that also doesn't have radio there's -- camera any iPod -- got to carry a flip -- with me wanna go on vacation than that six devices I'm going on vacation and all talk -- and -- also fared well."

" It's getting it's it's also getting -- that too because you know five years ago you're going on vacation with ten or eleven to -- It's not you specifically probably going to be he's 25 and -- sorts. I brought it down -- it is getting about how to continue to."

" Yeah they write about that so any final thoughts on the -- Steve how is it going to do for the holly and the big question forget what we think about -- all with the bottom line is sales and whether or not this is gonna be a big seller come a holiday season."

" He's gonna do all right but cannot it's so hard to tell I think I'm still gonna have most people saying I want an iPod is it gonna come -- a marketing -- Marketing distribution price points. But it's definitely strong are offering them Microsoft -- the -- Ryan we think."

" I'm really excited about it I think that this is the best decent consumer electronics Canada -- stuff -- today it's it's clear evolution program. And I think got -- Prada but they have a long way to go as well."

" Yeah I think around the table here we don't think it's a winner so the job to Microsoft for making them -- snazzy piece of equipment to check it out. And you guys have some great stuff up on GTT as well and check -- PC mag as well for all the latest step reviews on that let's actually let's talk about what -- PC Mac has done because before we run short on time wanna get to some what you guys did you guys just can concluded your big. What is this the is this the -- is twelfth."

" Satisfaction. Had a few days. I've been doing it since the 1800 when I was. It anyway that's -- it's scary how long I've been involved with. We do every that we -- service and reliability survey we talked to you know people who are of this website you know continents. About. -- products and the companies specifically the companies -- delivering to them. And supporting him -- it's more than just getting good products and having them work well it's. And when they don't work so well sell we at thirteen categories we."

" I got there."

" Thousand people. Who. -- over 40000 products. You know desktops laptops printers you know what the big stories we're just talking about it."

" Apple apple has consists."

" Reason above competitors in in every category -- People are incredibly happy with their products and they really happy with the support. And they're really ready to recommend what they -- it's just for some reason despite all that. Outside you know they can't recently outlook for example in desktops and -- 8% roughly 8% of the market and it hasn't changed despite the fact that there. On top on desktops. And laptops. You know which is -- so -- okay so what what they found is that. Wow consumer satisfaction in those categories -- been through the roof for desktops and laptops. The the market space hasn't really changed and they've had ID is 70% of the market for the Packers haven't gone up -- all know -- that yeah that's I think this is over and over again this is."

" This is happening -- certainly again and again where apple has been on top."

" And it's so weird because that that number of respondents doesn't change it pretty good level but not -- you know and -- not like. You know Dell Dell is always a very big number HB a big number. But you know they're not the."

" Dell and -- inspect in particular HP and the desktop and laptop space. You are not doing that great on satisfaction and specially support still let's talk about."

" Actually that brings have a good point Matt who's run in the board today doing a fantastic job. That leery in the room and there. We have the HP India a show of hands on video last night so let's play that video will come back we'll talk about -- satisfaction stuff. From HP in -- will also run some of the apple stuff here but. This was last night just -- hands on with the new envy which is. I wanna poses -- a lot of people -- looks a lot like a MacBook. For the aluminum design -- and -- them out."

" The bad this is detachable battery -- It was a battery like on this now. Eighteen hours of battery. --"

" That's a long look at."

" Yeah eighteen hours -- battered -- great that's not got a mono web enough all right so. I HT rolling out their new -- so in those categories of the Spiegel on the."

" What -- and well -- thing in desktops HP does okay. And they're not they're not doing to put in fact there overall satisfaction with a little bit above the average in laptops which by the way -- outsell desktop now in particular and -- They just don't want that while there well below the average overall satisfaction reliability. Tech support prepares. One of the other big numbers that we were looking at -- percentage needing repairs."

" HP 19%. Of the units that -- people buying."

" You know Lenovo actually 22 Intel had 23%. So and you look at. And apple and -- quite a bit better 16%. Not fantastic. You know -- aces which also made -- for the very first time only at 6%. That need repair them. So you know it's it's just the guys that was started selling. -- sensibly some that maybe the most systems."

" Are still not hitting home runs when it comes to news service reliability but still have work to do."

" One of the categories you talked about was the ads in the way in which. Apple still seems to be able to grab some of this community on the ads to people still respond in these Mac versus PC ads right yeah absolutely there you know they bring them. They respond to. Apple's messaging. But they still -- windows PCs they think it. They had base it's it's a very weird thing -- John Hodgman it's funny I can talk to I can talk to. Anybody and they will be aware of that ad campaign. Right and -- wouldn't be offended by the fact that you know that people buying windows PCs might seem uncool. Or you know what they're saying. They get the idea that the Apple's -- it's gorgeous and it's definitely in. They are buying decision process. Of some reason this --"

" Interest they won't hear over the past years and to surveil receipt for the past year I've picked my favorite of the -- switch ads over the past year. This one I believe is the the PC choice chat. I add from a -- early this summer it was pretty funny -- with hodgman on the phone that if you could go ahead and roll that one. I'm a Mac -- teach honest I can -- here."

" Yes the radio show that helps people -- the best PCs through them -- let's go to the phones. Tom from Kalamazoo you're on the -- and you don't know what they recommend people it sounds good question crank call let's go to Wendy from Fairfield -- yeah that's great customer support like. You know not -- the go to Greg from Dearborn Michigan you're on the air a long time PC user now thinking about switching to Mac. Island and then."

" real questions you know it's funny we are talking of these ads but don't you remember back relievers are running these ads like they haven't -- right and they had. They had what's his name sort of it was the roles were reversed where he was cut he was on the attack. And hodgman was on the defensive and they realize that was not an effective campaign. They switched it this has been a home run."

" Yeah plus. Microsoft kind of stuff consultant but a little bit with this. That's really did not help. I'll I wasn't it's all they had to do was basically Atlanta Microsoft. I do its own bad PR. And just kind of later that skewed yeah we're you know I mean it's. Apple is a master messaging. And in -- that's clearly resonate in that. You know there marketshare is and they're making and they were this the -- division and you know they're they're catching up. I think -- Funny thing about sealing a win win win in the consumer segment -- that he sees itself. And -- they would -- the end and and there's so -- it got a ways to get that's him."

" numbers for. You know the market share particularly on the notebook side has. That they certainly have seen gains of over the past couple years. With the opening of the retail store that's been a huge hit for them. Pulled off a little bit in recent months because of the success of netbooks. Which really just puts under a magnifying glass the the whole Mac windows dichotomy which is you know -- people buy PCs and wire Mac users it's all the same answer you know why -- Mac users more satisfied. Because apple will not play in this segment of the market. Where a lot of -- he's -- full price wise. Well under a thousand dollar segment that some 500 dollar notebook segment. There apple does not want to play -- but a lot of people will buy machines that he and I to you know -- source."

" You know on the -- on the DL -- you told me obviously we're gonna see this we're gonna see. Max in in October -- C refresh -- likely see that price drop. And so you know late October early November somewhere -- that in that field. So you know if they're gonna try to drop those prices I think that could be a real shift of real sea change from the holidays especially in this economy."

" Well except that you have windows seven coming out in October. And despite what -- said. You know yes Microsoft slingshot themselves at least in the foot with that stuff. But in that time. Apple's market share didn't skyrocket. He should have I still don't entirely understand. Why didn't -- I think that was a tremendous opportunity but he didn't likewise Linux and go anywhere either but. You know it really it should have been a golden opportunity for them in any case now. When that happens with apple when they release new systems when they lower the price. Microsoft going to be right in the middle of -- massive push for windows seven which is. A much better operating system which is lighter which is -- which does work better which has of course tremendous support in the alien space so. I think. Maybe it's too late for for apple to really -- up that way they should've done in the --"

" Stimulus. Well here's one of them here's the most recent ad this just rolled out -- believe this week this is the latest Mac versus PC -- with a bubble wrap take a look at this. Hello Mac I'm a PC and -- PC innovations like every piece Univision currently not you have your patented MagSafe cord and pops at anytime someone trips over it for so we're protecting PCs -- this new air -- enclosure. This program and you know how you have your revolutionary new battery that lasts almost an entire work that well we are offering -- an extremely long court. Position innovations -- people's lives easier and that's exactly why we developed these him. Cheers and innovation."

" They did so anyway people here whichever way and Alan -- says -- apple Merck. Mac versus PC ads are great -- 73 Wright's most people are afraid of switching their various reasons they're not really that many are not really an issue just people not willing to make that big -- people are scared about it. And I think obviously the stores have been a huge. Huge boon for them trying to drive down that fear of switching it into the ecosystem you're so used to living in for so long. I mean there's so you're you're so used to window the windows experience and you've been using XP for so long. And quite frankly. All the rumors and people -- in hearing about Vista didn't want to upgrade switched to me that I mean our whole business here. Basically every computer in this building is still -- XP yes and of course you know grants numbers not too long as the most people aren't even gonna upgrade to to to windows seven. For probably about a year is that not right."

" I don't know -- thoughts somebody -- at enterprises and items I guess I think all the way to research comes down and."

" Yeah so any final thoughts on that Ryan before we move on."

" Well I mean you spoke to all -- using eating in your building and your enterprise that's the case for a lot of this is now all long way to go where they're gonna make any impacts. -- in the workplace but they are gaining market share it's not like it plants that they're gaining market share. I and the consumer segment they're not skyrocketing as as -- it -- but. They're doing well and they're gonna continue to do better as the cost of switching -- and I don't mean literally priced at the cost of switching inserts and mind -- and and ease of making it happen goes down as everyone starts moving all applications and computing email and all sentenced the clout. Summertime is spending in a browser easier it is to switch from windows --"

" Great point. -- I wanna re introduce our guests here what we have about twenty minutes left here -- show this is guessing -- you can always check this out and iTunes download and I can check on this has been submitted to the to the Zune store. I getting used to seeing that -- in marketplace. You download the video podcasts there as well land fuel and off is the editor in chief of PC mag dot com PC magazine you can check out the latest satisfaction survey. Splash right there on the front page -- to some go. Deeper diving in some of these numbers here really good service. A Ross -- of course is technology analyst from -- PD group they are responsible for. All the greatest -- said and Ryan Block from GD GT dot com check it out go to GD GT dot com right now actually wait -- the show's over. And then go. And then set up your you -- Monsanto and -- could do it simultaneously please tell it and before the -- the show once you tell me what your profile. Tell us what you've added your profile -- is what you can do is you set up your profile. At all of the gadgets that are relevant to you when your life once you you want ones that you currently own you create a social experience around you guys have done -- really great job of I think. I really do I have to believe this -- Santa really can -- an elevated the conversation. Gadget talk within discussion threads and stuff that you guys have their I've noticed that and you know it. Without a lot of the vitriol that we see in some other places so great to give it time to happen. Manually here -- it always does yeah. Let's talk about each -- I have it right here. Matt if you wanna go ahead and roll this video here -- some hands on video with it last night BHP -- screen animal will come back and we'll just we'll talk about this a little bit."

" Then the next thing you do is get to see you -- weather forecasts. It weekly check your friends' FaceBook status as we haven't direct relationship. That FaceBook. Updated in real time -- need to do is very nice. I kind. -- like FaceBook. You needed individually quality of in addition we partner with. -- all you hear me. -- And because like the station. This all -- There -- already because we're not loud environment but you have. We'll -- standards -- all -- connectivity on the side here you can go wired you got. -- keyboards even have the ability to listen to headphones that lineup and on this side you have the ability to actually have all your media card -- So you need it was supported. -- so beautiful and unscrew the stand and anti -- because we have already did the -- built Obama. It's not if you don't want to use the remote control. Then you're able to use them. All the -- It's can -- there's the case."

" there you go listen hands on time with each featuring screen this is the actual device here this is the larger of the two this is the 299. Model believe this is yet this is the thirteen and half inch. Model so you -- the question is this a glorified photo frame that. Some -- they they beat apple to the market with a tablet styled certainly not and that way. -- how does this fit into my life okay so I wake up in the morning. When the first things I do is they reach for my iPhone I kind of just browse some headlines. You know before I kind of get up and and went to sleep -- my eyes. This I would take the remote I could flip the remote. Turn this puppy on stream pandora wake up some you know -- in the morning take a look across the room and check my you -- FaceBook status updates or whatever I don't need FaceBook across the room like that -- for me personally. But whether widgets are you got the weather right there you can see it in a device that I don't have to like go to my iPhone check and I can look at it right on my device that right on this platform. It's wall now possible to us if you wanted to hang this up in your bathroom or something while you're in the bathroom. And have it you know via Wi-Fi playing music in your bathroom. Might be a device -- don't put it your kitchen. Something like that so how does this fit into our lives -- this. Where does this what does it belong."

" Drew my -- and anything about the built in alarm clock right right and I assume that the alarm turn off. Is not on the air but we'll see that bothers me that the alarm is on the screen because -- personal -- people without an arms swinging right. -- turning this thing -- what do you -- life. You always got I don't fly -- across the room. But. I. I think that it can be in the the -- they can be in the living room. You know. Media on the wall. And I like some of the functionality and I do wish that browsers you've got the Internet coming and that you don't have you don't have that you've got whether. But is there -- speed on that writing known as one."

" Not sure Ryan what do you think and it is -- You know it's one of -- seems to I think if this was a third party and if you were able to add things to this from the third party developer standpoint really might open it up to some interesting things. Maybe it'll -- this point maybe having -- you know. Having email on there you can just wake up in the morning -- you could see you know -- you -- you know jump on Hulu perhaps. You wanna have -- desktop client you can run there and actually have some extra stuff running -- news headlines in the morning while you're in the bathroom or something like that getting ready. We think --"

" I mean the idea being -- decent -- that is -- The reality is we're not quite there and partly because this -- mania these kinds of devices and platforms -- there isn't. I kind of grand standardized unify a consumer electronics -- platforms that everybody is adopted Yahoo! has and -- they're pushing in -- a couple of there's things floating around out there but basically right now -- once -- people that I'll bring this device they have to convince them that it's going to be where there are. Because anything they do about Rebecca devices only going to work on that device -- on your TV you won't work on your -- you won't work on whatever else you got. They kind of serve this an ambient display and and you know around the house information consul yeah so I think we need to get their -- we -- industry -- bed together and create some kind of center around which. We can build widgets and -- House britney's. Kind of glance information slaves was brought -- from there -- it would have been easier."

" Yet viewpoint is that Verizon -- which can be what was the hub yeah. That was kind of a massive. First looked at it wasn't wasn't too well put together the DiMarco I just -- by the way that that I think that there and one of the problems is lack of a touch screen here also wants -- running the -- the FaceBook step there's an issue of a ten foot screen that this. In some cases. Is not the -- from a distance like that the information trying to convey likely. They worked on the interface itself that seems to work from wherever it can really see it but once you get down to the apple launched on the look at something -- it's informational. It it's sort of breaks -- she really have to have a close if you wanted to be valuable for that kind of stuff."

" Right and to your point Ryan I think and -- you can jump in on this which is if we have a standard perhaps that. You know and I don't know. Have thrown this out there but in sort of -- Motorola Comodo you know -- blur idea which is. It's not FaceBook. Necessarily the -- which we're used to seeing it but if you're gonna look at it on -- ten -- 1010 screen from a distance across a room. You're getting the bare essentials almost -- a FaceBook -- well yeah in the."

" These -- standard it's not necessarily in the client right now on the emerging standards are and in the -- on on the Internet and the compelling services. That consumers want to connect to like FaceBook and pandora. Putter and so forth you know. Just like in the MP3 player market we wouldn't have these new portable browsers if they're really hadn't been an iPod that have been very successful. This is looking to build on the success of digital picture frames. There have been millions of them sold and this really just you know brings up the usability in the definition of well what -- and it."

" Well while we're -- anybody is the future digital picture as well I mean there's a lot of utility I think most people. Now appropriate sits there and plays it seems when he gurus -- when he -- out. Red -- and see you look at that -- it's it's great for rappers they're here. And then you think well -- displacing wasn't doing anything else -- so this is this is the way to that's and it. I'm in and that -- about how I kind of clinical data you know weather stock sports news. Here today. NR SS -- All kinds of stuff you get -- Eddie's question is HP immediately get a bunch of people -- thousands of apps written that particular that -- now. If there was the -- that that outward run on other devices similar to it. And -- ecosystem hundreds of these kinds and by connected displays. Then it's a lot easier to get you -- building."

" That there are few companies out there including -- that are trying to do widget platforms and content platforms that run across right multiple frames HP certainly have that option with this device chose not to. And that of course you know we're gonna talk about the Archos device that's a good example. Of a company that had Wi-Fi had Internet in a device. And is now looking to and alas like android to bring a lot of those other out so they don't have to support a developer community who have lance and we'll show the Archos -- and -- just."

" Saves its 299 dollars -- netbook for 219 right now saying this is. I've I absolutely agree talent but tablet -- that this is not a game. This is not a tablet now this is a picture frame that has extra functionality I love the idea the in his Wi-Fi -- network access and that's critical to Ryan's point absolutely -- get bored if you're not pulling from a store of photos someplace in the cloud or someplace onion on your home server. But at some point you know you have to go wait and I'm paying 299 dollars for. Of a digital photo friend that has an extra cool features but doesn't have tremendous utility and I can hook up keyboard to it right now so. Why am I paying so much."

" And why does it you know why is it this secret -- have Skype on and I saw you -- basis Skype phone actually is pretty exciting device for me because I have to admit you know you wanted to sort of -- down click here. You click to buttons you're able to communicate -- your grandparents. Your parents somewhere -- have no idea how to set up a device like that if that. If he had that sort of set up in a device like this I think you know it's a nice first step I mean this -- it's a step forward out of tonight's first step but -- about the Archos. And it will throw these pictures here. -- of the Archos and Ryan I wanna get your take on this because to me. This is an interesting device I don't know how to categorize this and I don't know where we go with this but to me it's a pretty exciting device because I think -- says. He we don't know field of one of the field of one this is the -- one from them. -- my apologies. Anyway the new Archos that was out -- was just announced this week my apologies for that. Pretty exciting but pretty odd though and try to figure out how it fits -- and what sort of what sort of a question and answers I don't know."

" The the way I think about it is so you know you have the iPhone and you have the iPod touch and one of the cellphone and one is more of a media player that can access the Internet. And the idea here is to say. We have phones that run android you know from T-Mobile and companies like HDC in the Motorola blur. And the Motorola click. And now here is something that you can get to run many of those -- Where you don't need to subscribe to a data plan you know don't have always on connections. But you can take advantage of of a lot of the apps that have been written by developers for for android. You know and in in a device -- offensively mostly a media player yes Archos."

" Yeah I think this time or -- portable media device that runs on its own proprietary platform. Doesn't have a browser doesn't have an -- framework that's it's over. The iPod touch basically -- So now everybody -- you figure out how it is they're going to get their -- media player to view it got untouched. Now. And so this is this is -- percent I think her her a lot of these players in the industry. And if you're gonna see a lot more android based -- media devices BCC news Andrew you know. You know with a first beat potential markets saw -- it was the portable media space now I just because there's so little going on there's a few devices come with an -- framework yeah you know develop a piece of browser. And you know all connected to be built right in at the lower level I mean you know Archos -- creative ready you smaller. Media player companies who spent years building or they could just keep it off the shelf. From -- which is open source. -- sudden that's that's definitely where we're going in I would be surprised -- it a couple of years the vast majority of those devices in the class are not using. Something like this something like android or licensing yeah. Windows Mobile or whatever it is they need to -- attack Nixon -- apps and browsing and and in this features."

" I -- talk here before we run out of time the apple TV point that I wanted to bring up quote we saw this week the apple TV get -- price drop. Finally and finally getting rid of that forty gigabyte hard drive apple TV which I didn't even know. They made it couldn't find -- that didn't quite hard drives alone though they introduce this yeah. You know that I I walked through the apple sort of see what sort of placement had just to see where it was just before it was sort of talked often corner you know and applicable the -- I've sort of put it back out again -- the front. And of course we -- iTunes nine -- release. They'll raise the question is is with the price drop and trying to move inventory get out of there or is tonight is an apple TV refresh coming soon lance what --"

" You know I think he answers their questions got to come next month you know it's not -- it's the kind of product that fits in October. This is their last chance to make it commitment to apple TV. We've heard rumors about updates for the longest time -- is always been shunted to the side. I. -- just don't know. It has some of what all that well -- know the people that bought apple TV absolutely love it. But it is not been a home run people are getting multi function devices that are doing a lot of things -- that set top devices things that they put underneath."

" That handle kind of all the stuff they want and they haven't -- proven that people want to download movies on iTunes and watch them on the big screen TV with the help of the apple TV words."

" I just bought a Samsung Blu-ray player right and one of the things it has is Netflix -- I -- put that up to my network and now I've got a multi function thing and I don't have to go to the extra step to trying get a whole singular device to work with another ecosystem."

" Right try to make it work well I incidentally at this point Ross and I love the -- Khou box and tonight I watch MLB just about every night I'm able watch my Phillies here in New York City. I love the content they're still second tier content will will admit you know obviously some of the Netflix -- able to get instantly but we know. Some stuff is coming down the -- very soon from -- which is excited but. You know what. What how does this fit in if this is not dead what are they doing and doesn't fit with a Mac refresh and iMac refresh coming in October."

" Well yes certainly technologically it's very similar to a -- on the inside and I agree with lance on the timing. It would make sense to do -- but you know I really don't think we're gonna see. Some dramatic reinvention. This product apple has. Characterized it as the hobby is it is an -- can be. ITunes ecosystem very much so. And and and it's not. It's very difficult for -- a foothold. In that living room particularly with a lot of this functionality being built into. Blu-ray players on the television itself."

" Ryan the price drop just to make sure viewers know brings the 160 gigabyte apple TV from 330 down to 230. And forty gigabyte model is no longer for sale so we think is this every fresh -- or they're getting rid of this line altogether."

" I think they're gonna be getting rid of it. I think -- probably movement not units this way not to justify canceling our right. It's -- market -- mean it's gonna take time or this digital media player in the living room. To really take hold and the fact is there is this new great looming eco system of ways to get -- And buying another box is not necessarily the best way to do -- That said the way to sell boxes is -- some boxes that you are a number so you look at the -- It's a great example. A way to get your digital media strategy into people's homes under the guise -- something else Microsoft silly game consul. Then now does all these other things that he didn't used to -- in -- I was agree Trojan horse. Blu-ray is actually turning out to you something similar where. You're buying a Blu-ray player and now you're getting it because it's connected to Internet and -- other things -- it using Netflix and widgets and all these other. Who I don't so you wanna sell assets are you gonna continue to you know keep putting boxes underneath people's illusions it -- more than just one thing. But I would I -- safer for apple is -- clearly need. And incidents themselves in the speaker system and if they did do something like an app store the apple -- where you can build. Media centric applications. Or that particular bites. I think -- how some potential there to do something that nobody else. And that is sick kind of out. Oh really nicely sets sets are not I don't think it's gonna do that right now -- it that's a really really interesting proposition if they actually -- out."

" I'm definitely into the final word on this. I actually company like Brian's idea of anything that's what I have to do is absolutely right it can't be single purpose box and I. You know what we say that we don't think that's going to happen but honestly I didn't expect Steve Jobs to show that the most recent apple -- at this point anything is -- possible without."

" Yeah and it's true -- to me we saw when iTunes nine new refreshed to big push for via via apple TV. I'm -- the apple TV format. For a lot of the output for the for them for videos and iTunes nine so. Having -- that move for the apple TV and that was so prominently placed within iTunes nine sort of got the census. It's not deadly -- my my thought. Some final thoughts this afternoon when he gets out Ryan what he -- working on it over a TD GT."

" Well yes it's only -- we launched a new version of our own agents as personalized that's pretty -- actually log in have a profile. And the gadgets tier list you'll get a personal home -- each feed -- all the stuff about your gadgets. Going on in the -- that's too useful we're gonna continue to build on our mechanical stuff. Cool and I will oh please get to -- here in New York on the big launch event here in New York City. Yeah we don't -- New York on October 1 so I actually been around since that's and -- it's cool."

" right great CU and it's Nicholson thanks Brian Brian from a GD GT dot com check it out. Wins you'll often PC -- that company is working -- besides your 112 service. -- barricaded. I think we actually have."

" Although we do have a look at that Sunni Steve versus the iPod touch -- got a little it's smash up there including a video that really takes you through everything. And and tries to come to a conclusion. We've got hands on with that chrome three browser from Google that just rolled out -- that review of that. Also want to mention that we have that a review of our first windows seven laptop the other novelty 400 -- on the site. And that's kind of exciting because as a multi touch screen."

" nice nice good stuff there and check out the exit out those reviews too because a lot of people here in chat were -- wondering. Zune versus iPod touch soon versus nano so go to PC mag dot com check out that review and it will help clear mind up a little bit. Ross Rubin from NPD group has always great to see you -- get working on over there you know we continue to monitor the market and seen how these a lot of these new products are. Are doing in the retail channel land. -- some work with our custom team about. Penetration of various different kinds of products and US counsel -- some great stuff great stuff on Twitter go and follow Ross Rubin at Ross Rubin on Twitter at landstuhl and off on Twitter and at Ryan Block on Twitter as well and also check out -- GD GT because. Ryan sort of puts his personality more there than he does on. The -- yeah. All right thanks guys it was great show we really appreciate that is the -- be sure to download us on iTunes store and Zune marketplace we'll see you back here next Friday at 2 PM as always thanks for joining us."