• With: Whole Foods CEO John Mackey

    VAN SUSTEREN: Up next, more with Whole Foods CEO John Mackey. This could spell trouble for many Americans. Mackey says ObamaCare will lead to less full time jobs. You need to hear this. That's next.


    VAN SUSTEREN: Yesterday, Whole Foods CEO John Mackey compared ObamaCare to fascism. Now his word choice set some on fire, so today, John Mackey explained.


    VAN SUSTEREN: This is a controversy, and I take it you dialed it back. I think you called the ObamaCare, I think the term you used was "fascist." You've now dialed that one back a bit?

    MACKEY: That was a very poor choice of words on my part. I asked about the question, the differences do I think it's socialistic, and I gave a definition of socialism and a definition of fascism, and I think it's closer to that.

    However, what I didn't realize, there's so much emotional baggage with that term dating back to Germany and Spain and Italy in World War II, that's just a loaded word, very politically incorrect, can't use it.

    So, now I just want to say I believe in free enterprise capitalism or conscious capitalism the way we've articulated in the book. My problem with where health care is it's very government controlled and it's becoming more government controlled. So it's the opposite of free enterprise capitalism.

    VAN SUSTEREN: What's the problem with that? I take it you're not a fan of ObamaCare and I read your op-ed in the "Wall Street Journal." Why don't you like ObamaCare?

    MACKEY: Well, I think it's raising the costs for business. We have a great health care plan that our team members vote on every three years.

    VAN SUSTEREN: Meaning your employees at Whole Foods.

    MACKEY: Yes.


    MACKEY: They like it. It's been a good -- we've been able to customize it, keep it very affordable and we can include everybody in it, so it's a really good plan.

    And now, with the health care reforms, they're adding additional costs onto it, like we have to cover free checkups, checkups have to be free for physical, things like that, and cover people that are up to age 26, even though they're just dependents that have grown up. Those aren't free. Those cost things.

    And now there's going to be with lobbying and crony capitalism with the health care act you're going to see lots of new mandates on and determine what we can do. So our freedom to customize our health care plan to the best for our team members has been compromised.

    VAN SUSTEREN: And this health care is a growing nightmare for a lot of businesses because of the costs.

    MACKEY: Yes.

    VAN SUSTEREN: And people really are unsure of what it's going to do to business. Do you have a sense how it's going to affect your business in two years, three years, or four years?

    MACKEY: Yes, I can tell you generally what will happen. As the costs go up, you're not required to provide health care for part-time workers, under 30 hours. So there will be a strong temptation for businesses to keep people under 30 hours, so they don't have to provide health care. And you will have a lot of part-time workers and fewer full-time workers, a lot of people underemployed.

    Whole Foods prided itself, we've always had a higher mix of full-time to part-time workers like 80 percent full-time and 20 percent part-time, which is very rare in retail. But as I suspect as our health care costs are driven up by health care reforms then we'll end up gradually lower our full-time ratio to a much lower number.

    VAN SUSTEREN: In your book, do you think that your ideas are easily converted to other types of industries?

    MACKEY: Absolutely.

    VAN SUSTEREN: So your book is not just limited to your business?

    MACKEY: Absolutely not. We wrote this book primarily to help businesses become more conscious. I think that capitalism is the greatest thing in the world, but we can make it better. If businesses can become more conscious on their higher purposes and begin to create value for all of their shareholders and stakeholders, the world is going to be transformed.

    VAN SUSTEREN: If you could have five minutes with President Obama to talk about what would make it easier to get more jobs in this country, any hints for him?

    MACKEY: Cut corporate income tax and dial back on regulations. Let entrepreneurs do their thing. They're creative individuals. We can solve all the problems that are in the world through our own creative entrepreneurship and through nonprofit social entrepreneurship. And we need to liberate the entrepreneurial spirit and the heroic spirit of business.

    VAN SUSTEREN: Nice to see you, and good luck with the book.

    MACKEY: Thanks, Greta. Good to see you, too.