• With: Dr. Michael Baden

    This is a rush transcript from "On the Record," July 2, 2013. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

    GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: Right now, the forensic evidence, Zimmerman's defense lawyer questioning the lead investigator about the fatal gunshot.


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The medical examiner's report and its findings were consistent with Mr. Zimmerman's story, were they not?


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. As far as how he shot him, correct, where he shot him?


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the distance between the muzzle of the gun and the clothing, correct?


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And also that there was a gap of a few inches between the clothing and Mr. Martin's chest, correct?


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evidencing that the muzzle of the gun was up against the chest -- up against the shirt, that the shirt was not up against the chest, that there was a few inch difference?


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right? And didn't that support the contention that Mr. Martin was hanging over Mr. Zimmerman, his shirt coming forward when the shot was fired?




    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because had he been standing up as I am now, the shirt would be up against the chest, probably, right?

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably, yes.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if I lean over, my shirt is going to fall apart from my chest a few inches, and that seems to be how it was, correct?


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The medical examiner's report, however, does not support a contention, an allegation that Mr. Zimmerman pressed that gun against Trayvon Martin's chest before he fired it, does it.


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Matter of fact, the known evidence completely contradicts that type of a suggestion, doesn't it.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From what I understand, yes.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So no pressing of the gun against the chest, was there.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not based on evidence that I read, no.


    VAN SUSTEREN: Forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden joins us. Before we even get to the merits of this, I got to tell you, Dr. Baden, is that why in the world the prosecution didn't object to this -- this witness clearly was not qualified to testify as he was testifying as to what the medical examiner said someplace else.

    But I don't know where the prosecutors are. They must be sleeping. And then the oldest trick in the book, they let the defense lawyer -- he kept holding up his hands to show the gap between the sweatshirt and the body, as though the guys was wearing a 3X and he was a small guy, you know, a big huge sweatshirt, which is the oldest trick in the book.

    But anyway, that's another issue. Tell me the importance of that -- of the study of that sweatshirt and the bullet wound.

    DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, the problem is -- to begin with, Greta, you're absolutely right. There's nothing mention of the clothing in the autopsy report. The body is received nude. The clothing got to the M.E. office, but there's a separate receipt for the clothing. But nobody in the M.E. office seems to have looked at the clothing. So all of what the detective was agreeing to was not true.

    What is true is that it was not a contact wound. The muzzle was not up against the skin at the time the autopsy was done. We can see that. But it was within two or three inches away. The stippling was about two inches in diameter, and that would be about two or three inches away. But that has to be evaluated by the criminalist, who does test firing of the weapon, and we have nothing about that. So far, there's been nothing in the records about the clothing.

    VAN SUSTEREN: And if you look at the defense lawyer on the screen, he's holding up his fingers as though it's about six inches, this big gap. And the jury's looking at him as he's doing this. And the prosecution's sitting there, not complaining! I can't for the life of me think -- - I mean, aren't they paying attention?

    But let me ask you the question. I mean, can you examine the sweatshirt and the wound on the decedent's body and make a determination to see if that sweatshirt was away from the body? And can you estimate the damage? But you can estimate -- but can you look at that and estimate that?

    BADEN: Yes, the criminalist will probably do that. The medical examiner can also see the spread of the stippling and the soot that comes out of the muzzle of the gun and how wide it is on the outermost clothing.

    The hoodie probably is the most important piece of the clothing to be able to measure that, and that will tell you how far away the muzzle is from that outer garment because once it hits clothing, the stippling spreads in different directions, so that what winds up on the skin is not necessarily the distance from the muzzle of the gun.

    VAN SUSTEREN: All right, but just so I'm clear, can you establish whether there's a gap between the sweatshirt and the body? Because that's -- if he's leaning over and on top of George Zimmerman, you would expect the sweatshirt to drop a bit.

    BADEN: Yes. No, you can't tell the distance of the outermost garment, which is what's most important, from the skin, except by the medical examiner. You can by common sense perhaps, but by determining the ballistics tests, which aren't in evidence at all yet, one could get a good idea of how far the muzzle is, the gun is from the clothing at the time of discharge and the direction it's going in. So it gives you the idea of the general...