Should the media change the way mass shootings are covered?

Published Wednesday, September 18, 2013 / The Five

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," September 18, 2013. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Greg Gutfeld, along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Bob Beckel, Eric Bolling, and -- she's the head of the yearbook committee. It's Dana Perino.

It's 5 o'clock in New York City, but who's counting?

(MUSIC)

GUTFELD: As the blithering talking head, I have a rule: when an atrocity strikes, pipe down. I worry that a victim's family might be watching and would hate hearing a jerk like me prattling on and on and on about the villain, mainly because for villains, the closest thing to being remembered in a world where it's so easy to be forgotten is to do evil, especially when "Rolling Stone" gives you a cover.

We need to remove this path to fame. Let the authorities deal with the demons, and they are. They say it's mental illness. If you need to blame something, I guess you could blame the brain. Its malfunction seems behind so many shootings.

I remember Bette Midler blaming the Newton massacre on Ronald Reagan because the mentally ill were released from California hospitals when he was once governor. She ignored the patient rights movement which shielded the unstable, so you couldn't get them help like Bette Midler.

The tolerance rainbow created only one path for the sick, which the streets. You now have malfunctions at all junctions. It's like an FAA approving a fleet of planes with their screw loose. And so when asked how does the society take care of the ill when society itself is sick?

When the sick were let out, we were supposed to help them, but we needed help ourselves. A society that abdicates its responsibility to keep families together has a tougher time maintaining a safety net for other people.

That was Reagan's big mistake. He thought we could save the sick, but we couldn't even save ourselves, which is why we look to the government, which doesn't seem to mind at all.

K.G.?

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Yes.

GUTFELD: What do you make of the media coverage so far of this? Do you think they sensationalize violence by covering the villain?

GUILFOYLE: I think by virtue of having to cover the story because it is a major news event, it's going to seem sensationalized because the events themselves are so heinous and so atrocious. So, I'm torn between not wanting to give them the attention that they so separately seek, like you said, these villains of disaster, of epic proportions, and also the responsibility from a news perspective to actually let the public know what's going on.

But I disagree with is when the media sensationalized it and uses it for their own political purposes and agenda to frame the argument.

GUTFELD: Bob, do you think we should ever be showing the faces of the villains, just shown once and never again?

BOB BECKEL, CO-HOST: Well, I think -- I mean, look, it's a news story, as Kimberly said, you have to do that.

What I don't buy is that they're copycat killers here. I think these people are insane and would do it anyway. I don't think the coverage of them leads to more mass murders.

I think we do spend an awful lot of time on it. I think we could get away with it after about a day or two and then move on.

GUTFELD: Yes. I disagree. I do think there are copycat murders. I think that people do understand they can get fame when they see the fame -- there he is again. Thank you for showing him.

When they see the amount of times their face is put up there, then they think, wow, that really works for a loser like me, I can go out and kill people because network keep showing pictures of them.

GUILFOYLE: But then they're dead.

GUTFELD: Yes.

Eric, Adam Lanza was enthralled by the press -- the Norway shooter guy. So we know it has some kind of linkage.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Yes, perhaps. But I think it's really important -- I'll take the other side of that. I will kind of agree with Bob and maybe to a certain extent Kimberly and disagree with you, Greg. I think we need to do that. I think we need to see who these people are. I think we need to see what makes them tick.

I think the more we see, the more we can recognize -- see something, say something. You see an Adam Lanza living next door to you, that kid acts a lot like that Adam Lanza kid --

GUILFOYLE: Right.

BOLLING: And you go, maybe I will report something like this. I think it's very important to stay on it.

Sensationalizing it, I don't -- I'm not sure that causes more mass murders. I think these people are sick. They're nuts. They're going to kill whether or not they're on TV or not. You want to create a lot of stir, a lot of attention, jump off a building or do something stupid, and, you know, in the middle of a football stadium.

I just -- I don't think that seeing Adam Lanza or Holmes or Alexis or any of these or Loughner, I think that creates more -- I think maybe we're seeing and hearing about it a lot more.

GUTFELD: All right.

I disagree. I think the more you show and talk about somebody, they make movies about it. Robert Redford made "The Company You Keep" about the Weather Underground. He didn't talk about the victims. He talked about the terrorists. That makes a terrorist romantic, and that makes me kind of sick.

GUILFOYLE: Isn't that taking it a step further, then, because, you know, it's to film?

GUTFELD: Yes.

GUILFOYLE: It's not just reporting the news or telling the story, where the public has a right and a need to know what's going on and potentially maybe it will motivate them to get involved to report the next person that they find, that kind of behavior or someone who's got a kid who's troubled next door. If it saves a life, then I'm all for it.

But when you take it to the next step like Redford did, that I think is, you know, inappropriate.

GUTFELD: Dana, isn't the sad reality as much as we complain about this sort of stuff, culture finds the culprit more interesting than the victim because there's always a story about the culprit? We have names, Arthur Daniel, Silvia Frasier, Kathleen Gaarde, Kenneth Proctor, Michael Arnold -- all these poor people that are dead, but they're -- just to the producers, they're not as interesting because they didn't commit the crime.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, so this only happened on Monday. Today is Wednesday. In the first day, we didn't even have the names of the victims. The media didn't have the names of the victims until late Monday night, early Tuesday morning.

And the truth is the good guys, the victims, they never get enough attention, ever.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: That's reality. Think of the stories we've done about Christians being attacked in Muslim countries like in Nigeria. Nobody ever talks the Christian missionary. We only see the burning building, and then we see pictures of terrorists, and then we yell about it, but we don't talk about the actual people who were killed. Partly I think that is reality.

I also think on this one, people have moved on pretty quickly. If you look at the front pages of all the major newspapers today, it's only Wednesday, and he's only on the front page one of the major newspapers we have here.

GUTFELD: Go ahead.

BECKEL: I was going to say, we went past this releasing mental health people in California.

GUTFELD: I'm going to get to that.

BECKEL: Please, go ahead.

GUTFELD: No, no, I was going to point to what Charles Krauthammer had said last night. He's a psychiatrist. So, he has some fairly substantial experience on this topic. This is him about losing the ability to deal with people who have psychiatric illness.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: One problem that we have, 50 years ago, if the cops are out on the scene and you told them all that, they would have taken you to the emergency room. And as a psychiatrist, I would have been on duty, and I would have committed him for two weeks of treatment because that person clearly was having a psychotic episode. But today, because of this idea of civil liberties, which I respect, we don't do that anymore. And we have people at large who can be dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: So, what do you make of that? He agrees that it's wrong to incarcerate somebody against their will even if because they're mentally ill, they refuse it be incarcerated.

BECKEL: Well, he's talking about people they bring in now on crimes. What I was referring to are people who are already in mental institutions in California who are just released and went out on the streets, and then, as we know, they committed a number of crimes. You can see them around here.

California was the start, but then it spread across the country. Civil liberties, people who combined with conservatives didn't want to spend money on these mental health institutions, got them on the street, and it's a real problem.

GUTFELD: Yes, I do think -- I mean, nobody's innocent in this. I think that there were movements for patient activism that were in agreement with people who didn't want to spend money. And so, they both kind of pushed this movement out and there are people on the street.

There was also the assumption that communities would be able to handle them, but that assumption was wrong because our communities have enough -- have enough issues dealing with themselves, I guess.

PERINO: And families have had a hard time because, say, you have somebody that's mentally ill in your family. And you lose track of them, right? And they go off on their own. You can't -- you can't compel them. You can't institutionalize them yourself.

So, it could be that there needs to be some changes on that particular part of the law. I think that the Veterans Administration is going to -- they have a lot of problem. They have this guy -- this Alexis guy said that he had PTSD. Then he goes back.

He went to the Veterans Administration on August 23rd, just a few week ago, asking for help. He can't sleep. He's got problems. He's hearing things. They give him some medicine. Tell him to come back in two weeks.

I'm sure that they have thousands of people like this coming through all the time. And how do you make the judgment call of which one are you going to -- as Charles suggested -- put somebody into an institution for two weeks? I don't know how -- I don't know how you determine it.

GUTFELD: Yes. Is it -- Eric, is it just human error that somebody just screwed up along the way?

BOLLING: Yes. And also it's, you know, the PC society and people are worried about offending people with issues. Mental issues, and, you know, you're going to be put behind -- in a hospital against your will.

Really, there should be some database for that. I'm pretty sure there on a state-to-state basis, but there's no way to share that data across state lines. I think that's part of the problem because when you talk p the left saying that these people are ill and they are getting guns, they wouldn't if there was some way to share that data.

PERINO: But how does that square with the Fourth Amendment? I do think that there is a civil liberty argument to be made about privacy. We've spent the summer talking about that.

So, I don't see -- I don't see how you make a determination when it comes to --

BOLLING: Because once it's adjudicated, like once a judge says against your will, Bolling, you're going to this institution. At that point, you've set a red flag off saying that you're dangerous. At that point --

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: But what if they just come after you for your politics? What if they just say you're a right-wing nut so we're putting you in an institution?

BECKEL: That would --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: Like the IRS.

PERINO: Right.

BECKEL: I hate to say, it's not going to be very popular. But if you notice that the families of these people who do these things are often -- they're shocked. They are stigmatized for the rest of their lives because they're associated with this person.

And I don't think we give enough time recognizing that there are a lot of them who are out there who are also victims in their own way.

GUTFELD: Well, the mother of the killer came out and was horribly sick. And she did a press conference earlier today.

You want to look at the coverage of the press, there were a lot of red faces over at the timing a lot of stuff wrong, particularly about the name of the killer and also the weapon being used. "The Daily News" ran this cover and also kept a column by make Lupica up for a long time after they found out that it wasn't the same gun, the AR-15 rifle. It wasn't that gun. They still kept up Lupica who's not a very bright fellow, poor man's Bob Costas.

BOLLING: Chuck Todd tweeted the wrong name of the shooter. That stayed on Twitter for a while. Then, NBC pulled it back.

Piers Morgan goes and spends a whole lot of time on air saying there's that darn AR-15.

AR-15 probably saved some lives. The AR-15 was used by the campus police that were on scene and maybe stopped some of the carnage towards the end of it. So, their hate to be first over precedes their interest in being right, and that's a problem.

GUTFELD: Yes, you'd rather be second or third and right than first and wrong.

All right. Up next, the president's own former defense secretaries are slamming his serious strategy. But is Obama tone-deaf to his critics even from his own team? We'll play the tape, ahead on THE FIVE. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: Welcome back, everybody.

The American people didn't like it. Congress didn't like it. Hell, members of his own party didn't even like it. The "it" is President Obama's bombs-away strategy for Syria, but the commander-in-chief can be tone-deaf at times.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think that folks here in Washington like to grade on style. And so, had we rolled out something that was very smooth and disciplined and linear, they would have graded it well, even if it was a disastrous policy.

I'm less concerned about style points. I'm much more concerned about getting the policy right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: Style points, sir -- you definitely have that.

But listen to his own defense secretaries, a Democrat and a Republican, who expressed doubts about the substance -- the substance of the Syria strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT GATES, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Frankly, anything embraced by Vladimir Putin and Bashar Assad fills me with skepticism.

LEON PANETTA, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: When the president of the United States draws a red line, the credibility of this country is dependent on him backing up his words.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: Well, Robert, the president tone deaf? I mean, Gates and Panetta both suggested drawing that red line was a mistake.

BECKEL: Well, it probably was a mistake. I think Obama essentially backed away from that for good reason. By the way, who did you say was crazy outside? You were pointing to somebody.

GUILFOYLE: No, Bob, somebody for real.

BECKEL: Oh, OK. Out there?

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

BECKEL: Really?

I'm not sure he's tone deaf. It's a complicated issue. You're relying on the Russians to help. Without the Russians, you probably wouldn't get it done. Without the military or naval power that Obama put out there, it wouldn't have happened.

So, I think he deserves a big victory on this.

BOLLING: A victory.

PERINO: A victory?

GUILFOYLE: Wow! Whoa, Bob. Bob's got no problem saying just about anything.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: -- anything that you proposed.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

BECKEL: Well, the weapons, that's what I want to see happen.

GUILFOYLE: Hi, take a sip from your "proud to be a bleeding heart liberal" mug. This will help you. OK.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Here. This is the exact sense of arrogance and infallibility that our enemies are taking advantage of. You can't criticize Obama, but this also partly to blame because of the mainstream media with just like completely giving him this just positive affirmation, glowing all the time.

So, he's used to it. So, he's incredibly uncomfortable with criticism. He actually doesn't want to hear it.

And because of this, this defiance and I know better than everybody else, the enemies are stepping in and using that to their strategic advantage.

BECKEL: How's that?

GUILFOYLE: Look what they just did. Guess who's the new number one, the big dog in the block, the sheriff is, it's Putin.

BOLLING: Vlad.

GUILFOYLE: Vlad the cat.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: Do you have any cough drops, by the way?

BOLLING: You guys want to comment on this one or the ObamaCare tone deaf?

GUTFELD: Well, can I just -- the tone-deaf thing, think about what he did this week. It was the five-year anniversary of the Lehman meltdown. This was a fabricated anniversary generated and collaborated with the media to allow Obama to spout nonsense about his achievements.

And he couldn't let it go. He could not let it go after a shooting. He had to do this.

And to me, it was like -- it told me that the story of the presidency is there is no story. It's gone.

PERINO: It was -- that was very small.

Can I just mention on Gates and Panetta? I thought in some way their criticism was fairly mild but it's magnified because they worked for not just for President Obama but for previous presidents. They've both been at the CIA. They -- if there was anybody that you would want to listen to, a wise man in foreign policy, Panetta and Gates are two good people to listen to.

BOLLING: Can I just roll that sound bite of President Obama? A little tone deaf on ObamaCare. Listen to this one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fifty-two percent believe the law will raise their health care costs. Is everybody wrong?

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes. They are. The problem we have is, is that over the last four years, billions of dollars have been spent misinforming people about what this law is about. All the horror stories that were talked about have not come true.

It's going to be a good deal. And we expect that once it's fully implemented, a year from now, two years from now, five years from now, people will look back, and they'll be asking, what was the argument about?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: All right. K.G., I'll just paraphrase.

GUILFOYLE: What I just said?

BOLLING: No, what he just said. Everyone was else wrong and I'm right. Everyone.

GUILFOYLE: But is this more of the same? At least he's horribly consistent, I mean, but also very boring. He comes up with this, like, blunted affect. It's so boring.

What is he even saying? He doesn't move me, you know? He's not saying anything that makes sense or that's memorable.

I'm bummed. I want our guy to do well. I like being in the winner's circle. I liked having the president that stands up and people like want to pay attention. And right now, it's like he doesn't care. If he's getting interrupted, he doesn't hear what's coming in his ear, even from his advisers.

So, what's coming out of his mouth is making it worse. It's not healthy.

BECKEL: What he said was, there was $2 billion to make ObamaCare into a horrible thing, and he's right. And everybody keeps talking about all these horror stories, but I've not heard one yet, not one, that backs up what people said.

GUTFELD: Meanwhile, he has used Hollywood as his propaganda arm to prop up every single one of his political pipe dreams.

BOLLING: Let me just give you one horror story, Bob. They sold ObamaCare, the bill to the American people saying this was going to cost $890 billion.

The most recent CBO number is $1.8 trillion -- $1.8 trillion. It's already doubled in price, and it's not even implemented fully yet.

GUILFOYLE: Uh-oh.

BOLLING: There's a horror story.

Dana, what about President Obama -- he's never wrong. He's never wrong with anything. Isn't it time to say, OK, we miscalculated?

PERINO: I think in politics, it's always good to eat a little humble pie even if it's hard to swallow. And the thing is, he's also the most overexposed president. But I've been saying this for five years and so they don't really care.

Think of how many interviews he's done recently. On the fifth anniversary of Lehman, I think that was a telling one where he -- they had the partisan speech. That's why even you had liberals saying, geez, Mr. President, can you give it a rest? Just for a day?

They seemed not to take a very long view. And they're about to have -- I guess we're going to talk about it next -- a big showdown with Congress once again. But watch the media try to help him. And Republicans try to help him, too.

GUTFELD: He has SBS, which is spoiled brat syndrome. The media has let him ride through the administration with training wheels. So, he's not used to riding that bike on his own. And when he's in trouble, he falls over and --

PERINO: And blames you for letting go.

GUTFELD: Yes, exactly.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

BECKEL: Despite the epic scandal that's Benghazi, what is it that's gone wrong?

GUTFELD: Let's start with Benghazi.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: Let's start with the IRS, the DOJ.

GUILFOYLE: Solyndra.

BOLLING: Hold the thought. Let's talk about that in just a minute.

Directly after THE FIVE tonight, tune into a special two-hour edition of "SPECIAL REPORT" for an exclusive FOX News interview with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. FOX News contributor Dennis Kucinich and senior correspondent Greg Palkot sat down with Assad. You don't want to miss that.

Coming up here, though, Starbucks coffee takes sides on guns and ObamaCare. Whose side are they on?

The answer after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, Starbucks coffee has put itself right in the middle of two controversial issues, the gun debate and ObamaCare. Yesterday, Howard Schultz who is the company CEO up out a letter to customers requesting that they stop bringing guns -- come on -- to its stores because of his, quote, "unsettling and upsetting for many of their customer."

Well, Schultz also loves him some ObamaCare and says it's a good thing for the country. He certainly is entitled to his opinion, but is this a smart business move?

For more on that, we go for FOX News business, Eric Bolling.

BOLLING: Bad idea, Mr. Schultz. Listen --

GUILFOYLE: What's wrong with him?

BOLLING: He's an activist CEO. He likes to get involved in these social issues. You go to Starbucks for their coffee, not the CEO's opinion on guns, and whatnot, people should bring guns.

Look, we have a right -- every state has a concealed carry license with the exception of the district. The district doesn't have -- everyone state has one, and we are allowed to bring our guns into Starbucks if we want to.

GUILFOYLE: How is he legislating this to say you can't --

BOLLING: He's not. He's not. He stopped short of that. He just said we are requesting you don't do that. I think it's a mistake.

Morse and Giron in Colorado found out the hard way that we are very much a pro-gun country.

GUILFOYLE: That was a shot across the bow.

GUTFELD: A lot of people don't go for the coffee. They go for the bathrooms. Starbucks has become a replacement for the public library.

GUILFOYLE: And McDonald's.

GUTFELD: People use the place -- the lines are always longer for the bathroom than it is for getting coffee. I know for a fact because I have a small bladder.

By the way, why didn't he go a little further and make it a gun-free zone? He should put up signs that say, this is a gun-free zone. If he really believes that, it could be like saying, hi, please rob me.

BECKEL: What is possibly wrong with a guy who owns a company saying that we don't want guns in here? Who the world wants gun in their establishment?

GUTFELD: What is possibly wrong with saying how silly that is?

BECKEL: Is it silly to have guns in bars on a Friday night?

GUTFELD: Without guns in society, there would be no commerce. So, he's lucky he has police officers all around him to protect him.

BECKEL: Do you think they should have gun in bars on Saturday night?

GUTFELD: Hell yes, the less guns there are, the less safe you are. When you walk by a place and they say, when you walk by a bodega and they say this place is armed, I go in there.

BECKEL: Well, good.

GUILFOYLE: You're just a rough rider, aren't you?

GUTFELD: No. You do not say that.

GUILFOYLE: I'm with you.

GUTFELD: If you go into a place and a person is armed, I go in there.

GUILFOYLE: Because guess why, because there's actually been proof, evidence, that these guys that go in, these guys that go in -- these mass shooters will not go to a place where they know that people are armed. That's why it's become unsafe on our bases. Yes, they can't carry the weapons there. Now look what happened in Fort Hood and the naval base.

BOLLING: Look at the last mass murders.

GUILFOYLE: And he went and shot one and saw they had guns so he picked the one in Aurora.

BOLLING: Right. Newtown with kids, and the last --

GUILFOYLE: Naval and Fort Hood.

GUTFELD: The Aurora guy actively looked for a gun-free zone.

GUILFOYLE: Right. Dana Perino.

BECKEL: What if you're 18 years old, a senior in high school and you're allowed to buy guns? Do you bring your gun to school?

GUILFOYLE: Bob, that's not the discussion.

GUTFELD: I don't know. Maybe.

GUILFOYLE: Dana?

BOLLING: It's a good question.

BECKEL: Thank you.

BOLLING: That is a very, very good question.

PERINO: You're going to keep me up tonight thinking about that.

Here's the thing. We're talking about bars, we're talking about baristas. So, Starbucks.

This guy, Howard Schultz, he has been an activist CEO for quite a long time. And he's built a gigantic international business. So, this is what I would like. I'd like more activist CEOs that are willing to speak their minds and not have to whisper behind closed door how horrified they are about federal policy and the direction of the economy and how worried they are and then hope that other people will carry their water. I think it would be good if there were other CEOs who were willing to actually say what they feel like this Howard Schultz guy.

BECKEL: I think you're exactly right. The fact that he said ObamaCare was something that was good, not one of you are against ObamaCare with the exception to your money numbers there that there's any particular person who's suffering because of ObamaCare.

GUTFELD: Two hundred fifty-eight employers have slashed worker hours due to ObamaCare, which the government loves because less --

BECKEL: How many of them had not?

GUTFELD: Well, 258 is a lot of employers. And how many insurance companies have dropped out of it?

By the way, I'm saying the government loves this because the more people defend on the government, it's the only game in town. It's like going to Pennsylvania. You have to buy your booze at the ABC stores because nobody sells booze anywhere else. You go into an ABC store, it's really depressing.

PERINO: They changed that in Virginia.

GUTFELD: Really? Good for Virginia.

GUILFOYLE: I want to get to something, I feel like it. A little bit of Boehner and Obama, ObamaCare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We're going to continue to do everything we can to repeal the president's failed health care law. This week, the House will pass a C.R. that locks sequester savings in and defunds ObamaCare.

OBAMA: You have never seen, in the history of the United States, the debt ceiling or the threat of not raising the debt ceiling being used to extort a president or a governing party and trying to force issues that have nothing to do with the budget and have nothing to do with the debt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Well, I do think it has to do with the budget and the debt. That was one of the points of the movement, to defund ObamaCare. I don't -- they're going to get a vote in the House now. That probably was -- that wasn't going to happen just a few weeks ago. They push and pushed to the point that actually President Obama could be in a position where he would accept a one year delay. I think that would be smart politics for both sides, provide neutral ground and hopefully, they'll get it done before the 30th because I think playing chicken with all of this is chicken.

BECKEL: It is chicken, and it's chicken --

GUTFELD: Nice.

BECKEL: For Boehner to say a failed health care policy, he doesn't know what he's talking about. It hasn't failed yet, number one. Number two, if they would put all their energy --

PERINO: How has it succeeded?

GUILFOYLE: Because it hasn't failed yet.

BECKEL: This is the law of the land. It's not going to be repealed. Why not put your energy into changes you think are necessary instead of saying let's defund it?

PERINO: They've tried it. They've passed bill after bill that the Senate won't entertain.

BECKEL: We're talking about having -- sit down and have a comprehensive discussion about cross state lines to sell insurance, about the idea that somehow you can lower the costs of tort reforms.

PERINO: Those were all the things that they've asked for. President Obama is the one who shut down the government to prevent it.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: By the way, I'll tell you why it's a failure. It is incredibly unpopular among Americans. Not unpopular among the media, and that's the issue.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: Know more about it than the media does, who chose not to read it.

GUILFOYLE: Exactly.

GUTFELD: There's a disadvantage of being a conservative. You can never actually offer an alternative program because you believe in the market over the government. And then you leftists say, oh, the market isn't a solution. You need to have a program.

But no program works. If you look at the three areas where there are government programs, whether it's health care, retirement or education, they are oozing sores in America.

GUILFOYLE: Ew.

GUTFELD: They don't work.

BECKEL: And so is capitalism that's practiced by Wall Street.

GUTFELD: Capitalism --

BECKEL: The Lehman Brothers, they should have been brought up because not one of those punks went to jail. They should have. And they did more damage to this country in one week than anybody in ObamaCare has done in the entire history of this country.

GUTFELD: Every area infected by government suffers.

BECKEL: Every area affected by Wall Street crooks suffers.

GUILFOYLE: Who knew that this Starbucks segment would get so heated over a caramel macchiato?

Directly ahead, new developments for the search in the Benghazi investigation. A key State Department figure is grilled on Capitol Hill after more than a year. Are we any closer to accountability in this case? We're going to discuss it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: Some developments now on two stories we are following here on THE FIVE: Benghazi and the IRS scandal. So, first up, Benghazi.

Earlier today, the House Foreign Affairs Committee grilled State Department Undersecretary Patrick Kennedy on what his agency's actions were the night of the terror attack. And lawmakers pressed him for answers on accountability and responsibility that cost four Americans their lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TED POE (R), TEXAS: It would seem it me, in the normal world, which would be outside of government, if somebody reviewed a business or an entity and found that there were deficiencies and lack of leadership and lack of accountability, somebody would face the consequences. They would see the music. But not so with the government, especially the State Department.

REP. RANDY WEBER (R), TEXAS: Would you like the task of going to Mary Stevens and explaining to her that four people getting reassign is paying a price?

PATRICK KENNEDY, STATE DEPARTMENT UNDERSECRETARY: Sir, they were in the reassigned. They were relieved of their senior-level positions. That is a serious disciplinary action.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: So, Greg, are you buying that? Like he's saying basically -- he's not saying they got demoted. He's saying they got a new job within the State Department. They need to save face or something?

GUTFELD: You know what this is like? It's like when you're about to have company over. And you start hiding stuff all over. You put stuff under the bed. Put stuff in the closet.

An election was coming up. And they put Benghazi in the closet. They hid that. And Bob admits as much, they were having company over.

This isn't just about four dead. It's about one election. The White House and the media orchestrated separately in a sense maybe a lackadaisical cover-up, but it was a cover-up, nonetheless.

PERINO: Interest in this has remained high, Eric. And if you look at -- let's look at ratings, OK? When we talk about this, people want to listen to it. You can pretty much only find Benghazi coverage on FOX News Channel now.

What do you think the about this story that keeps America so interested?

BOLLING: Because we lost four Americans. President Obama wanted to bomb Syria, and we had lost no Americans in Syria. We're at risk of losing Americans in Syria.

So, the conservatives or the people who care about thing like that want some answers. He we haven't had.

I find it interesting that that gentleman, Kennedy, was up there. Where's -- honestly, where is Hillary? Now, that would be good TV, that'd be great to watch. And she could say at this point what does it matter anymore?

I'd like to hear Panetta. What he has to say.

But there's one guy -- I said this before -- there's one guy who I really want to know what he knows, and he went away very fast after Benghazi, and it's General Ham. Where is general -- I would love to hear what he knows because he may --

GUTFELD: He's on the lam.

BOLLING: He's laying low. He has the answer that I really need to know is who said -- hold on. Who said stand down? That's the only thing.

BECKEL: You explain to me why Isa or Issa, whatever his name is, has had 20-plus hearings on Benghazi and nobody's asked this question? Nobody has been able to find something out. That means he's a lousy chairman with a lousy investigator staff. I think the reason he's not finding it because it doesn't exist.

GUILFOYLE: What doesn't exist?

BECKEL: If there were mistakes -- and yes, they kept it off the front pages as much as they could before the election. I agree. I think there was an epic scandal here? Epic this.

GUTFELD: Bob, you just said they kept it off the front pages. That's epic.

BOLLING: You are pro-Syria bombing. You're like bomb the hell out of Syria.

BECKEL: Because they're using chemical against children.

BOLLING: Four Americans were killed.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: They were killing of women and children, that's why.

GUILFOYLE: No, no, he's not. No, he's not. It's because he supports Obama.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: So if the president says it's go time he's, like, I feel you. No, no, it's blown out of proportion. He's like I agree.

PERINO: Well, one of the questions is whether there would be a select committee. That's where the House and Senate get together, Senator Ted Cruz brought this up on the floor of the Senate today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: We need the president to make good on his promise of September 12th, 2012, quote, "to bring justice to the killers who attacked our people." That still has yet to happen.

Over the past year, it has become evident that we need a joint select committee to get these things because we have an administration that is actively trying to avoid learning more about Benghazi.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: So, a fairly reasonable argument, but that was nixed by Senator Barbara Boxer.

Let me get to the other story because the IRS scandal continues. And they billed this case, Greg. It turns out that now newly uncovered IRS documents show what we've been assuming all along is that they did flag a political groups for any anti-Obama rhetoric.

What do you think?

GUTFELD: This corruption is massive, for it provides evidence of an arm of government used as a political enforcer and it allows an avenue for Americans to actually get real change, real reform. I have to hand it to the president. He has taken a ream of scandals and turned it into a benefit. We can't keep our eye on the ball. There are more balls there than a McDonald's play pen.

PERINO: I love those.

BOLLING: You should go with Chuck E. Cheese.

GUTFELD: Yes. No, no, McDonald's has playpens. I know.

BECKEL: It's surprising you have IRS officials say they knew the White House didn't like the Tea Party people and they thought, OK, maybe we should investigate them? Is that possible?

GUTFELD: So wrong.

PERINO: You think but -- it's possible but it's not absolutely wrong.

BECKEL: When I think of certain people sometimes even at this table follow the line of FOX on certain things, yes.

PERINO: What? OK. It might be true, and it could wrong, and then it might be somebody behind me they're all looking at.

OK. We've got to move on.

Coming up, big decision by the Federal Reserve sends shockwaves through the market. Eric, thank goodness he's here, is going to explain why because I don't understand it -- ahead on THE FIVE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BECKEL: Welcome back. We just learned a serious situation, and that is --

GUILFOYLE: No. You know what, Bob? I swear to God.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Honest to God, you're the worst person.

BECKEL: Dana got Sandy Cooper (ph) stickers.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: It's not nice.

BECKEL: Welcome back.

Sorry, all you guys out there, but I believe we need more women in office. And a new study supports my theory.

Rice University says female politicians are much less likely than their male counterparts to engage in corruption and more likely to disapprove of it when they see it. Isn't that true?

Dana, with the sneakers.

PERINO: Yes. I love my new sneakers.

Here's what I was thinking about had it comes to this and women in office. Think back to Sarah Palin and one of the reason that she won governorship in Alaska was because she took on the corruption that was happening in the energy industry up there propelled her to that success.

I also think that one of the reasons you don't see this as much corruption with women and men is that traditionally, women are less risk averse, are more risk averse than men on lots of different things. Men are willing it let it ride and try -- Greg is shaking his head no -- but I'm pretty sure this is true. This is a theory that I have, that women are less corrupt.

BECKEL: What do you think of that theory?

GUTFELD: This study is B.S. linking gender to corruption is wrong. What they did was they looked at governments all around the world, including autocracies which are despots. Governments ruled by one man. So, it's despots that are more corrupt than democracies.

However, the researchers chose to look at genders instead of systems of government. It was never about gender put systems of government. It's despots that are more corrupt, not democracies. Bogus study.

BOLLING: When are you getting one?

BECKEL: I got all the way to the table and they called it off.

GUILFOYLE: Because they thought he was going to die on the table, right? I mean, come on.

BECKEL: It don't hurt that much.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: It's true. I just looked at the fact.

BECKEL: My experience, women in politics, every member of the United States Congress would be a woman.

BOLLING: Why?

BECKEL: Because they do a better job, they are more diligent and they're much less likely to rip people off.

GUILFOYLE: Bob wants more Pelosi.

GUTFELD: Sexists.

BOLLING: How about the most confident person --

GUILFOYLE: There's Nancy.

BOLLING: Whether they're male, female, white, black, gay, straight.

BECKEL: What does that say about Ted Cruz?

PERINO: What about him?

BOLLING: Harvard graduate and elected.

BECKEL: Yes, (INAUDIBLE) which he knows nothing about but he talks about it all the time.

GUILFOYLE: Bob, wow, wow. What's in your cup today?

BECKEL: Nothing's in my cup. It was going to be your cup tomorrow.

GUILFOYLE: Some crazy Kool-Aid?

BECKEL: Greg, where did you get this despot thing? First of all --

GUTFELD: I actually read the research. They looked at autocracies which are governments ruled by one man. It was never about gender. It was about systems of government.

But researchers to this all the time so they get more grants. And we fell for it.

BECKEL: We look at scandals in the U.S. Congress. Very few have involved women.

GUTFELD: They only involve Kennedys.

PERINO: Because there's not many women in Congress.

BECKEL: Well, there's 20 percent.

GUTFELD: It's not about America. It's about other countries.

GUILFOYLE: He wants more women in Congress like his girlfriend, Barbara Boxers.

BECKEL: "One More Thing" is up next.

GUILFOYLE: I'm not getting along with you today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: All right, it's time for "One More Thing".

First, I want to wish happy birthday to my sister Liz (ph) who turned 50 today. Happy birthday.

GUILFOYLE: Happy birthday.

GUTFELD: My one more thing, BBC newscaster Simon McCoy is doing a story about privately run drunk tank. He thought he brought out his iPad, but turns out he brought out a ream of copy paper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TV ANCHOR: Plans for privately run drunk tank to tackle alcohol disorder have been back by police chiefs. Under the proposal, drunk troublemakers would be taken to cells run by private firms and have to pay for it once they've sobered up. The association of chief police officer says problem drinking is on the increase and action is needed to deal with it.

But the police federation which represents rank and file officers says the plan is neither a viable nor a long-term fix. This report from Graham Thatchel (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Greatest thing I've ever seen. Beautiful. Just beautiful.

Dana?

PERINO: I'm going to do double dip one more thing, too. I want to wish happy birthday to Frank whose birthday was on Monday and I didn't have a chance on Monday. So, happy birthday to you in Michigan.

I also want to ask everybody who is watching THE FIVE to say a prayer tonight for Paul Baer. He is 6 years old. This is Brett's son, and he's going it in for open-heart surgery tomorrow morning. This will be his third open-heart surgery. He's had seven angioplasties and a stomach surgery that was unrelated.

This is such a loving family and Paul Baer, I've known since he was a tiny little baby that has his first surgery. Probably harder on the parents than it is on him, but everybody be wishing them good luck tomorrow.

BECKEL: Absolutely.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

BOLLING: Amen.

GUILFOYLE: Praying for him.

GUTFELD: Eric?

BOLLING: I'll light a candle for Paul tomorrow at St. Patrick's.

OK. So, today at 2: 0, Fed Chairman Bernanke made an announcement. A lot of people were expecting them to scale back to $85 billion per month they're priming the system with, Ben Bernanke.

Pull up the chart.

Said, you know what? We're going to continue to prime the system. There's the 2:00 number. There is a huge 200-point rally in the Dow.

But the point is, folks, what that means is $85 billion per month is going to continue to make the banks more whole. This money is not going to you or me or anyone else. It's going right into the banking system.

Any question, your checking account gets less than half a percent interest. If you go to borrow money from the bank, they're going to charge your more than 4 percent. They're making that spread.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: OK, I want to show you a chart here that was courtesy of "The Huffington Post". These are the number of mass shootings that have happened in this country since Newtown. And it only goes to show you that these rampant use of guns everywhere in the country, this many mass shootings, and the more than there have been in a long time.

GUTFELD: That's since Newtown.

BECKEL: That's just since Newtown.

GUTFELD: What were the casualties involved?

BECKEL: Excuse me, did I interrupt your --

GUTFELD: What you did is a little cheap thing. We did a gun segment, but you waited until the end to do it so nobody could respond.

BECKEL: This is my one more thing. I wish you'd leave me alone.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, now, you want to be left alone, Bob. You're lucky we're out of time. I'll be back with you Friday.

OK, let's talk about Mark --

BECKEL: You'll be a little sore.

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: You win the award, Bob. You're the worst person on the planet today.

OK. Mark Wahlberg, never too late to go back and get your high school diploma. He went back to prove a point to his children. See, this is professionalism, ladies and gentlemen, because besides Bob's buffoonery and behavior and poor taste -- congratulations, Mark Wahlberg, on getting your diploma.

BECKEL: Good luck tomorrow. There's 40 second left.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Bob, it's not your --

GUTFELD: "Special Report" is up next.

Content and Programming Copyright 2013 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2013 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.